SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Sept 17, 2013 22:19:37 GMT -5
If a character has no more room to grow, it's time to retire that character. It's complete. You can't just manufacture or write things around a character who has already learned and experienced everything. At that point, it's time to move on. so if you enjoy the completed character more than the journey you're out of luck then? and if the performed is say 28 and in a business where the fans are quite happy to always remind you they know who you used to be, you're also out of luck? That's poor logic when athletic prowess can more than make up for storytelling deficiencies. I have no more desire to see a chracter go away because he's a complete person than I would seeing a football player retiring after he won a Super Bowl. If you're speaking of Cena, his story is far from over. His character has years of potential ups and downs to face. But say, a Mr. McMahon for example? I don't think there's much he can do anymore without repeating old stories --other than maybe having him full on go senile, and think it's 1987 still. I'd mark for that. Alzheimer's Vince coming out in the powder blue WWF blazer and sitting at the commentary table, calling JBL "Jesse" and Lawler "Brain".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2013 22:32:50 GMT -5
This isn't really indicative of anything, but I remember one of my friends had an interesting description of pro wrestling and why she didn't watch it.
She said, AND I QUOTE:
"I saw pro-wrestling when my little brother would watch it and I just never cared for it. It was like a soap opera for little boys and I hate soap operas."
Her description always stuck out to me.
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Post by Loser troll. Please ban me on Sept 17, 2013 22:38:41 GMT -5
Until he returns and the spotlight gets refixed right back on him.
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Crimson
Hank Scorpio
Thank you DWade
Posts: 6,511
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Post by Crimson on Sept 18, 2013 7:20:22 GMT -5
They sort of tried that last year with giving Cena feuds independent of Punk's title reign. He ended up jacking Punk's storylines (Johnny Ace, AJ Lee) twice. I know this is getting old, but Cena needs to go heel. Have him return as his goofy self, but in the end, Cena backstabs Bryan and takes Orton's spot as the Corporate Champion. No Well thought out response.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 9:22:45 GMT -5
It's always been beneficial long term for over-pushed top acts to disappear for awhile, thus forcing Vince's hand to stop just going to the same well over and over and develop new top acts instead. We saw it in '93 when Hogan left. We saw it again in '98 with Stone Cold after Bret & HBK were history. And again in '99 when Austin went down and Rock and HHH stood up. And now we're seeing it with Bryan in Cena's (much needed) absence. The company only ever seems to grow or evolve when given no other option. Sometimes it works, (most times), sometimes it doesn't. But there is no growth in backing the same horse for eternity. Having all your eggs in just one basket never lasts forever. Unfortunately, most people only learn to adapt through great reluctance. When they have no other alternatives, they have to go that way. However, by doing so, we're finally able to see a lot of the supporting cast the WWE has break out (and they do have one hell of a cast), which'll allow them to diversify better with allowing more presentation of their heroes and villains and giving fans the chance to pick whomever they want to cheer or boo. The pro wrestling industry will always have a difficult time replacing their bread and butter because they feel like they can rely on that marquee for years and years. Plus, Cena does need the time off. The man had been going almost non-stop for the past six years (when he was "fired" in late 2010, he was still wrestling house shows as "Juan Cena"), and eventually, most people will get tired of him (not just those that wear those "We Hate Cena" shirts, but even casual fans), and even when you're the face of the company, you get burned out, which can cause serious problems in the ring. There have been a few bumps in the road, but things have started to pick up in the right direction, which has made this product very watchable.
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Post by Instant Classic on Sept 18, 2013 9:27:09 GMT -5
Being A Cena fan, I thought I'd miss the f*** out of him. Strangely enough I'm glad he isn't here for the time being.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 18, 2013 13:13:56 GMT -5
He must return as a face.....for about five minutes, before turning on Daniel Bryan and turning heel.
