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Post by Dave the Dave on Nov 27, 2013 13:38:28 GMT -5
Right. That still doesn't make the booking make sense. Just because someone has it worse doesn't mean a different situation doesn't suck. The Great Depression was worse than the US. economy now but it still isn't ideal. It's hard to feel sorry for one person who's been solidified as a upper tier/main eventer for years now, with multiple title reigns. They've pushed Daniel Bryan hard. You really can't argue that they didn't listen to the fans. The fans wanted a DB push and they got a DB push, several of them. Memorable ones. They had him beat John Cena clean at their second biggest show of the year. Daniel Bryan has been an established guy at either Upper midcard level to main event level for about three years now, as I recall. Ryback went from being just a buy with an eerily familiar gimmick to an upper midcard/main level guy. He's been at that level for a year now. Did they push either of them right? That's debatable. I'd say they messed up a few times. Did they take the fans into consideration when they decided to give these guys opportunities? Absolutely. That's one of the main reasons they were successful. Those are good points. That should have been the first post instead of a sassy retort with superficial insights as to what you thought. I less agree with then resenting fans as well, but Ryback was derailed to stick the Rock plans they had. Do I expect them to not being in the Rock because of Ryback? Of course not....but they just held him in check until Rock was gone 6 months later and failed. If they wait like that with Bryan, the same thing could happen.
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Post by Old Jack Burton on Nov 27, 2013 13:40:30 GMT -5
Welcome to the corporate wrestling era. I don't think that they outright resent fans as much as they're just so behind the times when it comes to what sells and what people want to see and they don't understand why people go crazy for D-Bry and don't react to Orton vs. Cena or Alberto despite those matches/guys being huge deals if they had been around 20 years ago. As long as they're making lots of $$$$ they'll continue presenting their particular vision of wrestling. If there were another promotion with a national TV deal that had any clue what they were doing I think that they could do some damage to the E, but there's not so as long as we as fans keep watching/going to the shows and buying the merch the E doesn't really care. Basically Vince used to be the ultimate risk taker and now he's older and doesn't have much reason or incentive to risk things as they pertain to his wrestling shows. I disagree. I don't think Daniel Bryan would've had multiple matches with The Shield, beaten John Cena clean, or be in a tagteam with CM Punk if WWE didn't understand why people go crazy for him. The booking may not always reflect it, but I don't think Vince is as out of touch as people would like to believe. I think that Vince is very aware of what is popular and what's not, and I think that's why people like Bryan and Punk have risen to prominence. It's not all on HHH, and of course those guys made their own destinies to the greatest extent. However, I think many times Vince just plain old doesn't like those guys. They're too much of those damn wrasslers that he's been trying to get rid of for years. So there's an internal war. WWE is sort of a two-faced organization these days.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 13:43:58 GMT -5
Welcome to the corporate wrestling era. I don't think that they outright resent fans as much as they're just so behind the times when it comes to what sells and what people want to see and they don't understand why people go crazy for D-Bry and don't react to Orton vs. Cena or Alberto despite those matches/guys being huge deals if they had been around 20 years ago. As long as they're making lots of $$$$ they'll continue presenting their particular vision of wrestling. If there were another promotion with a national TV deal that had any clue what they were doing I think that they could do some damage to the E, but there's not so as long as we as fans keep watching/going to the shows and buying the merch the E doesn't really care. Basically Vince used to be the ultimate risk taker and now he's older and doesn't have much reason or incentive to risk things as they pertain to his wrestling shows. I disagree. I don't think Daniel Bryan would've had multiple matches with The Shield, beaten John Cena clean, or be in a tagteam with CM Punk if WWE didn't understand why people go crazy for him. The booking may not always reflect it, but I don't think Vince is as out of touch as people would like to believe. Have they pushed him? Yes. Have they treated him as a big deal? Yes, but you're sort of not seeing the forest for the trees in my post by focusing on the Daniel Bryan part of it, and that's that while they've presented D-Bry and some other guys as big deals they seem to still see them as a risk at the top of the card without an anchor(HHH/Cena/Orton/whoever)despite getting better reactions than all of them and that's why they keep going back to things like Orton/Show/Cena at the top of the card. Will they push D-Bry that way? Only time will tell and that's for another thread, and I of course can be wrong but that's the way that I see things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 13:51:13 GMT -5
Exhibit A: OK, we get the point. It's clear from that picture what the WWE fans are craving for. WE WANT BATISTA!WE WANT BATISTA!
