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Post by YaakovLee on Nov 8, 2013 3:59:12 GMT -5
There's no need to be rude to the poster when you're making pretty wild assumptions yourself. Have you sold Ryback drugs? Do you work for WWE? Do you have results to his drug tests? If you answered no to any of those questions then there's a good chance that you're not an expert either, but a mark with an internet connection. "People need to get the f*** over it." That's what he wrote. It was an abrasive statement. It deserved an equally abrasive answer. Had it been worded in a less antagonistic way, I'd have addressed it politely. And I never said it was fact that Ryback was on anything. I never spoke in absolutes. I was simply speculating on a widespread issue in other sports that could easily translate to wrestling. After all, many people of Ryback's proportions have been on steroids, and some are dead because of it. It is not out of the realm of possibility that wrestlers are utilizing the same loopholes as say MMA fighters. In fact, it's downright naive to think no one is. Or that someone not getting busted means irrefutably that they aren't on anything despite so many red flags and ways to mask. Ryback's innocent until proven guilty of course, but there is grounds for speculation. That said, I myself have (stupidly) been on steroids. I can speak with a certain level of experience on it. I'm also a sports journalist who has covered both MMA and Pro wrestling extensively for 15 years and spoken at length to a lot of them on the very subject to get their point of view. Hardly a "mark." No offense intended. However, I have a few issues with what you said. First, his statement was vague and yours was directly at him. That's the only reason I responded that way. Second, I'm not saying WWE guys never juice. That would be naive. I'm saying naming names is dumb when a guy like Edge has been caught and I've known tons of clean guys bigger than him. It would also be naive to claim WWE's wellness policy isn't producing cleaner athletes, no? Orton and Mysterio are both a strike from being terminated and that means nothing? I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's a breath of fresh air to know even a star can be busted. Third, I was a wrestler (amateur, not "pro") for several years and took part in bodybuilding competitions for a few years as well. I never took steroids, but that doesn't mean you have some secret knowledge I don't have in regards to them. I was constantly cheated by people just like you who claimed they "had to" because everybody else was on them. Finally, we're all marks. There's nothing wrong with that. I've promoted wrestling locally for a few years and if you claim to not be a mark I'd have to question the extent of your wrestling knowledge. I sure as hell am a mark because I freaking started amateur wrestling because of pro wrestling, bodybuilding because of pro wrestling and promote local shows due to my continuing love. I'M A MARK. YOU ARE A MARK. IT'S NO BIG DEAL. I wish you well in your journalism career and in general. EDIT: Just checked out your work from your profile links. Funny stuff, man. Keep up the great work.
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Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
Posts: 5,185
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Post by Chip on Nov 8, 2013 4:19:12 GMT -5
Finally, we're all marks. There's nothing wrong with that. I've promoted wrestling locally for a few years and if you claim to not be a mark I'd have to question the extent of your wrestling knowledge. I sure as hell am a mark because I freaking started amateur wrestling because of pro wrestling, bodybuilding because of pro wrestling and promote local shows due to my continuing love. I'M A MARK. YOU ARE A MARK. IT'S NO BIG DEAL. I loved when Scott Hall said that the wrestlers themselves were the biggest marks of all, they damage their bodies and have been known to work hurt for years to entertain the audience and climb the ladder to a world title. You can't really get more dedicated then harming yourself for professional wrestling.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 8, 2013 4:22:43 GMT -5
"People need to get the f*** over it." That's what he wrote. It was an abrasive statement. It deserved an equally abrasive answer. Had it been worded in a less antagonistic way, I'd have addressed it politely. And I never said it was fact that Ryback was on anything. I never spoke in absolutes. I was simply speculating on a widespread issue in other sports that could easily translate to wrestling. After all, many people of Ryback's proportions have been on steroids, and some are dead because of it. It is not out of the realm of possibility that wrestlers are utilizing the same loopholes as say MMA fighters. In fact, it's downright naive to think no one is. Or that someone not getting busted means irrefutably that they aren't on anything despite so many red flags and ways to mask. Ryback's innocent until proven guilty of course, but there is grounds for speculation. That said, I myself have (stupidly) been on steroids. I can speak with a certain level of experience on it. I'm also a sports journalist who has covered both MMA and Pro wrestling extensively for 15 years and spoken at length to a lot of them on the very subject to get their point of view. Hardly a "mark." No offense intended. However, I have a few issues with what you said. First, his statement was vague and yours was directly at him. That's the only reason I responded