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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 19:47:50 GMT -5
Damnit now my post is wrapped up in this silly 'board hivemind sentiment. At least you made fun of it haha You know I love ya...and so does the board. I'd get a restraining order. I will. AGAINST YOU. EDIT: "Kash Flagg you s'posed to be a thousand feet away from my house!"
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Post by Kash Flagg on Sept 10, 2013 19:51:13 GMT -5
Awww sonovabitch!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 19:51:25 GMT -5
I just gotta say, man. Some of y'all sound like shitty coworkers.
Dude, if I like cleaning toilets then get the praise for doing so and get happy about it, who the **** is you to mock me about it? Just because you think the job is the shits doesn't mean everyone else should. People in the back mocking her and choosing to take advantage of her for showing the "wrong" type of passion is because the company is filled with petty asswipes.
That ain't AJ's fault and her having to hide it just makes the company look shitty, but eh... I do agree a lot of this is gender-based too.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 19:52:44 GMT -5
I do agree a lot of this is gender-based too. You're right, because most of the time when a male wrestler celebrates winning a title, we take the piss out of them almost immediately.
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Sparkybob
King Koopa
I have a status?
Posts: 11,001
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Post by Sparkybob on Sept 10, 2013 19:55:35 GMT -5
I do agree a lot of this is gender-based too. You're right, because most of the time when a male wrestler celebrates winning a title, we take the piss out of them almost immediately. Can you give specific examples? Because from what I remember not a lot of people were shitting on people like Eddie/Christian/Krispen Wah/Edge for being in tears for winning there first world title.
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Sektor
Unicron
The OTHER Big Red Machine.
Posts: 2,808
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Post by Sektor on Sept 10, 2013 19:56:46 GMT -5
I do agree a lot of this is gender-based too. You're right, because most of the time when a male wrestler celebrates winning a title, we take the piss out of them almost immediately. Yeah, like that time we all were so happy that Jack Swagger showed no emotion upon winning the WHC. Wait, I think I screwed that up. More like that time we all shat on DB for celebrating his MITB win...Damnit, that's not right either. Whatever, I tried.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
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Post by FinalGwen on Sept 10, 2013 19:57:25 GMT -5
1. By showing their kids why they love Batman? By introducing them to Batman themselves and bonding over the mutual interest? 2. That scenario is highly unlikely. Anyway, getting on bad terms with the WWE doesn't mean that AJ still won't love wrestling. She won the biggest prize a female wrestler can win. Good terms or not, that will never stop being special. 1. You can do that without a tattoo. I think a tattoo should be something that's a major life accomplishment. Having a child would be worthy of a tattoo, getting married to someone you're in love with would be worthy of a tattoo, a quote that got you through a rough time in your life would be worthy, Military platoon numbers, dates of service. The date where you were given a prop in an entertainment company should not be a major life accomplishment. She should view it as a way to make more money, a way to market herself but she doesn't she's a mark for a belt that was given to her. That's all. 2. She did "win" the top title a woman can win but the question is, should she care? I mean, it's a professional industry you don't want to look like a fan in the locker room and she'd stand out as a mark because to my knowledge no other wrestler has a tattoo marking the date that they "made it" 1. "Well, kids, I really like Batman and it was important to me." That simple. 2. So basically, if she does what you want and become an emotionless shell, she might forget how she achieved her dream, and come to possibly regret the unobtrusive tattoo that she'll never see without a mirror? I'm sure she'll be heartbroken- Oh wait, no, even in that situation she won't care, since she'll be devoid of these human things called feelings. I didn't say she had to be emotionless. Why is a photo and a replica belt on the wall of her living room not good enough? I mean it'd be a great conversation piece and she can simply put it away when something becomes more important to her (Such as children, husband etc) But a businesswoman wouldn't want a photo or a replica belt! That's too like being a fan! (And of course, she should ignore her own passions and interests and go and have some kids already.)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 19:59:21 GMT -5
