Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 19:13:11 GMT -5
What's unsatisfying is the anti-climax. Built it up perfectly to him dethroning John Cena at Summerslam. His fans, understandbly THRILLED by this. Then Pedigree! and it becomes all about if he's good for business and how he looks silly and he's small and stuff. Gets dicked out of the title a bunch more times. Then he just kind of moves on to the Wyatt family feud. How could that possibly be satisfying? I think the goalposts are being moved qutie a bit here. He's got to have a real WWE title reign where he's the man for a while for this to all be satisfying. That's what they built up to, then yanked away from people. If they did that just to make it sweeter when it really does happen...I still think it's a stupid idea, but okay fine. But if he never gets back to that point, and he's just kind of upper-midcard really popular YES! guy, people are well within their right mind to not be satisfied by that.
|
|
|
Post by Starshine on Nov 26, 2013 19:13:52 GMT -5
Right Clash, we get it. We're not fair to Cena. You can stop telling us now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 19:15:31 GMT -5
Yes.
|
|
|
Post by botchingitup on Nov 26, 2013 19:15:58 GMT -5
Clash, you likely wouldn't have nearly the difficulty understanding all of this and the problem people have if you weren't a giant John Cena mark to the point where it's comical. It's one thing to be a fan and have your preferences about characterization, it's another thing to willingly stuff your face in the sand in a way where you wouldn't be this daft under any other circumstance.
This is not complicated. At all. People are tired of seeing the same thing. They didn't actually give us anything new without strings and asterisks attached. Even when Cena was 100% absent, Bryan was put in the position where he was never shown as being even remotely legitimate due to the sheer amount of clownshoes nonsense that was thrown his way. The moment Cena came back, it became the same old crap, and Daniel Bryan decided he was infinitely more interested in fighting bearded guys instead of the giant company conspiracy that goes miles down.
It's not complicated. No one is saying John Cena needs to go away, and you KNOW that, we're saying he needs to move down the card a bit and do something else. We're tired of this song and dance, and I am especially tired of you taking any pretense that people might want some kind of different direction as an ever-increasing vindictive against John Cena to want to taint his legacy and reduce him to a minor player. Grow up.
This is especially amusing:
Radio Clash is an omnipotent entity that can see every possible reality, including hypothetical ones. He's ABSOLUTELY positive he'd be happy with what the WWE has done up to this point if he were a die-hard fan.
|
|
|
Post by Final Countdown Jones on Nov 26, 2013 19:16:19 GMT -5
Where this really hurts is the storytelling. Look at it in kayfabe, and you see the problems in him falling short. He has his WWE title run reduced to something a stopwatch could measure, with the story being drenched in insider terms, preying on smarks' perceptions of the company and weaving this story where the obvious outcome was for him to overcome the odds and become that. It's not something anyone has assumed, it's something the company has made a point of having him fight for in-story. That's what the feud with the Authority was about. It's not just the title, it's about the title making you THE guy. And hey, what do you know. The crowd was behind it. Not just this forum. The crowd. This was something that even an average fan was behind, not just smarks.
How did it go? They kept screwing him, adding all of these elements to the PPVs that resulted in screwjob after screwjob. Making you buy three PPVs where there is no satisfying conclusion to the story. Here is a hero who is better than his adversary, but things outside of his control keep effecting that. The ref fast counts. Big Show comes out and makes the match a no contest. Shawn Michaels turns heel just to screw him. THEY made this about being the face of the company, and he ended the storyline by never having a clean loss against Orton and making Shawn Michaels tap. But no actual resolution to the story. The hero ended up falling short after the odds being put against him.
Why? What is actually served by creating a story where the hero HAS to win, because from a narrative structure that's the entire point of throwing every obstacle you can at the hero, and then having him fall short and be quietly shoved aside for this other guy? This wasn't a filler feud where he clearly had no chance, they put him over Cena, showed that Orton isn't on his level, and for some idiotic reason they decided at the end of the story that hey, maybe the bad guys should win. Have someone else come in and beat them. Have the guy who we've been telling you is the big hero guy for ten years come and beat them instead, but thanks for keeping the seat warm, plucky sidekick.