It's time for a heel turn. WWE need a Bash at the Beach moment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 13:43:47 GMT -5
Being A Cena fan, I thought I'd miss the f*** out of him. Strangely enough I'm glad he isn't here for the time being. I felt the same about CM Punk when he was gone for a bit after WrestleMania, in fact I thought he came back too early. And he's one of my favorites of all time. There's so much TV that their top guys get way overexposed over the years, no matter how good they are.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 18, 2013 13:46:08 GMT -5
He must return as a face.....for about five minutes, before turning on Daniel Bryan and turning heel. It's time for a heel turn. WWE need a Bash at the Beach moment. I think it says more about WWE's faith in Bryan as a top guy if he's the top guy while Cena is present and also a face. If Cena turns then Bryan is only the top face "because Cena is a heel" which is really no different from "because Cena is injured". Bryan deserves better than to be the top face by default. Plus a Cena turn would hijack the story and make it about "John Cena has turned his back in the WWE universe". The main issue with Cena has always been his dominance over the product. They have a chance to finally get Cena accepted by turning him down a notch once he returns. Why ruin that by having An Ultimate Evil Cena take over the whole show?
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 18, 2013 13:53:30 GMT -5
He must return as a face.....for about five minutes, before turning on Daniel Bryan and turning heel. It's time for a heel turn. WWE need a Bash at the Beach moment. I think it says more about WWE's faith in Bryan as a top guy if he's the top guy while Cena is present and also a face. If Cena turns then Bryan is only the top face "because Cena is a heel" which is really no different from "because Cena is injured". Bryan deserves better than to be the top face by default. Plus a Cena turn would hijack the story and make it about "John Cena has turned his back in the WWE universe". The main issue with Cena has always been his dominance over the product. They have a chance to finally get Cena accepted by turning him down a notch once he returns. Why ruin that by having An Ultimate Evil Cena take over the whole show? Daniel Bryan will need a new opponent by the Royal Rumble (which he should win). Orton just isn't interesting enough. If Cena returns and turns on Daniel Bryan, it will make waves. It will break the internet. But it has to be done carefully. I'm well aware of Cena's Make-A-Wish importance and all that stuff, which is why I've always suggested that he should only turn heel on the roster and his haters, but NOT on his own fanbase. He should say something like "the CeNation has always been disrespected, especially from fat guys wearing Daniel Bryan shirts, or internet dweebs who dream about the Attitude Era coming back....so now it's time that we fight back" or a promo along those lines. He should encourage his fans to turn heel WITH him, rather than the boring route of having a face turn heel by insulting his own fans. It would be awesome to hear and see kids chanting support for the heel . If Cena is the top heel feuding with Daniel Bryan, DB will still be the top face.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 15:09:15 GMT -5
I think it says more about WWE's faith in Bryan as a top guy if he's the top guy while Cena is present and also a face. If Cena turns then Bryan is only the top face "because Cena is a heel" which is really no different from "because Cena is injured". Bryan deserves better than to be the top face by default. Plus a Cena turn would hijack the story and make it about "John Cena has turned his back in the WWE universe". The main issue with Cena has always been his dominance over the product. They have a chance to finally get Cena accepted by turning him down a notch once he returns. Why ruin that by having An Ultimate Evil Cena take over the whole show? Now I get WWE not wanting to torpedo John Cena and the charity he does outside the product his merch sales, yadda-yadda, they won't do this anyway. They've got reasons that make sense. I've got a barren field of all the ****s I could give about their reasons. As has already been pointed out, Cena has value only doing one of two things: either he's a special attraction who keeps the only feuds he's got left going in a little bubble far away from the Hunner Administration or he turns heel. There's value in having most of the audience wanting Cena's ass kicked with it finally being supported in the narrative. It even fits the theme going on with this meta thing they're doing. In keeping with the theme, I'd say the way you turn Cena is the same way they did with Hunner. Cena turns out to be precisely the person everyone swore he was: a soulless and corny Pied Piper of Corporate. It's not like challenges to Cena's authenticity was even a recent thing either. It was a constant theme people had during various feuds with him: Christian had called White Rapper Cena a poser before he even made the move to Raw (back when the draft was still a thing). Miz continued the drumbeat back when he was wearing glitter hats and bro-shorts, Truth talked long about Cena being a puppet in the lead-in to Capital Punishment hell...Edge had a villainous breakdown over how ubiquitous Cena and his image was. Cap it off with CM Punk saying Cena had long since stopped being an underdog and was the face of the empire and there you go... Why should Cena not be everything people have been saying he was for years?