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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Nov 27, 2013 13:56:12 GMT -5
It's hard to feel sorry for one person who's been solidified as a upper tier/main eventer for years now, with multiple title reigns. They've pushed Daniel Bryan hard. You really can't argue that they didn't listen to the fans. The fans wanted a DB push and they got a DB push, several of them. Memorable ones. They had him beat John Cena clean at their second biggest show of the year. Daniel Bryan has been an established guy at either Upper midcard level to main event level for about three years now, as I recall. Ryback went from being just a buy with an eerily familiar gimmick to an upper midcard/main level guy. He's been at that level for a year now. Did they push either of them right? That's debatable. I'd say they messed up a few times. Did they take the fans into consideration when they decided to give these guys opportunities? Absolutely. That's one of the main reasons they were successful. Those are good points. That should have been the first post instead of a sassy retort with superficial insights as to what you thought. I less agree with then resenting fans as well, but Ryback was derailed to stick the Rock plans they had. Do I expect them to not being in the Rock because of Ryback? Of course not....but they just held him in check until Rock was gone 6 months later and failed. If they wait like that with Bryan, the same thing could happen. My sassy retort was a response to your original sassy retort. That's the way these things work, no harm. They did hold Ryback back because of things beyond their control, this is true. He lost a lot of steam as a result, but I do not believe that this was malicious, nor do I believe that it was due to the theory--mentioned by some--that the WWE resents the fans. After all, if there was ever a guy that fits the WWE's idea as to what a superstar looks like, it's Ryback. You're right to be worried about DB's momentum being lost if he's not brought back into the main story at some point in the near future. However, if the past several years has shown anything, he can get it back pretty quick. The fans are behind him and the WWE's behind him largely because of this. The only person I can think of, in recent years, that has not gotten an extended push from the WWE based on fan reaction is Zach Ryder. They did put him in a major storyline for several months and gave him the US title, but he was soon depushed despite getting a good reaction most of the time. I think a lot of this had to do with some of his whiny remarks on Twitter...and the fact his character is a mid card comedy act that is tailor made to not go anywhere, in the eyes of management. It just seemed like the US title was going to be his high water mark no matter what. They should feature him more, though. There's room for him as a character.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Nov 27, 2013 13:59:15 GMT -5
The weird focus on "the top of the card" is something that just doesn't apply to a weekly TV show. People need to stop thinking that way.
I think what people perceive as the WWE disdaining their fans is at least 75% the WWE writers needing to keep an eye on long-term booking as well as the immediate. If listening to your fans means that one or two dead crowds can stop an angle in its tracks, then yeah, don't do that.
Now, that said, there ARE Zack Ryder situations where a guy is punished for getting over, and that's never not bullshit. And then there's Shelton Benjamon situations where a guy is punished for NOT getting over, even though they gave him nothing to work with but a title he never defended.
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Post by hossfan on Nov 27, 2013 14:09:07 GMT -5
This question is sort of hovering in the background of a lot of threads and discussions on this board and many others, so let's just have it. Is there a resentment in the WWE brass towards the fans wanting and liking certain things they haven't "told" them to like? Exhibit A: among many others. Exhibit A is not valid, because WWE have "told" the fans to like Bryan since he started with the company.
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Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
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Post by Chip on Nov 27, 2013 14:17:58 GMT -5
Basically Vince used to be the ultimate risk taker and now he's older and doesn't have much reason or incentive to risk things as they pertain to his wrestling shows. With this I feel like Vince is more then aware that he's getting a tad old and as such, doesn't want to run the risk of causing a mess he has to leave for other people to clean up.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
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Post by Bo Rida on Nov 27, 2013 14:43:27 GMT -5
I think what people perceive as the WWE disdaining their fans is at least 75% the WWE writers needing to keep an eye on long-term booking as well as the immediate. Yeah I think that's an issue, in the long-term they value and listen to fans but not in the short-term. This can be a good or bad thing, sometimes they're right to keep pushing somebody that's not quite catching on because once everything clicks together that person could be hugely successful but on he flip side they don't want to throw out long-term plans on what could just be the flavour of the month. A classic case was back in the legacy days when the crowd erupted for Cody when Orton attacked his Dad, do you go with the crowd and throw out months of planned storylines and advertised tour matches and give Cody a massive push that may not work out? Or do you edit out the crowd reaction and pretend it never happened? That's before you get to the differences between audiences, perhaps best seen recently with largely British/smarky crowds going mad for Fandango but him not being so over in certain areas of the USA, it's not something they can easily predict and doesn't really fit in with the usual stereotypes of the different audience segments. It's a difficult balance to get right but I think WWE are generally too slow to react these days, apart from on NXT where crowd reactions heavily influence booking. Actually with Bo they showed both their "we know best" stubbornness and listened to the crowd, it's actually turned out quite nicely in this instance.
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Post by angryfan on Nov 27, 2013 15:07:14 GMT -5
After I posted earlier, I got to thinking about another question that is related. What crowds do you listen to?
Yes, we have discussions and arguments on here all the time about crowds "getting themselves over" or "being too marky", but if I'm doing a traveling show, and I want to know who to push, how do I make the decision as to what will look best on television?