that way. Second, I'm not saying WWE guys never juice. That would be naive. I'm saying naming names is dumb when a guy like Edge has been caught and I've known tons of clean guys bigger than him. It would also be naive to claim WWE's wellness policy isn't producing cleaner athletes, no? Orton and Mysterio are both a strike from being terminated and that means nothing? I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's a breath of fresh air to know even a star can be busted. Third, I was a wrestler (amateur, not "pro") for several years and took part in bodybuilding competitions for a few years as well. I never took steroids, but that doesn't mean you have some secret knowledge I don't have in regards to them. I was constantly cheated by people just like you who claimed they "had to" because everybody else was on them. Finally, we're all marks. There's nothing wrong with that. I've promoted wrestling locally for a few years and if you claim to not be a mark I'd have to question the extent of your wrestling knowledge. I sure as hell am a mark because I freaking started amateur wrestling because of pro wrestling, bodybuilding because of pro wrestling and promote local shows due to my continuing love. I'M A MARK. YOU ARE A MARK. IT'S NO BIG DEAL. I wish you well in your journalism career and in general. I took the "mark" line in the derogatory meaning, not the connotation that we all love wrestling, which I do. As far as my own steroid use goes, it was just cosmetic in my 20's. I did amateur wrestle in high school, but there were no post-secondary options in the part of Ontario I was in, and I certainly wasn't skilled enough to be given a ride in the U.S. As far as my writing goes, I started off doing historical pieces for the Toronto Star about 14 years ago. Wrestling and MMA is a huge passion for me, and I've done a lot of historical research for Meltzer, LAW in Canada, Apter mags, and along with my friend Harry Simon, for Mike Tenay for TNA's first shows in 2002 (mostly stuff on Shamrock and the NWA Title history). I eventually segued that into a lot of freelance stuff for every site and mag out there at one time or another. Back on the topic at hand, I want to believe Wellness is a truly fair policy, but I've seen too many of my faves die after years of denying their issues, and now, in MMA, the whole TRT controversy, to really do so. I think Wellness is doing the best of ANY sports testing today, but when big money is involved, people inside and out of a business are capable of anything. There's likely still a ways to go before its completely legit, in my opinion.
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Post by YaakovLee on Nov 8, 2013 4:55:21 GMT -5
No offense intended. However, I have a few issues with what you said. First, his statement was vague and yours was directly at him. That's the only reason I responded that way. Second, I'm not saying WWE guys never juice. That would be naive. I'm saying naming names is dumb when a guy like Edge has been caught and I've known tons of clean guys bigger than him. It would also be naive to claim WWE's wellness policy isn't producing cleaner athletes, no? Orton and Mysterio are both a strike from being terminated and that means nothing? I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's a breath of fresh air to know even a star can be busted. Third, I was a wrestler (amateur, not "pro") for several years and took part in bodybuilding competitions for a few years as well. I never took steroids, but that doesn't mean you have some secret knowledge I don't have in regards to them. I was constantly cheated by people just like you who claimed they "had to" because everybody else was on them. Finally, we're all marks. There's nothing wrong with that. I've promoted wrestling locally for a few years and if you claim to not be a mark I'd have to question the extent of your wrestling knowledge. I sure as hell am a mark because I freaking started amateur wrestling because of pro wrestling, bodybuilding because of pro wrestling and promote local shows due to my continuing love. I'M A MARK. YOU ARE A MARK. IT'S NO BIG DEAL. I wish you well in your journalism career and in general. I took the "mark" line in the derogatory meaning, not the connotation that we all love wrestling, which I do. As far as my own steroid use goes, it was just cosmetic in my 20's. I did amateur wrestle in high school, but there were no post-secondary options in the part of Ontario I was in, and I certainly wasn't skilled enough to be given a ride in the U.S. As far as my writing goes, I started off doing historical pieces for the Toronto Star about 14 years ago. Wrestling and MMA is a huge passion for me, and I've done a lot of historical research for Meltzer, LAW in Canada, Apter mags, and along with my friend Harry Simon, for Mike Tenay for TNA's first shows in 2002 (mostly stuff on Shamrock and the NWA Title history). I eventually segued that into a lot of freelance stuff for every site and mag out there at one time or another. Back on the topic at hand, I want to believe Wellness is a truly fair policy, but I've seen too many of my faves die after years of denying their issues, and now, in MMA, the whole TRT controversy, to really do so. I think Wellness is doing the best of ANY sports testing today, but when big money is involved, people inside and out of a business are capable of anything. There's likely still a ways to go before its completely legit, in my opinion. I'm going to do something nobody has done on a message board before: I WAS WRONG. My reply