You're right, because most of the time when a male wrestler celebrates winning a title, we take the piss out of them almost immediately. Can you give specific examples? Because from what I remember not a lot of people were shitting on people like Eddie/Christian/Krispen Wah/Edge for being in tears for winning there first world title. I should probably rephrase, it's not so much the celebration aspect, but them just winning the title becomes a subject of mockery. ADR, Orton and Kofi are pretty obvious examples. Specific to a celebration itself, Triple H's self-aggrandizing never got treated kindly. Cena's speeches about being a real wrestler doing really real wrestling, etc., while within the realm of kayfabe, may also apply.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 20:02:55 GMT -5
I just gotta say, man. Some of y'all sound like shitty coworkers. Dude, if I like cleaning toilets then get the praise for doing so, who the **** is you to mock me about it? Just because you think the job is the shits doesn't mean everyone else should. People in the back mocking her and choosing to take advantage of her for showing the "wrong" type of passion is because the company is filled with petty asswipes. That ain't AJ's fault and her having to hide it just makes the company look shitty, but eh... I do agree a lot of this is gender-based too. The way the announcers talked over her last night while she was trying to heel it up and get her point across was crazy disrespectful. Definitely smacked of sexism, plus it made her sympathetic and less heelish. And to her credit, she just kept plowing through. She winning me over more every day because of stuff like that. Mind you, this is a company where the owner wanted to do an angle where he was banging his daughter!, booked himself to make out with and humiliate multiple women, thought he could compete with the NFL, the list goes on and on and on. It's ALL about ego. But, 'wrong' person/gender has an ego that manifests itself in the 'wrong' way, DIS BIZNISS DON'T BE A MARK GAWD! It's so dumb from the outside, they're so insulated they can't see it. I'm not banging on Meltzer for this by the way, he's simply telling us how these people are.
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SOR
Unicron
Posts: 2,611
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Post by SOR on Sept 10, 2013 20:04:31 GMT -5
1. You can do that without a tattoo. I think a tattoo should be something that's a major life accomplishment. Having a child would be worthy of a tattoo, getting married to someone you're in love with would be worthy of a tattoo, a quote that got you through a rough time in your life would be worthy, Military platoon numbers, dates of service. The date where you were given a prop in an entertainment company should not be a major life accomplishment. She should view it as a way to make more money, a way to market herself but she doesn't she's a mark for a belt that was given to her. That's all. 2. She did "win" the top title a woman can win but the question is, should she care? I mean, it's a professional industry you don't want to look like a fan in the locker room and she'd stand out as a mark because to my knowledge no other wrestler has a tattoo marking the date that they "made it" 1. People get tattoos for various reasons. It's freedom of expression. People get inked for things they love. Look at CM Punk. He's got a damn Pepsi logo on his shoulder and a GI Joe logo on the other. If pro wrestling is your life, what exactly is wrong with celebrating reaching as high as you can go? She's dreamed about it her entire life. She's a fan. There is nothing wrong with that. Plenty of pro wrestlers are pro wrestling fans. It's why most went into the business to begin with. You see all those videos of the Hardyz in their backyard? What about the ones of Cena as a kid? What about the one of AJ standing in line for a wrestling show and crying when meeting Lita? To some, it's a business. For others, it's their dream job they love because they're fans first. 2. No other wrestlers have tattoos marking said date, to our knowledge. They just have shrines in their homes filled with nothing but props from a entertainment company. The way you're talking, no wrestler ever should care about what they do or get emotional about anything. Nobody should tear up when getting inducted into the Hall of Fame. Hell, there shouldn't even be a Hall of Fame. After all, they're not real accomplishments. It's all phony and entertainment. 