SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 26, 2013 20:47:26 GMT -5
Would Cena, not being in the main event again, but having good matches anywhere on the card, be fine with you? And WWE does that kind of booking to justify the booing Cena gets in these face vs face matches. They know he's going to get shit on, and they don't want to fix "why", so they contrive this silly "Cena's not a real Rassler!" bullshit to paint the dissent as absurd. It's actually reverse psychology. And it's stupid. That'd be very fine with me. He's beyond done it all already, and it'd also fix mostly why he gets shit on. Then why would you care if Bryan took his place as 1a?
|
|
|
Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Nov 26, 2013 20:48:28 GMT -5
I don't see how Cena being the 1B to Bryan's 1A hurts him either? It certainly wouldn't. I'm really just tackling the idea some people have that Cena's somehow unworthy of being the company face, the misconception that he was handed everything while Bryan wasn't. That's why Bryan's "you're not a wrestler" promos bugged me so much. Most of us here know that poppycock, but scarily enough a lot of fans do think that way. And if WWE does want to keep using Cena as their mainstream figurehead, it's probably not in his or their best interest to cut him off at the knees like that by having Bryan trying to convince the crowd he sucks. There are more effective ways than that to build tension between faces. Back on topic, Bryan as The Man would be fine with me, but him having great matches anywhere on the card's fine with me also. I don't know, this just doesn't make sense to me logically. Punk and Bryan should be okay with being B and C, but because Cena is A, Cena should always be A, though you say you'd be okay with him being B or C, but that in the end he should still be A regardless because he's already just A. Taking out one's personal preferences, if the roles are really that reversible according to the logic of these relations, then it shouldn't make any difference whatsoever if Bryan, Punk, or Cena is the face of the company (A) if they are in fact that interchangeable and no one is negatively affected by the other's spot as A. Which probably says something far more telling about how WWE builds up its top talent than your fandom of Cena more than Bryan or Punk and my fandom of Bryan and Punk more than Cena.
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,852
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Nov 26, 2013 20:50:01 GMT -5
I don't get why Bryan even inspires this kind of reaction. He's not even a jerkwad like Punk or Austin, he's one of the 'good guys' like Mick Foley.
And while Foley never really got to be "The Man" either, he got more out of his title runs than Bryan has so far.
At least Foley got a 3 week reign at some point, compared to Bryan only getting 1 night.
Bryan certainly deserves better than he's been given.
|
|
|
Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 26, 2013 20:52:50 GMT -5
That'd be very fine with me. He's beyond done it all already, and it'd also fix mostly why he gets shit on. Then why would you care if Bryan took his place as 1a? I wouldn't. But maybe my OP falsely gave that impression. When I asked why Bryan had to be the face of WWE, it was in relation to Bryan's overall accomplishments, not Cena's spot. My main thing is that frustration with the Authority angle aside, I can't see how some fans would get the idea WWE doesn't care about the Hooved One overall.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 20:56:11 GMT -5
All these letters are getting confusing. Let's solve this right now.
Cena turns heel. Punk and Bryan chase. Build up another top face over the next couple of years.
I know, million reasons why it won't happen, but it damn well should. Cena's done everything he can do as a face. They need a strong heel. They've got 2 mega-popular babyfaces right now, and guys like Reigns and Langston in the wings. DO IT.
|
|
SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 26, 2013 20:57:29 GMT -5
Then why would you care if Bryan took his place as 1a? I wouldn't. But maybe my OP falsely gave that impression. When I asked why Bryan had to be the face of WWE, it was in relation to Bryan's overall accomplishments, not Cena's spot. My main thing is that frustration with the Authority angle aside, I can't see how some fans would get the idea WWE doesn't care about the Hooved One overall. Well, when he gets to have an actual run and defend the belt, your original post will hold more water. But until then, his story is unfinished. That's why people are discouraged and angry. They fear that the story has ended after Act 2, with no act 3 to redeem it.
|
|
|
Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Nov 26, 2013 20:57:37 GMT -5
I don't get why Bryan even inspires this kind of reaction. He's not even a jerkwad like Punk or Austin, he's one of the 'good guys' like Mick Foley. And while Foley never really got to be "The Man" either, he got more out of his title runs than Bryan has so far. At least Foley got a 3 week reign at some point, compared to Bryan only getting 1 night. Bryan certainly deserves better than he's been given. You're right. Though someone in the thread earlier wrote that Bryan holding the title from Summerslam to Survivor Series would have been more than adequate. Hell, Austin held the WWF title from Wrestlemania 14 to Breakdown in September before McMahon screwed him out of the title, which Austin didn't win again until the following Wrestlemania. WWE today blew through a year's worth of storylines in 6 weeks, if that, between Summerslam (Bryan being screwed out of the title) and Night of Champions (Bryan reclaiming the title) without that much buildup as to why he had to be screwed out of the title in the first place. And now that angle has (somehow) turned in Cena vs. Orton... it's just really confusing. Well, not confusing, I understand it clearly enough. It's just stupid. It'd be like Austin being screwed out of the title and deciding to go feud with the Nation for a couple of months. You wouldn't do it then, so why do it now? It's just weird, silly, and kind of sad.