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Sept 18, 2013 15:33:26 GMT -5
I think it says more about WWE's faith in Bryan as a top guy if he's the top guy while Cena is present and also a face. If Cena turns then Bryan is only the top face "because Cena is a heel" which is really no different from "because Cena is injured". Bryan deserves better than to be the top face by default. Plus a Cena turn would hijack the story and make it about "John Cena has turned his back in the WWE universe". The main issue with Cena has always been his dominance over the product. They have a chance to finally get Cena accepted by turning him down a notch once he returns. Why ruin that by having An Ultimate Evil Cena take over the whole show? Now I get WWE not wanting to torpedo John Cena and the charity he does outside the product his merch sales, yadda-yadda, they won't do this anyway. They've got reasons that make sense. I've got a barren field of all the ****s I could give about their reasons. As has already been pointed out, Cena has value only doing one of two things: either he's a special attraction who keeps the only feuds he's got left going in a little bubble far away from the Hunner Administration or he turns heel. There's value in having most of the audience wanting Cena's ass kicked with it finally being supported in the narrative. It even fits the theme going on with this meta thing they're doing. In keeping with the theme, I'd say the way you turn Cena is the same way they did with Hunner. Cena turns out to be precisely the person everyone swore he was: a soulless and corny Pied Piper of Corporate. It's not like challenges to Cena's authenticity was even a recent thing either. It was a constant theme people had during various feuds with him: Christian had called White Rapper Cena a poser before he even made the move to Raw (back when the draft was still a thing). Miz continued the drumbeat back when he was wearing glitter hats and bro-shorts, Truth talked long about Cena being a puppet in the lead-in to Capital Punishment hell...Edge had a villainous breakdown over how ubiquitous Cena and his image was. Cap it off with CM Punk saying Cena had long since stopped being an underdog and was the face of the empire and there you go... Why should Cena not be everything people have been saying he was for years? Because the facts really don't support the Cena-as-chosen-one narrative, given by most accounts Heyman also had to go to bat for him as he did Punk, and was more or less destined to be a midcard comedy guy before crowds massively got behind him. And kayfabe wise, it's very hard for me to logically pair him with Corporate given how he A) wants nothing to do with them, and B) hammers home his devotion to WWE's audience, including his unwillingness to compromise for his critics. At least when Austin sold out, it had previously been established his loyalties lay only with himself and winning the WWE Title. If I were to turn Cena, I wouldn't have him sell out or anything of the sort- he'd just start buying into his own hype and become a bully. He knows he can beat anyone on their best day, so what would he need with the McMahons? I'd rather see him as a delusional Bo type than for him to turn his back on the crowd, because that wouldn't require any retconning. And if the Bryan/HHH/Orton affair is accelerated enough (we already had a revolt), that kind of heel Cena might be feasible by next year. But as far as Corporate Cena, no buys.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 18, 2013 15:37:19 GMT -5
I think it says more about WWE's faith in Bryan as a top guy if he's the top guy while Cena is present and also a face. If Cena turns then Bryan is only the top face "because Cena is a heel" which is really no different from "because Cena is injured". Bryan deserves better than to be the top face by default. Plus a Cena turn would hijack the story and make it about "John Cena has turned his back in the WWE universe". The main issue with Cena has always been his dominance over the product. They have a chance to finally get Cena accepted by turning him down a notch once he returns. Why ruin that by having An Ultimate Evil Cena take over the whole show? Now I get WWE not wanting to torpedo John Cena and the charity he does outside the product his merch sales, yadda-yadda, they won't do this anyway. They've got reasons that make sense. I've got a barren field of all the ****s I could give about their reasons. As has already been pointed out, Cena has value only doing one of two things: either he's a special attraction who keeps the only feuds he's got left going in a little bubble far away from the Hunner