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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Nov 27, 2013 15:55:56 GMT -5
My point was essentially this: If WWE shut down either of those guys, then they did a bad job. They had fan support. The WWE responded positively to said fan support. They both got pushes, DB's was a lot stronger than Ryback's, but they were both good pushes. DB's further established him and Ryback's put him on the road to further success. I don't know if WWE exactly did what they should have done. First with Bryan, they originally weren't trying with him. Making him chant "no" and constantly ridiculing him with 18 seconds or goatface which is underselling a person who is getting some of the best reactions. Sure, they eventually turned the corner, but that's only because you can ignore the fans for so long. And even then, Bryan's "big push" came off more as an appeasement than anything else. If someone claims that WWE mishandled Bryan, all they have to say is "well, he's a 2 time WWE champion...what else do you want?". Yes, he gets TV time and all that, but I think the audience would like to see more. TV time doesn't mean that they can't do better. So why not experiment a bit? You can't tell me that during the 23 hours that Bryan was WWE champion, that he ruined things. Go all the way, or don't try at all. With Ryback? He wasn't who I would have predicted to get a push when it happened, so I don't think he exactly had the fans clamoring when it occurred. More or less, people on here were confused by it since there hadn't been any indicator he would be in a title program...he more or less just showed up. Fans embraced this afterward. And you know what? The only reason Ryback got that push was because they needed someone to face the dastardly Punk. And what happened once Ryback was over and WWE had other faces? They made him look like a bitch and turned him heel. Now no one cares. I think a great example of WWE listening to the audience was with Eddie Guerrero in 2002. He turned heel on his partner Tajiri and the fans cheered him for. The fans aren't stupid and they preferred Eddie over Tajiri. If that happened today, WWE would try even harder to get a heel reaction or to put him on the backburner. He may have still gotten a push out of the deal, but he may have never had his moment at No Way Out. Thankfully, WWE did the right thing and just embraced it. They hardly do this anymore and usually go right back to the standard old bland formula. Oh, don't get me wrong. I understand your misgivings with how their pushes panned out. That's a different story altogether. However, I think that ultimately the WWE listened to the fans with both guys. With Ryback, depending on whether or not you believe the newz stories, he may have had some things going against him behind the scenes in regards to his alleged attitude/safety as a worker. WWE could do better, but some people seem to suggest that they've ruined both guys just to show the smarks who's boss. That's not the case.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Nov 27, 2013 15:59:06 GMT -5
This question is sort of hovering in the background of a lot of threads and discussions on this board and many others, so let's just have it. Is there a resentment in the WWE brass towards the fans wanting and liking certain things they haven't "told" them to like? Exhibit A: among many others. Exhibit A is not valid, because WWE have "told" the fans to like Bryan since he started with the company. Yeah right. A losing streak on NXT, Michael Cole constantly telling everyone how much of a loser he is, and 18 seconds. If it hadn't been the huge uproar after WrestleMania 28, Bryan would probably still be wrestling in the midcards for the US title or something.
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Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
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Post by Lancers on Nov 27, 2013 15:59:08 GMT -5
Resent is a strong word to say. I do think due to their winning of the war between them and WCW makes them think they have a better handle on comprehending what's good for their company long-term when it pertains to the people they deem worthy of elevating into the main event scene. And when you consider WCW's greatest run was led by former WWE guys that formed the nWo, they do have a valid case.
Which is why I found the Authority angle in its initial form to be so fascinating. The things Triple H and Steph would say on the mic is by at large how a corporation with shareholders truly does operate. A business that succeeds tends to believe it's their ingenuity and foresight that drives their success, not due to the effort from their lower level employees who put in the hours and hard work. While the higher-ups can say all the right things and make comments like how they appreciate the work the little guys do, the mentality of an executive is that they know what's best for business.