|
|
|
Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 26, 2013 21:08:30 GMT -5
It certainly wouldn't. I'm really just tackling the idea some people have that Cena's somehow unworthy of being the company face, the misconception that he was handed everything while Bryan wasn't. That's why Bryan's "you're not a wrestler" promos bugged me so much. Most of us here know that poppycock, but scarily enough a lot of fans do think that way. And if WWE does want to keep using Cena as their mainstream figurehead, it's probably not in his or their best interest to cut him off at the knees like that by having Bryan trying to convince the crowd he sucks. There are more effective ways than that to build tension between faces. Back on topic, Bryan as The Man would be fine with me, but him having great matches anywhere on the card's fine with me also. I don't know, this just doesn't make sense to me logically. Punk and Bryan should be okay with being B and C, but because Cena is A, Cena should always be A, though you say you'd be okay with him being B or C, but that in the end he should still be A regardless because he's already just A. Taking out one's personal preferences, if the roles are really that reversible according to the logic of these relations, then it shouldn't make any difference whatsoever if Bryan, Punk, or Cena is the face of the company (A) if they are in fact that interchangeable and no one is negatively affected by the other's spot as A. That's what I was trying to say.
|
|
|
Post by botchingitup on Nov 26, 2013 21:11:53 GMT -5
He's saying the logic falls apart, though.
It's a total lie - they aren't interchangable. And the proof of that is that neither Bryan nor Punk has ever been the "face" while Cena has been available and not in a program that is even higher than champion.
The idea that Cena being the face is still acceptable is a lazy appeal to tradition.
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,852
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Nov 26, 2013 21:14:57 GMT -5
He's saying the logic falls apart, though. It's a total lie - they aren't interchangable. And the proof of that is that neither Bryan nor Punk has ever been the "face" while Cena has been available and not in a program that is even higher than champion. The idea that Cena being the face is still acceptable is a lazy appeal to tradition. It's almost as if they book Cena as a guy being persecuted by the internet/indie fanbase, with him shouting "ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?" at them after WWE has made him do the same old song and dance for the 1000th time.
|
|
|
Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 26, 2013 21:17:51 GMT -5
He's saying the logic falls apart, though. It's a total lie - they aren't interchangable. And the proof of that is that neither Bryan nor Punk has ever been the "face" while Cena has been available and not in a program that is even higher than champion. The idea that Cena being the face is still acceptable is a lazy appeal to tradition. It can't be because he's doing well in the role?
|
|
|
Post by botchingitup on Nov 26, 2013 21:28:54 GMT -5
It can't be because he's doing well in the role? No, because the conceit that booing works because it yields a reaction is ridiculous. The booing is feedback. It's an indication from the fans that people aren't enjoying something. Cena is the only exception to this rule because he's protected and people need to suck up and can't possibly view it any other way. It makes him "divisive" for the sake of seeming edgy. The New York Yankees comparisons in terms of "well, everyone knows who they are, and it gets a reaction!" doesn't work in a staged, scripted entertainment event. The Yankees can get away with being overexposed because they win to get there. When people say they're sick of Cena, there is no reason to say that he's unequivocally the best person for the role, especially when they're on the cusp of building proper, new people just before fumbling it right back. For all the mewling about "BUT THEY'RE MAKING PEOPLE THINK HE CAN'T WRESTLE," all of the negative criticisms being addressed are not shared by the people we're supposed to listen to, so they employ reverse psychology to attempt to make the crowd seem wrong to the viewers at home. It's an additional and potent flip-off to the fans because it allows them to essentially say to that crowd "we hear you, but don't care." No one else will ever get that treatment and you know it. And the machine being behind Cena where he's their "chosen" guy is exactly what makes it such a complete joke that he's going to likely be the big Authority toppler, when the real life subtext of the story completely undermines that. And the original story was built around real life subtext in the first place, so it's doubly damning. Please admit that you cannot possibly be objective here, stop making these kinds of threads, and move on. Please. We have heard it all before, and it is completely, glaringly, absolutely wrong to the point of hilarity. No one else gets this much benefit of the doubt on the part of the administration and no one else gets this much protection, to the point where it is completely laughable that anyone could make the claim that Cena being where he is right now is completely justified on all levels.
|
|
|
Post by angryfan on Nov 26, 2013 21:29:08 GMT -5
Cena is a company guy, they need him around. However, it's been 9 years come January. Translating that to Hulkamania, it's 1992. Vince even tried to "pass the torch" from Hogan to Warrior in 1990, which means that it would not have been out of the ordinary to have a Cena vs. ?? match for new top babyface 2 years ago.