Administration or he turns heel. There's value in having most of the audience wanting Cena's ass kicked with it finally being supported in the narrative. It even fits the theme going on with this meta thing they're doing. In keeping with the theme, I'd say the way you turn Cena is the same way they did with Hunner. Cena turns out to be precisely the person everyone swore he was: a soulless and corny Pied Piper of Corporate. It's not like challenges to Cena's authenticity was even a recent thing either. It was a constant theme people had during various feuds with him: Christian had called White Rapper Cena a poser before he even made the move to Raw (back when the draft was still a thing). Miz continued the drumbeat back when he was wearing glitter hats and bro-shorts, Truth talked long about Cena being a puppet in the lead-in to Capital Punishment hell...Edge had a villainous breakdown over how ubiquitous Cena and his image was. Cap it off with CM Punk saying Cena had long since stopped being an underdog and was the face of the empire and there you go... Why should Cena not be everything people have been saying he was for years? because who the hell are they to say what's in Cena's head? Their claims on Cena reflect their insecurities and paranoia.
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Post by cool guy on Sept 18, 2013 15:44:18 GMT -5
I do think a heel turn is long overdue for Cena, but I wouldn't have him become a part of the corporate storyline, because he's honestly just too big to play second fiddle to Triple H the way the "face of the company" would have to in this angle.
I'd make a heel Cena Bryan's next opponent after all this corporate stuff is done with. There's no need to blow our whole load at once here. You can bring him back as a face, build towards a huge match with The Undertaker, and use the fallout of however that goes down (I'd have him win, but I'd understand if he didn't) to turn him heel. Meanwhile, Bryan finally finishes off the corporation at WM by beating HHH or whoever, and there you go, you have a massive hero fresh off a grand victory and a brand new villain to set him against.
It's all about pacing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 15:59:26 GMT -5
Because the facts really don't support the Cena-as-chosen-one narrative, given by most accounts Heyman also had to go to bat for him as he did Punk, and was more or less destined to be a midcard comedy guy before crowds massively got behind him. And kayfabe wise, it's very hard for me to logically pair him with Corporate given how he A) wants nothing to do with them, and B) hammers home his devotion to WWE's audience, including his unwillingness to compromise for his critics. At least when Austin sold out, it had previously been established his loyalties lay only with himself and winning the WWE Title. If I were to turn Cena, I wouldn't have him sell out or anything of the sort- he'd just start buying into his own hype and become a bully. He knows he can beat anyone on their best day, so what would he need with the McMahons? I'd rather see him as a delusional Bo type than for him to turn his back on the crowd, because that wouldn't require any retconning. And if the Bryan/HHH/Orton affair is accelerated enough (we already had a revolt), that kind of heel Cena might be feasible by next year. But as far as Corporate Cena, no buys. Okay, but Cena is already corporate. Whether he's with the McMahons or not, Cena is too milquetoast, corny and manufactured most of the time. Everything about him is corporate. That's part of why so much of the audience turns on him on a regular basis. The Heyman stuff would've been a lifetime ago and I'm not even sure that counts as common knowledge. Cena is the face of the Empire right now. If you don't want to pair him with the McMahons, though I think the surefire way to do it in a way that at least seems plausible while nearly guaranteeing people to boo him is for him to have the backing of the Hunner Administration which...really, for the longest he's been like that anyway regardless of what they do in the storyline. And no, I don't buy Cena's kayfabe devotion to the audience considering his devotion seems to lie more into some vague idea of the WWE as its own entity. It's arguable at best, thanks to shitty writing. To salvage that you could have Cena claim the WWE is in fact whatever he wants it to be and how much bigger than the business he is. Hell, he could go all delusional and claim the only reason DBD got the chance to prove anything is because CENA gave him a match. Essentially Corporate Cena works for me because a majority of the audience already believes he is on a basic level. It's weird and meta but we're having that kinda angle right now.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Sept 18, 2013 16:13:47 GMT -5