That being said, I disagree with most posters here. I believe the company does like Daniel Bryan. I think he will be a world champion in 2014. While I certainly agree that their booking was horrible this autumn surrounding Bryan as the centerpiece, he still was the centerpiece until Cena's return. He main evented every program. Every PPV. He got quite a bit of mic time. And he's still getting solid reactions after that horrendous angle with Orton that could have easily sunk his battleship.
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Post by Society of the Spectacle on Nov 27, 2013 16:03:07 GMT -5
Basically, I was going to make pretty much the exact arguments that the previous posts by CARELESS and barbeerian did.
Sure, indy/underdog fans are quick to cry fowl when they perceive that their favorites seem to get the shaft. I'm right there with them, though I try to keep things in perspective. However, I think a large reason why indy/underdog fans are so protective of their favorites when they make the WWE roster is because they know Vince (and now Triple H) can be extremely egotistical, self-centered, and stubborn people.
True be told, those very same traits are assets to us when they're doing good. At the end of the day, Vince is basically responsible for the absolute worst moments in WWE TV history, but at the same time, he is also responsible for the most amazing, magical moments that made us the fans we are, and a large part of why we are even fans, posting on this board right now. Same with with Hunter. For some, he has been a torturous, repulsive presence in WWE, and yet he is now basically the one responsible for single handedly producing one of the best wrestling shows in the world right now in NXT, and the extremely bright future of the developmental roster.
It is the McMahon personality that makes us suspect that they would go so far as to resent someone for getting "over" on their own merit. It might be completely false, or it might be true, but I'm pretty sure that's what it all stems from. I try to take the good with the bad, because even though for someone like Bryan, Vince gave the okay to have him lose to every single match in the original NXT, but it was also Vince who likely said last August, "Okay, John, it's Bryan's night, let's make him look like a million bucks."
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 27, 2013 16:04:04 GMT -5
WWE have reluctantly pushed DB. As it's been mentioned, they've been verbally burying him since day one. This is no way to build a star.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 27, 2013 16:10:08 GMT -5
Resent is a strong word to say. I do think due to their winning of the war between them and WCW makes them think they have a better handle on comprehending what's good for their company long-term when it pertains to the people they deem worthy of elevating into the main event scene. And when you consider WCW's greatest run was led by former WWE guys that formed the nWo, they do have a valid case. By the same token, that style of booking soon led WCW into a financial black hole that they never climbed out of. It was the very definition of short-sightedness.
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Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
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Post by Lancers on Nov 27, 2013 16:15:54 GMT -5
Resent is a strong word to say. I do think due to their winning of the war between them and WCW makes them think they have a better handle on comprehending what's good for their company long-term when it pertains to the people they deem worthy of elevating into the main event scene. And when you consider WCW's greatest run was led by former WWE guys that formed the nWo, they do have a valid case. By the same token, that style of booking soon led WCW into a financial black hole that they never climbed out of. It was the very definition of short-sightedness. Right, but when WCW was using those former WWE guys, the WWE was creating a new crop of stars. And two of them (Austin and Foley) were former WCW guys that WCW had absolutely no use for. It's truly a testament to WWE's track record of building anyone into a star. That said, the thing that is unfortunate was that their stardom was done in an era where the WWE had no choice but to elevate the guys getting the hottest reactions. That era has long passed. And now we are in an era where WWE has no competition and, if they choose, go back to the archaic ways of elevating their handpicked guys like Del Rio and Sheamus.
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kevin
El Dandy
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Post by kevin on Nov 27, 2013 16:22:33 GMT -5
WWE have reluctantly pushed DB. As it's been mentioned, they've been verbally burying him since day one. This is no way to build a star. What shows have you been watching because its not smackdown or Raw. Daniel bryan after returning to face nexus has been booked as a big deal. replace reluctantly in your post with enthusiastically and that will match what i have watched for 3 years. Though i love the guy saying making him say no was trying to bury him while forgetting THAT HE WAS THE WORLD CHAMPION AT THE TIME! Every time I read that they are burying Bryan or not pushing him i feel like posts from an alternate universe must be sliping onto these boards.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 27, 2013 16:25:34 GMT -5
Exhibit A: OK, we get the point. It's clear from that picture what the WWE fans are craving for. WE WANT BATISTA!WE WANT BATISTA!Who doesn't want Batista back? Face or heel, he was the shit.