I would have been happy with the WWE title run that, when he beat Cena at Summerslam, I thought was coming. A few months, maybe even something stretching into a Mania main event. That would have been perfect to me. But the WWE is what built up something more, because they made his story about having to be the best and throwing as much insider stuff as they could without isolating the rest of the audience. They built it up, built him up, and built up everyone's expectations. If they didn't want to put him into that spot, they shouldn't have done any of what we've had to sit through since Summerslam.
|
|
kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
|
Post by kidglov3s on Nov 26, 2013 19:18:13 GMT -5
What's unsatisfying is the anti-climax. Built it up perfectly to him dethroning John Cena at Summerslam. His fans, understandbly THRILLED by this. Then Pedigree! and it becomes all about if he's good for business and how he looks silly and he's small and stuff. Gets dicked out of the title a bunch more times. Then he just kind of moves on to the Wyatt family feud. How could that possibly be satisfying? I think the goalposts are being moved qutie a bit here. He's got to have a real WWE title reign where he's the man for a while for this to all be satisfying. That's what they built up to, then yanked away from people. If they did that just to make it sweeter when it really does happen...I still think it's a stupid idea, but okay fine. But if he never gets back to that point, and he's just kind of upper-midcard really popular YES! guy, people are well within their right mind to not be satisfied by that. And it's not like it's just us malcontents on here who aren't on our knees praising the booking. It sounded like pretty much the whole crowd at Survivor Series wanted Bryan in the title picture.
|
|
|
Post by botchingitup on Nov 26, 2013 19:20:14 GMT -5
And it's not like it's just us malcontents on here who aren't on our knees praising the booking here. It sounded like pretty much the whole crowd at Survivor Series wanted Bryan in the title picture. B-b-but look at the guy! He's having the time of his life out there! If people look like they're enjoying themselves being the neo-Hacksaw Jim Duggan, they should totally settle for that because it is Cena's divine right to be on top~
|
|
|
Post by hossfan on Nov 26, 2013 19:23:12 GMT -5
At this point, if Bryan doesn't become the WWE Champion then what "The Authority" has been saying is going to appear true. Which is why he's winning the title at Wrestlemania.
|
|
|
Post by angryfan on Nov 26, 2013 19:23:20 GMT -5
Here's my issue, what I want to see is booking that is equal to what they did with this midcard generic newcomer a long time ago.
They said, "Go out there and get over". They didn't start/stop the booking, they didn't go half way then retreat. And it worked.
It worked for Austin. It worked for Rock. It worked for Cena. Three vastly different characters, but the fans got behind them and the company didn't go "Holy shit, we have to stop this".
A week after KotR, they begin a program of jobbing out Austin to Bret Hart. They do promos reinforcing that he's not on Bret's level. Every week.
Cena is the midcard darling, he's got his gimmick and it's time for the JBL feud. They have Cena lose constantly via interference, undercut him in promos, and then in the big last man standing match they have JBL go over before elevating Hardcore Holly into the title picture instead.
The Rock is in the Nation, and is trying to take over. He's just recently cut the "Die, Rocky, die" promo. They then have him beaten down by DX, he gets no mic time, and winds up feuding with Savio Vega for three months to "not burn the crowd out".
DO any of them become the main events we know them to be? Or are they all forgettable busts?
|
|
|
Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 26, 2013 19:24:57 GMT -5
I think the big killer is that Bryan winning the title and overcoming the Authority was the logical conclusion to the storyline. Now, they still have time to go that route but if that's not the payoff here, that's pretty unsatisfying to everyone who got invested in him during the summer.
So, does Bryan deserve to be the face of WWE? He's absurdly over so I would say so. Does he HAVE to be the face of WWE? Not neccessarily. SHOULD he be the face of WWE? Based on the story that WWE has crafted, yes.
|
|
|
Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 26, 2013 19:26:22 GMT -5
Face of the company? Try 'Portrayed as the savior of all wrestling that is better than 29 Hulk Hogans!' I love that you stopped at 29. Like, he could take 29 Hogans but the power of 30 Hogans would be too much for any life form to overcome.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 19:28:19 GMT -5
Here's my issue, what I want to see is booking that is equal to what they did with this midcard generic newcomer a long time ago. They said, "Go out there and get over". They didn't start/stop the booking, they didn't go half way then retreat. And it worked. It worked for Austin. It worked for Rock. It worked for Cena. Three vastly different characters, but the fans got behind them and the company didn't go "Holy shit, we have to stop this". A week after KotR, they begin a program of jobbing out Austin to Bret Hart. They do promos reinforcing that he's not on Bret's level. Every week. Cena is the midcard darling, he's got his gimmick and it's time for the JBL feud. They have Cena lose constantly via interference, undercut him in promos, and then in the big last man standing match they have JBL go over before elevating Hardcore Holly into the title picture instead. The Rock is in the Nation, and is trying to take over. He's just recently cut the "Die, Rocky, die" promo. They then have him beaten down by DX, he gets no mic time, and winds up feuding with Savio Vega for three months to "not burn the crowd out". DO any of them become the main events we know them to be? Or are they all forgettable busts? Post of the day.
|
|
|
Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Nov 26, 2013 19:35:47 GMT -5
Fine keep Cena but can we get rid of Orton?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 19:37:21 GMT -5
Right Clash, we get it. We're not fair to Cena. You can stop telling us now. This. So much this.