1. CM Punk is also silly for the amount of tattoo's he has. "I like Pepsi" should not be a reason for getting a tattoo. And yes, it's cool she's a fan nothing wrong with that my point is she should be more professional. For example, would it be okay if she requested autographs and photos with active talent? No. You need to treat it like a business even if you are secretly a fan on the inside. 2. And in my mind, that's fine. I don't know what wrestlers have but if we go with Actors who have props you could probably have that as a conversation piece. Maybe you used a gun in a famous movie and that's in your house and you can show that to guests. Maybe you have a box of promotional photos that you can look at and think about your time on set. That's all fine and it's okay to take that seriously, the problem is when people take these things so seriously that it kind of bleeds over into your personal life and you start believing your own hype. She didn't win a belt, it wasn't a competition, someone laid down and let her win. It's not an accomplishment it's a marketing tool. The only reason she should be happy she won the Diva's Title is that in future when/if she gets released she can make money on the indies by advertising herself as "Former WWE Diva's Champion" that's it. Now, The Hall Of Fame is a little different and is a legitimate achievement. The Hall Of Fame celebrates these men and women as workers and entertainers. If the Hall Of Fame strictly inducted people based on what they did from a kayfabe perspective it'd be a joke wouldn't it? "We're inducting Hulk Hogan for beating Andre The Giant at WrestleMania 3" it doesn't work that way. AJ Lee is celebrating the fact that Kaitlyn laid down for her in front of a few thousand people.
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Post by Clueless Steve on Sept 10, 2013 20:08:30 GMT -5
...
I give up.
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Sept 10, 2013 20:16:32 GMT -5
Meltzer oughtta be careful ridiculing people with tattoos. Because I know about the tramp stamp tattoo he has of Misawa with the caption '5 Stars Forever' underneath it. So far it has been claimed Meltzer has a tat commemorating the first time he gave a five star rating on his ass and now this tramp stamp tat to boot. Just how many stars involving 5 stars does Meltzer have on or around his ass? My guess is 5. Unless we count the tat celebrating Tiger Mask and Dynamite Kid he has on his testicels (Tiger on right, Dynamite on left) as two seperate tats.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Sept 10, 2013 20:33:29 GMT -5
Uh, okay, so, Meltzer goes out of his way to put down wrestlers who act like fans.
But Meltzer is a fan who is adopting an attitude held by wrestlers, and actually justifying his on jerkish behavior by saying "People who work at wrestling companies do it!" That, uh, seems worse.
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Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
Posts: 5,185
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Post by Chip on Sept 10, 2013 20:42:43 GMT -5
Meltzer oughtta be careful ridiculing people with tattoos. Because I know about the tramp stamp tattoo he has of Misawa with the caption '5 Stars Forever' underneath it. So far it has been claimed Meltzer has a tat commemorating the first time he gave a five star rating on his ass and now this tramp stamp tat to boot. Just how many stars involving 5 stars does Meltzer have on or around his ass? My guess is 5. Unless we count the tat celebrating Tiger Mask and Dynamite Kid he has on his testicels (Tiger on right, Dynamite on left) as two seperate tats. Meltzer has this party trick where he drops his trousers and underwear to show his ass cheeks. Each cheek has two stars tattooed on it in a horizontal line. This is often met with "Wheres the 5th star Dave?" In reply to this Dave reaches back, grabs a hold of each cheek, spreads them and says "There's your 5th star".
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Sept 10, 2013 20:47:55 GMT -5
Yeah let's criticize someone who faced a lot of hardships in life and got a tattoo to commemorate her finally realizing her dream A lot of wrestlers go through knee-deep shit to realize their dreams. I mean no disrespect to AJ but I just don't get this defense. Were her hardships more valid than other wrestlers who get roundly criticized on here? Who said anything about anyone else? All I said is that AJ went through shit and beat it and feels proud about it. Hardships are hardships, I don't give a flying f*** whose was worse, the fact is she had shit to get past and accomplished that.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 10, 2013 20:59:27 GMT -5
Ok, I think a lot of people here are missing the overall point.