to you in regard to steroid use was out of line and reading it back makes me feel like shit. For that I am very sorry and have no right to judge. I just had a flashback to when people around me used and how it made me feel and I had no right to respond the way I did. Yeah, your writing credentials don't shock me due to the quality of the content linked in your profile. Very funny stuff and I'll be sure to share with my friends who like wrestling as well. I'm not a big fan of the policy to be honest. My point was only that we're finally getting to a point where these guys aren't dropping like flies and that something is working. Obviously it isn't perfect, but WWE is more entertainment than sport and UFC, NFL, MLB and boxing all have these same issues. So from that standpoint I give WWE credit for stopping a good portion of whatever was going on with these guys.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 8, 2013 5:01:03 GMT -5
I took the "mark" line in the derogatory meaning, not the connotation that we all love wrestling, which I do. As far as my own steroid use goes, it was just cosmetic in my 20's. I did amateur wrestle in high school, but there were no post-secondary options in the part of Ontario I was in, and I certainly wasn't skilled enough to be given a ride in the U.S. As far as my writing goes, I started off doing historical pieces for the Toronto Star about 14 years ago. Wrestling and MMA is a huge passion for me, and I've done a lot of historical research for Meltzer, LAW in Canada, Apter mags, and along with my friend Harry Simon, for Mike Tenay for TNA's first shows in 2002 (mostly stuff on Shamrock and the NWA Title history). I eventually segued that into a lot of freelance stuff for every site and mag out there at one time or another. Back on the topic at hand, I want to believe Wellness is a truly fair policy, but I've seen too many of my faves die after years of denying their issues, and now, in MMA, the whole TRT controversy, to really do so. I think Wellness is doing the best of ANY sports testing today, but when big money is involved, people inside and out of a business are capable of anything. There's likely still a ways to go before its completely legit, in my opinion. I'm going to do something nobody has done on a message board before: I WAS WRONG. My reply to you in regard to steroid use was out of line and reading it back makes me feel like shit. For that I am very sorry and have no right to judge. I just had a flashback to when people around me used and how it made me feel and I had no right to respond the way I did. Yeah, your writing credentials don't shock me due to the quality of the content linked in your profile. Very funny stuff and I'll be sure to share with my friends who like wrestling as well. I'm not a big fan of the policy to be honest. My point was only that we're finally getting to a point where these guys aren't dropping like flies and that something is working. Obviously it isn't perfect, but WWE is more entertainment than sport and UFC, NFL, MLB and boxing all have these same issues. So from that standpoint I give WWE credit for stopping a good portion of whatever was going on with these guys. It's no worries, man. And I wouldn't say you were wrong. I think we were both just confused by the other's intentions. It's all good. I enjoyed your points. And thanks for the compliments. Much appreciated.
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Post by YaakovLee on Nov 8, 2013 5:11:07 GMT -5
Finally, we're all marks. There's nothing wrong with that. I've promoted wrestling locally for a few years and if you claim to not be a mark I'd have to question the extent of your wrestling knowledge. I sure as hell am a mark because I freaking started amateur wrestling because of pro wrestling, bodybuilding because of pro wrestling and promote local shows due to my continuing love. I'M A MARK. YOU ARE A MARK. IT'S NO BIG DEAL. I loved when Scott Hall said that the wrestlers themselves were the biggest marks of all, they damage their bodies and have been known to work hurt for years to entertain the audience and climb the ladder to a world title. You can't really get more dedicated then harming yourself for professional wrestling. He's right, man. Wrestlers try and act like only fans can be marks, but fans don't go to so many wrestling shows that they can die.
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Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
Posts: 5,185
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Post by Chip on Nov 8, 2013 5:18:57 GMT -5
I will say that whilst we are still on the whole steroids deal, I hate hate hate HATE that whenever you talk to a non-fan that says everyone's on steroids, you show them examples that are clearly not on anything and they say "Well they don't look like wrestlers" ..... f***ing pick one, you can't talk down about the business by implying everyone's on steroids and then say people that aren't don't look like wrestlers.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Nov 8, 2013 6:53:47 GMT -5
Billy Graham might be a bitter old man who is out of touch with reality but come on what he said is hardly the sort of stuff to get worked up over.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,981
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Post by Mozenrath on Nov 8, 2013 6:56:43 GMT -5
"I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems weird and scary to me, and it'll happen to you, too." -Billy Graham, 2013
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