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Spider2024
Patti Mayonnaise
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I believe in Joe Hendry.
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Post by Spider2024 on Nov 27, 2013 16:26:05 GMT -5
Yes.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 27, 2013 16:28:11 GMT -5
To answer your question, no, I don't think they resent their fans. They just have a really bizarre idea of what people want to see.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 27, 2013 16:28:50 GMT -5
WWE have reluctantly pushed DB. As it's been mentioned, they've been verbally burying him since day one. This is no way to build a star. What shows have you been watching because its not smackdown or Raw. Daniel bryan after returning to face nexus has been booked as a big deal. replace reluctantly in your post with enthusiastically and that will match what i have watched for 3 years. Though i love the guy saying making him say no was trying to bury him while forgetting THAT HE WAS THE WORLD CHAMPION AT THE TIME! Every time I read that they are burying Bryan or not pushing him i feel like posts from an alternate universe must be sliping onto these boards. During his world title reign, Michael Cole constantly pissed all over him verbally, with no retort or comeback. There IS an alternative universe where people only see the accomplishments listed on paper and ignore everything else.
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wisdomwizard
King Koopa
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Watching you.
Posts: 11,087
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Post by wisdomwizard on Nov 27, 2013 16:30:50 GMT -5
No, they don't. Vince may be crazy at times, but I just think there have been times where things get too ahead of them and they have trouble handling the pressure and keeping things intact. As someone already pointed out, there are far more times they've listened to the fans than they haven't. And why or how do you feel this way? To come into a discussion thread like this to just add in a one-word post is kind of off-putting.
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Spider2024
Patti Mayonnaise
Dedicated 6,666th post to Irontyger
I believe in Joe Hendry.
Posts: 39,781
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Post by Spider2024 on Nov 27, 2013 16:32:48 GMT -5
And why or how do you feel this way? To come into a discussion thread like this to just add in a one-word post is kind of off-putting. Sorry, I'm still angry over how this Bryan vs Evil Bosses feud has gone.
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Post by Old Jack Burton on Nov 27, 2013 16:34:04 GMT -5
Exhibit A is not valid, because WWE have "told" the fans to like Bryan since he started with the company. Yeah right. A losing streak on NXT, Michael Cole constantly telling everyone how much of a loser he is, and 18 seconds. Unless you consider all of this negative attention was a way to put the fans on his side.
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Bad Moon
Unicron
for reasons known only to the goblins that live in my brain
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Post by Bad Moon on Nov 27, 2013 16:35:31 GMT -5
OK, we get the point. It's clear from that picture what the WWE fans are craving for. WE WANT BATISTA!WE WANT BATISTA!Who doesn't want Batista back? Face or heel, he was the shit. I would die happy if I never ever had to watch Batista wrestle again in my lifetime, but he was GOLD on the microphone. Such a fantastic character. He should teach classes at the performance center on how to be a douchebag, imagine what Ziggler or del Rio could be if they had even a fraction of Batista's cocky bastardry.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 27, 2013 16:37:16 GMT -5
Yeah right. A losing streak on NXT, Michael Cole constantly telling everyone how much of a loser he is, and 18 seconds. Unless you consider all of this negative attention was a way to put the fans on his side. There are easier ways to do that. Goldberg managed to get fan support. He didn't need Tony Schiavone constantly saying "this guy's a loser, he's boring, what a goon, he sucks!!!". Even an underdog can be booked more positively than that.
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Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
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Post by Lancers on Nov 27, 2013 16:40:37 GMT -5
Not giving Bryan a proper title run at Summerslam was the single biggest mistake this company made this year. This whole evil authority angle could have been brewing for a few weeks and have culminated with the Orton/HHH heel turn at a later PPV like HIAC or Survivor Series.