I'll make one thing clear: the way Meltzer seemed to be discussing it came off as condescending, and could easily be interpreted as belittling something that is, at least in name, the highest achievement a woman can reach in the WWE. There had to be a better way of saying what he appears to be saying.
But here's the thing: a lot of you are pointing out something totally true, that "belt marks" (or whatever phrase you want to use) are much more easily manipulated or used by the wrestling industry, which, should anybody have any illusions about it, is utterly trashy, carny, and still trapped in an early 20th century mindset from a business perspective. It's brutal, and eats people alive.
However, this goes beyond AJ herself.
If one wrestler is put in a position like that and the company feels they can take advantage of him/her, it's going to have an effect on that wrestler's co-workers.
This is especially true in a company like WWE, where nobody is truly an independent contractor; if the company perceives that they can bring in and use these "fans-turned-wrestlers", pay them less, feature them more, etc. etc. etc., then it offers the company an avenue by which they can pay people less for doing more work, as the company will figure "these marks will do whatever we ask".
Does this mean that AJ, on her own, is causing something like this, or should be blamed for something like that? Not really; she's young, she's excited, she's genuinely proud of winning that belt.
However, it's a cumulative effect, and in an industry where wrestlers NEED to band together to be treated fairly, gestures like tattooing the date of your first title win, again, particularly for a title that's considered unimportant by the company, offers the company a potential weakness to exploit.
This is far less a condemnation of AJ, however, than a condemnation of the wrestling industry as a whole. I think Meltzer was kind of looking at this sadly from a "man, these wrestlers just make life harder for themselves" perspective, but again, he said it in a condescending way that hardly seemed appropriate.
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EyeofTyr
Hank Scorpio
Strange and Mystical
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Post by EyeofTyr on Sept 10, 2013 21:07:01 GMT -5
I think the tattoo's ugly and incredibly unoriginal, but that aside, I have no qualms with it and respect the fact that it was something so important to her that she felt she wanted it marked to flesh.
I think if people are to mock AJ's reasoning for getting the tattoo they'd have to look to men like Orton, with his generic and ugly ass sleeves. Or Punk, who has more than once said some of his tattoos were spur of the moment & not something important, just something cool. Personally, even those gentlemen I wouldn't throw stones at for their reasoning to do to their bodies what they did. Even if I don't think the tattoos are particularly good or interesting.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Sept 10, 2013 21:12:29 GMT -5
1. People get tattoos for various reasons. It's freedom of expression. People get inked for things they love. Look at CM Punk. He's got a damn Pepsi logo on his shoulder and a GI Joe logo on the other. If pro wrestling is your life, what exactly is wrong with celebrating reaching as high as you can go? She's dreamed about it her entire life. She's a fan. There is nothing wrong with that. Plenty of pro wrestlers are pro wrestling fans. It's why most went into the business to begin with. You see all those videos of the Hardyz in their backyard? What about the ones of Cena as a kid? What about the one of AJ standing in line for a wrestling show and crying when meeting Lita? To some, it's a business. For others, it's their dream job they love because they're fans first. 2. No other wrestlers have tattoos marking said date, to our knowledge. They just have shrines in their homes filled with nothing but props from a entertainment company. The way you're talking, no wrestler ever should care about what they do or get emotional about anything. Nobody should tear up when getting inducted into the Hall of Fame. Hell, there shouldn't even be a Hall of Fame. After all, they're not real accomplishments. It's all phony and entertainment. 1. CM Punk is also silly for the amount of tattoo's he has. "I like Pepsi" should not be a reason for getting a tattoo. And yes, it's cool she's a fan nothing wrong with that my point is she should be more professional. For example, would it be okay if she requested autographs and photos with active talent? No. You need to treat it like a business even if you are secretly a fan on the inside. 