I know, going year for year is different, different times and all that, but what does it say if the most recognizable name to non-fans in the world needed to "pass the torch" after 7 years. Cena is NEEDED by WWE, for his community work, his overness with the crowds, his ability in the ring. I don't deny any of this, doing so would be stupid.
However, does Undertaker need to come out week after week? Or is he special enough that, even if he isn't mentioned for six months, when the crowd hears that gong they go crazy. That his name alone will draw people in?
I'm not saying Cena needs to be a once a year attraction. I am saying that, if after almost 9 years, the company is afraid to have anyone other than him, or an Attitude Era star be the focal point, that speaks volumes.
They don't trust anyone else with it, because they don't need to. They can always bring back "special attractions", right?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 21:35:54 GMT -5
Even smarks get disappointed if they don't see a match result that's fun for them over and over. A lot of people like Bryan and they're excited that someone they like is actually winning. Like they get to be a mark, root for someone, and the guy actually wins. It's no fun when you get on that train and mark out...then have the logical conclusion taken away from you. No matter how many times you read the wrestling observer. =P I fully put myself in that boat btw. It disappointed me also. I had less fun watching because of what they've done. I saw this and thought "Hey, cool, MY GUY is going to get the big wins!" Didn't happen. That's no fun. I totally get that viewpoint. I'm a huge mark for certain guys and gals (Christian,AJ for instance) so I'm hugely invested in their big matches. When Christian wins a huge I mark the f*** out, it's just I don't have the same passion when they lose as some people have when their favorites lose. I look at it more as, well that sucked and get over it pretty quickly. I'm not saying people who are anger about this Bryan booking are wrong, it's just something I don't do. In reality, I do about the same as you. I'm disappointed and I move on. However I note the pattern (How couldn't I? I'm spamming a wrestling board with analytical posts). So it does kinda suck.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 21:42:51 GMT -5
I always think its funny that Cena gets a split reaction every where goes (even Boston), yet Daniel Bryan pretty much gets the whole crowd behind him.
I'm not saying Bryan HAS to be the face of WWE, but its more that WWE is so far behind the curve of what's already taken shape that its laughable at this point.
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,852
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Nov 26, 2013 21:43:28 GMT -5
Honestly, my biggest gripe with Cena at this point as that they absolutely REFUSE to put him against The Undertaker at Mania.
It's the only thing they have left with him that's at least somewhat fresh.
|
|
|
Post by botchingitup on Nov 26, 2013 21:46:15 GMT -5
Honestly, my biggest gripe with Cena at this point as that they absolutely REFUSE to put him against The Undertaker at Mania. It's the only thing they have left with him that's at least somewhat fresh. I can feel the possibility right now that Cena is going to unify at TLC, 'taker will surprise-return win the Rumble, and then they'll have Championship vs. Streak.
|
|
|
Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 26, 2013 21:47:11 GMT -5
It can't be because he's doing well in the role? No, because the conceit that booing works because it yields a reaction is ridiculous. The booing is feedback. It's an indication from the fans that people aren't enjoying something. Cena is the only exception to this rule because he's protected and people need to suck up and can't possibly view it any other way. It makes him "divisive" for the sake of seeming edgy. The New York Yankees comparisons in terms of "well, everyone knows who they are, and it gets a reaction!" doesn't work in a staged, scripted entertainment event. The Yankees can get away with being overexposed because they win to get there. When people say they're sick of Cena, there is no reason to say that he's unequivocally the best person for the role, especially when they're on the cusp of building proper, new people just before fumbling it right back. For all the mewling about "BUT THEY'RE MAKING PEOPLE THINK HE CAN'T WRESTLE," all of the negative criticisms being addressed are not shared by the people we're supposed to listen to, so they employ reverse psychology to attempt to make the crowd seem wrong to the viewers at home. It's an additional and potent flip-off to the fans because it allows them to essentially say to that crowd "we hear you, but don't care." No one else will ever get that treatment and you know it. And the machine being behind Cena where he's their "chosen" guy is exactly what makes it such a complete joke that he's going to likely be the big Authority toppler, when the real life subtext of the story completely undermines that. And the original story was built around real life subtext in the first place, so it's doubly damning. Please admit that you cannot possibly be objective here, stop making these kinds of threads, and move on. Please. We have heard it all before, and it is completely, glaringly, absolutely wrong to the point of hilarity. No one else gets this much benefit of the doubt on the part of the administration and no one else gets this much protection, to the point where it is completely laughable that anyone could make the claim that Cena being where he is right now is completely justified on all levels. I don't think selling "Cena Sucks" shirts at one point was the best way for them to make fans feel ashamed for booing Cena. The biggest problem with the way he's handled, IMO, is that they can't seem to decide whether he's a Hogan like figure that deserves our respect, or a charlatan that deserves to be mocked (the Punk/Rock/Bryan feuds). If they would pick one route and stick with it his reactions would probably be more unified, but they seem to be happy with what they've got. I admit I probably shouldn't have started making a point about Cena before I discussed Bryan in the first post, that was mostly a preliminary opinion to refute any argument about him allegedly being more "worthy" than Cena to be the top dog. I had other fans in mind when I wrote that.