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Nov 26, 2013 19:39:06 GMT -5
Nope, but giving him an actual title run of a couple of months instead of bullshit two "wins" lasting less than 24 hours can't possibly be considered too much to ask.
|
|
|
Post by angryfan on Nov 26, 2013 19:40:47 GMT -5
Fine keep Cena but can we get rid of Orton? I get they've invest4d time in Orton, and he's different than he used to be, or something, but he's like the living embodiment of a cardboard cutout. Cena, as stale as his gimmick is to me, and as much as I'd LOVE to see it freshened up, at least he's, you know, animated. A heel should make you hate them, not get you addicted to NoDoze when he picks up a mic.
|
|
|
Post by Piccolo on Nov 26, 2013 19:44:03 GMT -5
But getting back to Talking Farm Animal: yes, he's over. He's one of the best talents they have. He deserves to be in main events, he deserves to win world titles. But let's imagine he mostly goes back to the midcard from here on out, and carves out a nice niche for himself, with him making sporadic main event appearances. That combined with what he's done now, haven't they already "pulled the trigger" on him? Why, exactly, does he have to be above Cena to instill confidence in his fans? Is John stinking up the joint that badly? Is his body in Hogan-like condition already where he's one bump from paralyzation? So you're only OK with Bryan as long as he's in a little niche in the midcard? I can see that, but only if you're somehow afraid that another wrestler becoming a huge success will diminish Cena, which I don't understand. You characterize anything but a midcard spot as being "above" Cena, which also doesn't really make sense. How about if they become equal? Why would that threaten a Cena fan? More hugely popular stars can only be a good thing for the show... we don't need to put reins on someone's success so that Cena can shine alone. Let's let them all shine together.
|
|
|
Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Nov 26, 2013 19:47:38 GMT -5
It's time for a changing of the guard.
By the time Bret Hart won the WWF title again at Wrestlemania 10, Hulk Hogan was gone. Andre the Giant was gone. Ted DiBiase was doing commentary. The Ultimate Warrior was gone. Randy Savage was working part-time, but he would be out the door soon too. Ric Flair was gone. All the top talent of the mid-to-late 1980s had moved on.
By the time Steve Austin won the WWF title at Wrestlemania 14, Bret Hart was gone. Diesel was gone. Sid was gone. Shawn Michaels was on the way out. Lex Luger was gone. Razor Ramon was gone. All the top talent of the early 1990s had moved on.
By the time Randy Orton, John Cena, Batista, and Edge won their first WHC/WWE title, Steve Austin was gone. The Rock was gone. Mick Foley was less than part-time. The Big Show would soon be gone. Goldberg was gone. The NWO was done. All the top talent of the late 1990s had moved on.
By the time Sheamus, CM Punk, and Daniel Bryan won their first WWE title, Batista and Edge were still around (but on the way out). John Cena was still around. Randy Orton was still around. Triple H and the Undertaker were still around winning the top titles. And when it came time for somebody to pass a torch to the next generation, it was the Rock who passed the torch to the guy who already had the torch, John Cena.
There are less differences when it comes to watching WWE TV in late 2013 when compared to late 2006 as there are when watching WWE TV from late 2006 when compared to late 1999, and from late 1999 when compared to late 1993, and from late 1993 when compared to late 1986. Something has to change. Change can only come from the top. The top guy leaves, everything below changes. Changing the guys at the bottom while the same guys at the top don't change doesn't affect the overall structure, flow, or presentation of the program.
As such, yes, John Cena IS a part of that problem. Should he go away entirely? No, not at all. But what reason is there for John Cena and Randy Orton in late 2013 to be involved in a television program with TWO world titles? Cena should be working a schedule like the Undertaker did on Smackdown from 2007-2010 or so. It's 2013 and WWE is still trying to get Cena over, and people are STILL trying to convince others to cheer for the guy. If it hasn't taken by now, it's never going to take. Bryan winning the WWE seemed like that moment when the guard would be changed. But WWE crapped all over that. Twice. Now Bryan's a two-time WWE champion who gets the best babyface reactions from the crowd, who seemed bored as all hell by John Cena last night, who will never have his proper crowning moment because it's already happened twice, and it was taken away as quickly as it appeared. Bryan's no longer special. He's just the really over guy who has great matches.