2. And in my mind, that's fine. I don't know what wrestlers have but if we go with Actors who have props you could probably have that as a conversation piece. Maybe you used a gun in a famous movie and that's in your house and you can show that to guests. Maybe you have a box of promotional photos that you can look at and think about your time on set. That's all fine and it's okay to take that seriously, the problem is when people take these things so seriously that it kind of bleeds over into your personal life and you start believing your own hype. She didn't win a belt, it wasn't a competition, someone laid down and let her win. It's not an accomplishment it's a marketing tool. The only reason she should be happy she won the Diva's Title is that in future when/if she gets released she can make money on the indies by advertising herself as "Former WWE Diva's Champion" that's it. Now, The Hall Of Fame is a little different and is a legitimate achievement. The Hall Of Fame celebrates these men and women as workers and entertainers. If the Hall Of Fame strictly inducted people based on what they did from a kayfabe perspective it'd be a joke wouldn't it? "We're inducting Hulk Hogan for beating Andre The Giant at WrestleMania 3" it doesn't work that way. AJ Lee is celebrating the fact that Kaitlyn laid down for her in front of a few thousand people. I can't help but feel that you are spectacularly missing the point here. We're talking about a woman who made a decision as a child to follow her dream and rise to the top of her chosen profession. If a businesswoman chose to tattoo the date of her earning her first million, would that really be so different? Regardless of whether you consider what she achieved noteworthy (I'd consider it far more noteworthy than crapping out a kid or two, and that's speaking as a father-to-be), few people can say they achieved their dream and it's childish to mock them for how they choose to mark the moment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 21:27:31 GMT -5
Ok, I think a lot of people here are missing the overall point. I'll make one thing clear: the way Meltzer seemed to be discussing it came off as condescending, and could easily be interpreted as belittling something that is, at least in name, the highest achievement a woman can reach in the WWE. There had to be a better way of saying what he appears to be saying. But here's the thing: a lot of you are pointing out something totally true, that "belt marks" (or whatever phrase you want to use) are much more easily manipulated or used by the wrestling industry, which, should anybody have any illusions about it, is utterly trashy, carny, and still trapped in an early 20th century mindset from a business perspective. It's brutal, and eats people alive. However, this goes beyond AJ herself.If one wrestler is put in a position like that and the company feels they can take advantage of him/her, it's going to have an effect on that wrestler's co-workers. This is especially true in a company like WWE, where nobody is truly an independent contractor; if the company perceives that they can bring in and use these "fans-turned-wrestlers", pay them less, feature them more, etc. etc. etc., then it offers the company an avenue by which they can pay people less for doing more work, as the company will figure "these marks will do whatever we ask". Does this mean that AJ, on her own, is causing something like this, or should be blamed for something like that? Not really; she's young, she's excited, she's genuinely proud of winning that belt. However, it's a cumulative effect, and in an industry where wrestlers NEED to band together to be treated fairly, gestures like tattooing the date of your first title win, again, particularly for a title that's considered unimportant by the company, offers the company a potential weakness to exploit. This is far less a condemnation of AJ, however, than a condemnation of the wrestling industry as a whole. I think Meltzer was kind of looking at this sadly from a "man, these wrestlers just make life harder for themselves" perspective, but again, he said it in a condescending way that hardly seemed appropriate. On that same level, I remember someone (forgot who it was) mentioning that Bret Hart was selfish for taking less money from the WWF (i.e. being a "belt mark") because it had a trickle down effect on the rest of the roster. Hogan was someone who demanded a lot of money, but in doing so, it made other people more money as well. If your top star (and AJ might be their top star as far as women go) is more concerned with fake belts than he/she is about money or the business aspect of things, then it will definitely hurt the rest of the roster. This is probably over-analyzing things, as the WWE likely sees everyone (save for maybe Cena) as replaceable parts, so if AJ left it really wouldn't make a lick of difference to them, but being a "belt mark" certainly has a downside from where Meltzer is likely viewing it from, and I can definitely see why wrestlers would look down on that. Going back to the tattoo standpoint, the fact that she is being mocked for it is overblown. It's a tattoo! It's not like she is being mocked for her race or gender or things she has no control over. She voluntarily tattooed the date of when she won a fake title on her neck. That's going to get some comments from people who view wrestling as a business. If I got a tattoo of the date I got promoted at my job, I'd never hear the end of it, and that is something tangible and meaningful. What happened to AJ was the equivalent of my boss telling me "we are going to make you fake VP today" and then me having run to my nearest tattoo parlor to have the date engraved on my body. Ultimately, this is a big deal over nothing.