They continuously book Bryan as the underdog, and it works for Bryan. The guy is 5'8" and probably under 200 pounds. The fans pine for him more than anyone else. This company isn't that tone deaf. They're fully aware of what's transpiring. Maybe there's an element of truth to the idea that Bryan isn't what this company ideally wants to be their #1 guy. But let's be real. This company's objective is to make money. They're not that vindictive and stupid that they would spite someone who can make millions of dollars because he doesn't fit their mold. Because if they truly ran their business that way, they would fail.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Nov 27, 2013 17:02:58 GMT -5
What shows have you been watching because its not smackdown or Raw. Daniel bryan after returning to face nexus has been booked as a big deal. replace reluctantly in your post with enthusiastically and that will match what i have watched for 3 years. Though i love the guy saying making him say no was trying to bury him while forgetting THAT HE WAS THE WORLD CHAMPION AT THE TIME! Every time I read that they are burying Bryan or not pushing him i feel like posts from an alternate universe must be sliping onto these boards. During his world title reign, Michael Cole constantly pissed all over him verbally, with no retort or comeback. There IS an alternative universe where people only see the accomplishments listed on paper and ignore everything else. Michael Cole was eyeball deep in his heel announcer character at the time. Do you think people were agreeing with him? The same people that, as has been expressed time and again on this thread, aren't going to let the WWE tell them who to root for? But they're going to let WWE tell them not to like Bryan? I can't quite rap my mind around that. They picked him out of all the NXT guys for Cole to pick on -- and the ones he didn't "bury" are mostly forgotten and long gone by now. Cole singling him out got Bryan sympathy and made him important. He did retort and comeback -- IN THE RING. Cole would be saying during a match that this little guy couldn't possibly compete at the WWE level ... and then Bryan would make the guy tap out. You don't have to hand someone a mic to tell a story. He did it with his actions, and yes, that was intended. If WWE wanted Bryan buried he would have been jobbing to people on Superstars. He'd be headlining an indy card somewhere now after quitting out of frustration. But to the point of the thread: Define "fans." If by "fans" you mean people who go on message boards and say "I don't even watch WWE, haven't in years" and tell you how bad WWE is, if you mean people who don't go to live shows and watch PPVs on illegal live streams -- I'd say, yes, WWE does probably resent them. Or at least doesn't care what they think. If by "fans" you mean people who watch the TV shows, buy merch, patronize the website, purchase PPVs -- then I'd say, no, WWE doesn't resent them. I read all the time on here how there is no hivemind, there is no IWC -- and I agree -- yet for the purposes of a "WWE gets it all wrong" discussion it seems that whatever wrestler is popular on internet message boards is universally beloved by all fans, who do think alike. Let's look at Wrestlemania 28: when Cena vs. Rock was announced the reactions on this board ran from "meh" to "oh God no, please not that" to "if it's the main event over CM Punk then I am done with WWE." For everyone who said they liked the idea there was a chorus of cynics who said it was dumb, stupid, they didn't like it and predicted it would be a disaster. And the other match that drove that show (by how much it was built up on TV and advertising, etc.) was HHH vs. Undertaker ... which REALLY drew negative reactions on the forums. The "fans" spoke, and gave WM28 a big thumbs down. But the other "fans" made it the highest-grossing wrestling PPV ever. Ever. So they apparently got something they liked and wanted. It is now canon that CM Punk delivered the pipe bomb promo and the WWE fan base rose up as one and said, "FINALLY, someone told it like it is. He said what we are all thinking." One of his points was that Dwayne Johnson didn't belong in the WM main event. Apparently not everyone agreed, as they bought the PPV. It was a success. And go back and watch the pipe bomb promo sometime and see the crowd's reaction ... there are some cheers, but more boos, and a lot more silence. He said the fans who buy the collector cups and such are the ones who are keeping WWE down. I think WWE, with some good reason, believes that they are the ones who should be listened to more than the ones who never spend a dime on the product and probably wouldn't if the company did every single thing they say they want WWE to do.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Nov 27, 2013 17:06:23 GMT -5