Because the facts really don't support the Cena-as-chosen-one narrative, given by most accounts Heyman also had to go to bat for him as he did Punk, and was more or less destined to be a midcard comedy guy before crowds massively got behind him. And kayfabe wise, it's very hard for me to logically pair him with Corporate given how he A) wants nothing to do with them, and B) hammers home his devotion to WWE's audience, including his unwillingness to compromise for his critics. At least when Austin sold out, it had previously been established his loyalties lay only with himself and winning the WWE Title. If I were to turn Cena, I wouldn't have him sell out or anything of the sort- he'd just start buying into his own hype and become a bully. He knows he can beat anyone on their best day, so what would he need with the McMahons? I'd rather see him as a delusional Bo type than for him to turn his back on the crowd, because that wouldn't require any retconning. And if the Bryan/HHH/Orton affair is accelerated enough (we already had a revolt), that kind of heel Cena might be feasible by next year. But as far as Corporate Cena, no buys. Okay, but Cena is already corporate. Whether he's with the McMahons or not, Cena is too milquetoast, corny and manufactured most of the time. Everything about him is corporate. That's part of why so much of the audience turns on him on a regular basis. The Heyman stuff would've been a lifetime ago and I'm not even sure that counts as common knowledge. Cena is the face of the Empire right now. If you don't want to pair him with the McMahons, though I think the surefire way to do it in a way that at least seems plausible while nearly guaranteeing people to boo him is for him to have the backing of the Hunner Administration which...really, for the longest he's been like that anyway regardless of what they do in the storyline. And no, I don't buy Cena's kayfabe devotion to the audience considering his devotion seems to lie more into some vague idea of the WWE as its own entity. It's arguable at best, thanks to shitty writing. To salvage that you could have Cena claim the WWE is in fact whatever he wants it to be and how much bigger than the business he is. Hell, he could go all delusional and claim the only reason DBD got the chance to prove anything is because CENA gave him a match. Essentially Corporate Cena works for me because a majority of the audience already believes he is on a basic level. It's weird and meta but we're having that kinda angle right now. Actually, the audience turns on him partly because he constantly dominates everyone, and also partly because WWE has already intentionally undercut him by teasing the "manufactured Cena" concept in a number of his feuds. It's got nothing to do with him having a "corny nice guy" demeanor- or at least I hope not, because that would indicate something very, very ugly and depressing about modern wrestling fans. The fact that Bryan got so over while being so goofy much of the time gives me hope in that regard. TLDR, if WWE hadn't already fed into the sellout narrative so much, he'd probably be way more over with most of the crowd today regardless of how he acted or whose finisher he kicked out of. Tell a lie long enough, and sadly it becomes the truth.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 18, 2013 16:15:35 GMT -5
As I've said before, Cena's devotion is to WWE, and WWE has never been represented as anything but the authority figures on screen, who are almost entirely corrupt. Cena's love for WWE is based on something that he has never defined. He's Ronald McDonald. He's a corporate mascot. Like Punk said, he IS the establishment. Even more so than Hulk Hogan who at least defined his devotion as being to the Hulkamaniacs, rather than the company itself.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 16:27:58 GMT -5