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EyeofTyr
Hank Scorpio
Strange and Mystical
Posts: 5,744
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Post by EyeofTyr on Sept 10, 2013 21:37:31 GMT -5
Ok, I think a lot of people here are missing the overall point. I'll make one thing clear: the way Meltzer seemed to be discussing it came off as condescending, and could easily be interpreted as belittling something that is, at least in name, the highest achievement a woman can reach in the WWE. There had to be a better way of saying what he appears to be saying. But here's the thing: a lot of you are pointing out something totally true, that "belt marks" (or whatever phrase you want to use) are much more easily manipulated or used by the wrestling industry, which, should anybody have any illusions about it, is utterly trashy, carny, and still trapped in an early 20th century mindset from a business perspective. It's brutal, and eats people alive. However, this goes beyond AJ herself.If one wrestler is put in a position like that and the company feels they can take advantage of him/her, it's going to have an effect on that wrestler's co-workers. This is especially true in a company like WWE, where nobody is truly an independent contractor; if the company perceives that they can bring in and use these "fans-turned-wrestlers", pay them less, feature them more, etc. etc. etc., then it offers the company an avenue by which they can pay people less for doing more work, as the company will figure "these marks will do whatever we ask". Does this mean that AJ, on her own, is causing something like this, or should be blamed for something like that? Not really; she's young, she's excited, she's genuinely proud of winning that belt. However, it's a cumulative effect, and in an industry where wrestlers NEED to band together to be treated fairly, gestures like tattooing the date of your first title win, again, particularly for a title that's considered unimportant by the company, offers the company a potential weakness to exploit. This is far less a condemnation of AJ, however, than a condemnation of the wrestling industry as a whole. I think Meltzer was kind of looking at this sadly from a "man, these wrestlers just make life harder for themselves" perspective, but again, he said it in a condescending way that hardly seemed appropriate. On that same level, I remember someone (forgot who it was) mentioning that Bret Hart was selfish for taking less money from the WWF (i.e. being a "belt mark") because it had a trickle down effect on the rest of the roster. Hogan was someone who demanded a lot of money, but in doing so, it made other people more money as well. If your top star (and AJ might be their top star as far as women go) is more concerned with fake belts than he/she is about money or the business aspect of things, then it will definitely hurt the rest of the roster. This is probably over-analyzing things, as the WWE likely sees everyone (save for maybe Cena) as replaceable parts, so if AJ left it really wouldn't make a lick of difference to them, but being a "belt mark" certainly has a downside from where Meltzer is likely viewing it from, and I can definitely see why wrestlers would look down on that. Going back to the tattoo standpoint, the fact that she is being mocked for it is overblown. It's a tattoo! It's not like she is being mocked for her race or gender or things she has no control over. She voluntarily tattooed the date of when she won a fake title on her neck. That's going to get some comments from people who view wrestling as a business. If I got a tattoo of the date I got promoted at my job, I'd never hear the end of it, and that is something tangible and meaningful. What happened to AJ was the equivalent of my boss telling me "we are going to make you fake VP today" and then me having run to my nearest tattoo parlor to have the date engraved on my body. Ultimately, this is a big deal over nothing. Not sure if you meant somebody on the board or somebody within the industry, because I know Nash & Hall and Hogan have all said in more recent times something similar about Hart. How his willingness to take less pay just to have the belt hurt the bottom dollar of all those under him when he was champion. Because it allowed the office to point to him and say "What, you expect to make more than the WWF Champion?" and essentially use him as a pawn.
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