|
|
|
Post by botchingitup on Nov 26, 2013 21:52:57 GMT -5
I don't think selling "Cena Sucks" shirts at one point was the best way for them to make fans feel ashamed for booing Cena. The WWE will put a quick buck ahead of anything and you KNOW that. The Cena Sucks shirts are indicative of nothing. It was an easy way of cashing in on a craze by monetizing it and taking it away from the fans. Once they acknowledge and normalize it, it ends up becoming part of the show. WWE couldn't deal with the fact that it wasn't part of the show, so they made it that, which took it away from the fans that were sick of Cena. Ever see the South Park episode where the parents defeat the Japanese plan to bomb Pearl Harbor by pretending to like Chinpokomon? That's what the WWE is essentially trying to do. This isn't a good rebuttal, it's proving my freakin' point.Bull. He's a Hogan that deserves our respect, but he's SO TOTALLY EDGY AND IN MY FACE, YO. The divisiveness is just there to give him a mystic aura and give more fuel for LISTEN TO HOW ELECTRIC IT IS IN THE (insert arena). It's to make him look better because controversy makes you cool in some capacity, but without going full bore and making it a new character. But they do nothing to the criticism and just have him sit there so he gets extra attention and black-holes up the booking even more. That's exactly why it's all bullcrap to say that there's any doubts about how we are supposed to view Cena in the first place. That still won't fix the problem - you are literally incapable of understanding why people might be angry because you're absorbed into Cena to the point where you are unreachable. You have virtually no empathy towards fans that don't have your viewpoint in this conversation, which is WHY I'm so annoyed with you. "But I don't get it, WHY can't my guy that has been on top for 9 years keep being on top?" "Because we're sick of him." "But...why? People are hard!"
|
|
|
Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 26, 2013 22:06:06 GMT -5
I don't think selling "Cena Sucks" shirts at one point was the best way for them to make fans feel ashamed for booing Cena. The WWE will put a quick buck ahead of anything and you KNOW that. The Cena Sucks shirts are indicative of nothing. It was an easy way of cashing in on a craze by monetizing it and taking it away from the fans. Once they acknowledge and normalize it, it ends up becoming part of the show. WWE couldn't deal with the fact that it wasn't part of the show, so they made it that, which took it away from the fans that were sick of Cena. Ever see the South Park episode where the parents defeat the Japanese plan to bomb Pearl Harbor by pretending to like Chinpokomon? That's what the WWE is essentially trying to do. This isn't a good rebuttal, it's proving my freakin' point.Bull. He's a Hogan that deserves our respect, but he's SO TOTALLY EDGY AND IN MY FACE, YO. The divisiveness is just there to give him a mystic aura and give more fuel for LISTEN TO HOW ELECTRIC IT IS IN THE (insert arena). It's to make him look better because controversy makes you cool in some capacity, but without going full bore and making it a new character. But they do nothing to the criticism and just have him sit there so he gets extra attention and black-holes up the booking even more. That's exactly why it's all bullcrap to say that there's any doubts about how we are supposed to view Cena in the first place. That still won't fix the problem - you are literally incapable of understanding why people might be angry because you're absorbed into Cena to the point where you are unreachable. You have virtually no empathy towards fans that don't have your viewpoint in this conversation, which is WHY I'm so annoyed with you. "But I don't get it, WHY can't my guy that has been on top for 9 years keep being on top?" "Because we're sick of him." "But...why? People are hard!" "Empathy"? We're talking about a dumb show where people fake fight, it's not like we're discussing serious issues. I can't convince people not to be bored with something, it's easy to be bored with one guy being on top for eight years. That's why I wouldn't mind if Bryan did replace him, but if he doesn't, eh. Of course I'm gonna have a built in bias there, considering he's not my #1. Still, I don't know where you keep getting the idea I want Cena to stay on top forever, given the numerous points in this thread where I said otherwise. And to be honest, this chat wasn't meant to be about him (which is also partially my fault, but those things happen).
|
|