Not giving Bryan a proper title run at Summerslam was the single biggest mistake this company made this year. This whole evil authority angle could have been brewing for a few weeks and have culminated with the Orton/HHH heel turn at a later PPV like HIAC or Survivor Series. I said this in the Cena/Bryan thread that's gone 7 pages, but imagine if the night after Wrestlemania 14 Vince McMahon screwed Austin out of the title. It wouldn't make any sense. It took McMahon SIX months before he really got the upper hand over Austin, but in the meantime he threw obstacles in Austin's way (Dude Love, Kane, the Undertaker, the Stooges) so that Austin's momentum would be hindered. That's what made WWF TV in 1998 compelling: who would get the upper hand this week? How will McMahon or Austin respond next week? I so have to tune in to find out! This is why Bryan fans are annoyed: he didn't get a chance to build momentum as the champion! Yeah, he's a two-time WWE champion for a total of, what, 36 hours? And yet you read from other people that Bryan fans should count their stars that their guy was lucky enough to sniff the title that long. And then WWE booked a bunch of shows that left Bryan looking like a chump laying on the mat, who only got some comeuppance with the help of the midcard guys. And now he's feuding with the Wyatt Family so that his upper midcard/lower main event credibility will run off on them. Imagine if Steve Austin in 1998 was booked to put the Nation over strong in a series of matches after he was screwed by McMahon. It wouldn't make any sense. But this is what WWE is doing now. Why? Because the people who book WWE TV like to think they can make their own reality. For instance, Zack Ryder gets over with the internet crowd. The internet crowd makes noise at WWE shows. Other fans join in. Zack Ryder gets public support from guys like John Cena and the Rock. Was Ryder the most exciting talent at the time? Not necessarily, but he did have an underdog aura to him, like Rudy wanting to play football. That's all Ryder wanted, a shot at the big time. And despite the fact that he's not the greatest talker and flashiest wrestler, he had fan support. Accentuate the positives, hide the negatives. But what did WWE do? They booked Ryder to the Brutus Beefcake to Cena's Hogan, having Ryder get his ass kicked repeatedly by Kane. Did Ryder ever get any comeuppance? Well, if you count that throwaway battle royale match on Smackdown for the Guest GM spot that one time when he eliminated Kane to win the match. But that was like 6-8 months after all the bullshit with Kane happened. Then, to top it off, Ryder was made to look like a chump by Eve Torres. Did Ryder pair up with a Diva so that she would get her comeuppance? Nope, he took that kick to the balls in stride. In this case, Ryder was booked like a loser and after he fizzled out, WWE believed it was right for not pushing him in the first place. WWE set up the conditions to prove their own idea of who should be pushed right. It'd be like if you cut the arms and legs off of Ryder, saddled him with an anvil, left him out at sea in shark-infested waters without a life preserver, and then said "you better swim to shore, buddy!" WWE in this case purposefully handicapped the guy and then expected him to get over with those handicaps. Accentuate the negatives, hide the positives. Stephanie McMahon is Paul Heyman upside down. The same thing happened with Punk. Boy, it's a real shocker that when you give John Cena and AJ Lee a lot of focus on television at the expense of the WWE champion that maybe the champion won't be able to draw in ratings or PPV buyrates like you had hoped. Gee, I wonder why. And it's going to be the same thing with Bryan. Hell, didn't WWE announce that the Summerslam buyrate was lower than they had expected? Obviously it's Bryan's fault. It can't be Cena's fault whatsoever. It can't be the petty worked shoot promo bullshit they had on TV to promote the match. Nope, it's all indie vanilla midget goatboy's fault, obviously. Vince McMahon makes his own reality, hell, his own 'universe'. We should just be good, thankful little fans and be grateful that we get to see any 'sports entertainment' at all because of him. *rolls eyes*
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