Actually, the audience turns on him partly because he constantly dominates everyone, and also partly because WWE has already intentionally undercut him by teasing the "manufactured Cena" concept in a number of his feuds. It's got nothing to do with him having a "corny nice guy" demeanor- or at least I hope not, because that would indicate something very, very ugly and depressing about modern wrestling fans. The fact that Bryan got so over while being so goofy much of the time gives me hope in that regard. TLDR, if WWE hadn't already fed into the sellout narrative so much, he'd probably be way more over with most of the crowd today regardless of how he acted or whose finisher he kicked out of. Tell a lie long enough, and sadly it becomes the truth. I think it does have to do with him being the corniest white guy on the planet only because he's booked to be. I'm not using "nice" and "corny" interchangeably. It's not because he's "nice" but because it comes off as inauthentic. You got him being booked to have motivations that make no damned sense; it's too transparent that he's a fictional character written to say and do things... Him being the corniest white dude in wrestling could be fine, a lot of people say Superman is corny. At least Superman feels authentic. Cena hasn't felt authentic in a long time. Not his fault, I guess but he's the one who has to deal with the crowd reaction so whatever. As far as when precisely he felt that way...? This feels like a chicken vs. egg thing to me, so I can only shrug and guess that it was around "JBL is poopy!" and call it a day.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Sept 18, 2013 16:42:51 GMT -5
Actually, the audience turns on him partly because he constantly dominates everyone, and also partly because WWE has already intentionally undercut him by teasing the "manufactured Cena" concept in a number of his feuds. It's got nothing to do with him having a "corny nice guy" demeanor- or at least I hope not, because that would indicate something very, very ugly and depressing about modern wrestling fans. The fact that Bryan got so over while being so goofy much of the time gives me hope in that regard. TLDR, if WWE hadn't already fed into the sellout narrative so much, he'd probably be way more over with most of the crowd today regardless of how he acted or whose finisher he kicked out of. Tell a lie long enough, and sadly it becomes the truth. I think it does have to do with him being the corniest white guy on the planet only because he's booked to be. I'm not using "nice" and "corny" interchangeably. It's not because he's "nice" but because it comes off as inauthentic. You got him being booked to have motivations that make no damned sense; it's too transparent that he's a fictional character written to say and do things... Him being the corniest white dude in wrestling could be fine, a lot of people say Superman is corny. At least Superman feels authentic. Cena hasn't felt authentic in a long time. Not his fault, I guess but he's the one who has to deal with the crowd reaction so whatever. As far as when precisely he felt that way...? This feels like a chicken vs. egg thing to me, so I can only shrug and guess that it was around "JBL is poopy!" and call it a day. Did you not see his promo on MizTV before Summerslam? That was considerably more authentic than the hogwash about him being a "parody" of a wrestler Bryan was trying to peddle. And TBH, "corny" should never, ever be regarded as a dirty word in wrestling, especially since it's a cornball artform by its very nature. What's great about Cena is how he'll often undercut a lot of the general pretentions wrestling often suffers from, like little moments where he just stayed silent and mouthed WTF after finding Boogeyman in a closet, or just about everything during the Christmas Raw last year. I find him way more interesting when he's not serious.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 16:51:44 GMT -5
Did you not see his promo on MizTV before Summerslam? That was considerably more authentic than the hogwash about him being a "parody" of a wrestler Bryan was trying to peddle. And TBH, "corny" should never, ever be regarded as a dirty word in wrestling, especially since it's a cornball artform by its very nature. What's great about Cena is how he'll often undercut a lot of the general pretentions wrestling often suffers from, like little moments where he just stayed silent and mouthed WTF after finding Boogeyman in a closet, or just about everything during the Christmas Raw last year. I find him way more interesting when he's not serious. I could probably look it up, but honestly it's a Cena promo debating something stupid that shouldn't have been said in the first place and I'm about to be a lazy asshole here so I'll take your word for it. I'm sure it did sound authentic. Cena's got moments, yes. But if it's corny, I'mma call it corny. I don't think wrestling in general is corny whether it's straight up like Shimmer or on some other shit with HUSTLE or (The Indy Formerly Known As) CHIKARA. I don't even think non-serious Cena is corny, although there are certain things I expect to be taken seriously just because otherwise, why the hell should anyone else care if John Cena doesn't? He's the "face."
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