And rather than looked at the antiquated format of their television product or the completely sloppy, haphazard way they book and promote pay-per-views, they panicked when guys like Punk or Bryan don't kick off the next new Attitude Era and they ended up slotting in a rerun tape of a program we saw four years ago. I need to be strapped in because I can't contain my excitement. Hooray.
The one thing I will say in Cena's favour is that he's the only credible person on the roster right now who could have a great Wrestlemania match against the Undertaker. I could honestly almost forgive most of the bad booking since Summerslam if that match ends up happening. Short of that, well, what's the point, really.
|
|
spagett
Hank Scorpio
Great Job!
Posts: 5,667
|
Post by spagett on Nov 26, 2013 19:49:17 GMT -5
I think what a lot of people are frustrated with is that once again the potential for change, the tease of something different has frittered away to nothing and we're left with the status quo maintained as always. The fans may be chanting for Daniel Bryan but we're given Cena vs Orton part 70.
Cena is the man and as long as the WWE never let anyone have a chance of reaching his level he'll be the man for a long long time.
|
|
SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 26, 2013 19:49:43 GMT -5
I'm looking at the threads here and reading the usual arguments about "status quo" and whatnot, and there's a major flaw in that assesment. WWE, throughout its history, has never fully conformed to the status quo, if only because new people have risen up the card alongside Cena. It could be due to injuries, or retirements, crowd responses, contracts being up, whatever, but if you want to be literal about it, the only way they could truly maintain status quo is if they managed to clone Sammartino and kept pushing him as champion. Progress can't be stopped, and WWE hasn't tried to hinder it as much as fans assume. And Cena being on top isn't because WWE said so, it's because the fanbase said so. The problem I have with the idea that Cena's still main eventing because Vince is stubborn and insists on it is that it hardly accounts for the vast, vast majority of fans that- surprise, surprise- aren't bored with him! Which also includes the kids cheering him as well as the men who want to see him get his ass whipped. Which leads me to Bryan. Fans always say that WWE "needs new stars, they haven't had new stars since 2005, make more stars, starships were meant to fly, hands up and touch the sky". Punk. Bryan. Sheamus. The Nexus as a whole, for their short time on top. Edge, when he was active. I could go on, but really, they've had plenty of new stars over the past eight years. What they haven't had is someone that has more or less "replaced" Cena as the top star, or someone that's spearheaded wrestling becoming the next big trend a la Attitude. (I don't think it was gonna be Punk. The mainstream attention he got during MITB 2011 was nothing compared to the stuff Cena did this year alone, including Good Morning America, SportsNation, Today and Kelly & Michael. Which is quite impressive given that WWE's in such a "down period".) But getting back to Talking Farm Animal: yes, he's over. He's one of the best talents they have. He deserves to be in main events, he deserves to win world titles. But let's imagine he mostly goes back to the midcard from here on out, and carves out a nice niche for himself, with him making sporadic main event appearances. That combined with what he's done now, haven't they already "pulled the trigger" on him? Why, exactly, does he have to be above Cena to instill confidence in his fans? Is John stinking up the joint that badly? Is his body in Hogan-like condition already where he's one bump from paralyzation? I consider myself a fan of Bryan's, but if I were a die hard that had followed him from the beginning, i'd be very, very happy with everything WWE's done with him as of now, especially since he seems to be having the time of his life out there. It's one thing to feel that the Authority angle is too muddled and unfocused right now, but if you truly think that Bryan will come out worse if he doesn't win the title (for a while) or becomes the new company face, then all I can say is that I would LOVE for WWE to "screw me up" if that's the standard we're going by. No offense, and I mean nothing bad by this, but your entire post (and often posts on the subject) read entirely as someone desperately insecure and oversensitive about people wanting to see Bryan take Cena's place. It's one big reach around to John, and a plea that everyone come to their senses and see that he's as wonderful and as fulfilling as you personally believe he is. And my answer to that is simple: Take everything you just knee-jerked about Cena, and everything you wrote about us needing to be satisfied with Bryan's success, and flip the roles. And there's your answer. Cena has had his spotlight. Bryan hasn't. People want him to have that same opportunity while the iron is at its absolute hottest. The truth is that Cena is still very valuable, and has a lot to offer, but at this point there aren't really any fresh stories to tell. His babyface book has been written. He even beat The Rock. His act is stale from a storytelling point of view. Bryan's isn't. Not yet, anyway.
|
|