I hear all the time about how crowds in the bigger cities like NYC, Philly, or Chicago are full of smarks, or how they just want to get themselves over. Canada, for ages, has been "bizzarroworld" because of how they react.
Going further back, we often saw crowds in the south reject WWF's product because they preferred WCW or NWA style booking.
I can say, and I think most would agree, that WWE sees the "best" crowd as one that is not only loud, but cheers who is being pushed as a face and boos those who are heels, and remain enthusiastic throughout the show.
Thing is, those crowds do not exist, haven't in a very long time. Frankly, we can say "Oh, it's the internet, and those damn dirt sheets", but it's also Vince's fault.
If I go to a baseball game, I don't sit on my hands or go to the concession stand when the bottom of the order is up. I stay because the narrative isn't, "Only the middle of the lineup is worth anything, everybody else is replacable".
But that IS the WWE narrative. Before the Congressional hearings when Vince went on TV and said "Yep, all fake, we're not a sport so the commissions can suck it", the fans (even if they knew or thought it was fake or rigged) cared about the whole card. A midcarder was a guy working his way up, he was important because he was the third or fourth contender, or whatever, to the big title, and was gunning for the secondary belt because it would give him not only prestige but a shot at the title.
Now? No titles matter. Even the top ones. Up until 2000, how many double diget world champions were there? Flair at 17, Hogan, and then who? You've got people playing hot potato with every other title, and those don't mean anything to anyone.
I think if they could, Vince would have the live shows, but CGI in a crowd reacting "properly". "You make the stars" is the mantra, and while that is still true in terms of paying customers, it's still a multiple choice test where Vince picks the A through E answers.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 27, 2013 15:09:22 GMT -5
Basically yes, especially when the fans do not cooperate with their preferred booking. If the fans react differently, WWE tends to be petulant, which is ultimately damaging to the company.
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Post by Old Jack Burton on Nov 27, 2013 15:19:19 GMT -5
Exhibit A is not valid, because WWE have "told" the fans to like Bryan since he started with the company. I agree that Bryan has been groomed for a top spot since he signed, but on Monday you had fans chanting "DANIEL BRYAN" over a promo between the two guys WWE has pushed over, and over, and over again (with one of them never truly achieving the popularity Bryan has already enjoyed). Do you think WWE will respond positively to this action? As an extra note, I remembered one of the recent moments when I felt like WWE was really trying to put down the longtime fans. That moment was when the anonymous GM was revealed as Hornswoggle. The lack of respect for the longtime viewer and their investment in the story was staggering. All the time spent, and all of the speculation wasted on a throwaway joke about the dwarf.
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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Nov 27, 2013 15:27:34 GMT -5
I don't know if they resent their fans I just think they are crazy. Example: After Mania where the 17 seconds match happened you had them basically encouraging the Yes chants and then editing them out of Smackdown. Who does this? Crazy people that's who
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Nov 27, 2013 15:30:40 GMT -5
Wrestlers go their entire careers just wishing they could get treated as "badly" by the WWE as Ryback and Daniel Bryan. I don't get what you're going for here. I don't care how the wrestler "feels" about his treatment. It's all about doing right by the fans. If the fans give their support to something, WWE shouldn't shut then down. It's not going to effect the wrestler. He's going to get paid no matter what. What it will effect is how people see your product. That's the difference.
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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Nov 27, 2013 15:35:40 GMT -5
Wrestlers go their entire careers just wishing they could get treated as "badly" by the WWE as Ryback and Daniel Bryan. I don't get what you're going for here. I don't care how the wrestler "feels" about his treatment. It's all about doing right by the fans. If the fans give their support to something, WWE shouldn't shut then down. It's not going to effect the wrestler. He's going to get paid no matter what. What it will effect is how people see your product. That's the difference. My point was essentially this: If WWE shut down either of those guys, then they did a bad job. They're both still in strong positions on the card. They had fan support. The WWE responded positively to said fan support. They both got pushes, DB's was a lot stronger than Ryback's, but they were both good pushes. DB's further established him and Ryback's put him on the road to further success.
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Bad Moon
Unicron
for reasons known only to the goblins that live in my brain
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Post by Bad Moon on Nov 27, 2013 15:40:50 GMT -5
I don't think they're resentful so much as they're out of touch. I'm reminded of something Paul Heyman said in an interview regarding Vince McMahon, he likes to be in control and build his own little universe where he makes the rules and everything outside of whatever he decides for himself is either irrelevant or wrong. He's not stupid, he wouldn't have had as much success as he did if he was stupid, but he's very anal retentive and if something out of his control happens (like his audience getting behind people he doesn't want them too) he doesn't know how to react to that because he didn't plan for it, so he ignores it and hopes it goes away quietly.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 27, 2013 15:45:04 GMT -5
Vince is an insane control freak. He doesn't resent fans so much as he just thinks his archaic, flawed and broken view of wrestling is correct, and without competition to force his hand again, he has since slid back into his comfort zone and produced the kind of shlock shit that almost ran his company into the ground in 1995.
This is a man who invents contrived buzzwords and makes lists of other words people aren't allowed to say. This is a guy who rather than putting on a really great wrestling show after the whole Denver incident, staged a big crybaby act with his "fake fighting show" as a backdrop, wherein he yelled "Ennis!" over and over like an idiot. This is also a guy who had Obama, Hilary and McCain give promos to encourage voting, then, in the same show, had a mock match with only Obama and Hilary impostors, revealing how "impartial" he really is, and who you should have really voted for. And don't get me started on the Trump/Rosie thing, or how he hates sneezing.
The sooner he's diagnosed senile and sent packing to the old age looney bin like Verne Gagne, the sooner, hopefully, HHH will stifle the equally imbecilic Stephanie and her ideas, and present a product that actually makes sense, and actually resembles a sport, like he and those who know better grew up on. Instead of some media scrap seeking circle jerk muppet show with the world's worst actors and comedians. Oh, and hopefully, by that point HHH can't wrestle. That's an important factor.
The end.
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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Nov 27, 2013 15:48:28 GMT -5
Vince is an insane control freak. He doesn't resent fans so much as he just thinks his archaic, flawed and broken view of wrestling is correct, and without competition to force his hand again, he has since slid back into his comfort zone and produced the kind of shlock shit that almost ran his company into the ground in 1995. This is a man who invents contrived buzzwords and makes lists of other words people aren't allowed to say. This is a guy who rather than putting on a really great wrestling show after the whole Denver incident, staged a big crybaby act with his "fake fighting show" as a backdrop, wherein he yelled "Ennis!" over and over like an idiot. This is also a guy who had Obama, Hilary and McCain give promos to encourage voting, then, in the same show, had a mock match with only Obama and Hilary impostors, revealing how "impartial" he really is, and who you should have really voted for. And don't get me started on the Trump/Rosie thing, or how he hates sneezing. The sooner he's diagnosed senile and sent packing to the old age looney bin like Verne Gagne, the sooner, hopefully, HHH will stifle the equally imbecilic Stephanie and her ideas, and present a product that actually makes sense, and actually resembles a sport, like he and those who know better grew up on. Instead of some media scrap seeking circle jerk muppet show with the world's worst actors and comedians. Oh, and hopefully, by that point HHH can't wrestle. That's an important factor. The end. I disagree with certain parts of this. However, TheWrestlingFan4Life!
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Nov 27, 2013 15:48:59 GMT -5
My point was essentially this: If WWE shut down either of those guys, then they did a bad job. They had fan support. The WWE responded positively to said fan support. They both got pushes, DB's was a lot stronger than Ryback's, but they were both good pushes. DB's further established him and Ryback's put him on the road to further success. I don't know if WWE exactly did what they should have done. First with Bryan, they originally weren't trying with him. Making him chant "no" and constantly ridiculing him with 18 seconds or goatface which is underselling a person who is getting some of the best reactions. Sure, they eventually turned the corner, but that's only because you can ignore the fans for so long. And even then, Bryan's "big push" came off more as an appeasement than anything else. If someone claims that WWE mishandled Bryan, all they have to say is "well, he's a 2 time WWE champion...what else do you want?". Yes, he gets TV time and all that, but I think the audience would like to see more. TV time doesn't mean that they can't do better. So why not experiment a bit? You can't tell me that during the 23 hours that Bryan was WWE champion, that he ruined things. Go all the way, or don't try at all. With Ryback? He wasn't who I would have predicted to get a push when it happened, so I don't think he exactly had the fans clamoring when it occurred. More or less, people on here were confused by it since there hadn't been any indicator he would be in a title program...he more or less just showed up. Fans embraced this afterward. And you know what? The only reason Ryback got that push was because they needed someone to face the dastardly Punk. And what happened once Ryback was over and WWE had other faces? They made him look like a bitch and turned him heel. Now no one cares. I think a great example of WWE listening to the audience was with Eddie Guerrero in 2002. He turned heel on his partner Tajiri and the fans cheered him for. The fans aren't stupid and they preferred Eddie over Tajiri. If that happened today, WWE would try even harder to get a heel reaction or to put him on the backburner. He may have still gotten a push out of the deal, but he may have never had his moment at No Way Out. Thankfully, WWE did the right thing and just embraced it. They hardly do this anymore and usually go right back to the standard old bland formula.
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Post by 2 Cold Scorkum on Nov 27, 2013 15:54:27 GMT -5
naw man they just resent you don't feel bad about it
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