mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jun 22, 2014 14:12:31 GMT -5
Captain America comparison doesn't really work at all though, given the tragedy that character has been through, the times he's relinquished the role etc. Cap is way less static than they make Cena. That said, Cena the real guy, again, is a good dude. I didn't exactly put my original post in the context I'd intended, so I guess I should explain myself... Cena, the character, definitely needs some freshening up. They do that for the Captain America character, Superman, Batman, Wolverine, all the time. To tie into my original post, Cap's been shot, he's been disowned, he's been Nomad, he's been the Director of SHIELD, etc. and so on and so forth. But he's never, ever, EVER turned his back on being a "good guy". By that same token, I think a heel turn for Cena would be the same. What I DO want for the character, though, is more vulnerability. That's what makes the good Captain a great character. He's legit been through some real trials and tribulations. He doesn't always get away clean in victory. But that's what makes him great - he doesn't change who he is even though he doesn't always come across like an invincible badass. That's what Cena needs - less Mary Sue with a little more drama in his booking. As a fourteen time former champ he's had to lose that tile 14 times. He's not even the longest reigning WWE champ. He's been injured, he'd had to forfeit. He's shown vulnerability. And even though we frequently compare wrestlers to superheroes it's not the best comparison because comics are written. I imagine they'd seem a lot less vulnerable minus though bubbles and captions boxes and private character monologues. We don't get the same chance to get into wrestler's heads.
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Eunös ✈
Dalek
Duck Feet Expert
Tolerated, just not practically liked.
Posts: 59,238
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Post by Eunös ✈ on Jun 22, 2014 14:14:37 GMT -5
I'm at that point now where I wish Cena the wrestler would just go away now, But as a human I can't fault him at all
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Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
Thank you, Ishmeal Loves Bayley!
Posts: 6,421
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Post by Abdullah on Jun 22, 2014 14:33:51 GMT -5
Genuine question here, not intended to incite anyone in any way - does anyone expect that Bryan will get to a point where he's too much of a hero to turn heel?
What I mean by that is, as much as it is valid to keep Cena as he is because it's best for business, it's also a convenient excuse. AJ Lee did a Make A Wish and her character is an awful heel. Speaking for me personally and my situation, Primo is an inspiration and his on-screen persona is non-existent. I realize John has the widest reach of most guys but there is really no convincing reason for Cena's character not to improve. Heel turn not needed. Just an improvement.
I highly doubt that would alienate anyone.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Jun 22, 2014 14:34:47 GMT -5
Genuine question here, not intended to incite anyone in any way - does anyone expect that Bryan will get to a point where he's too much of a hero to turn heel? I hope so.
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Post by angryfan on Jun 22, 2014 14:47:53 GMT -5
I didn't exactly put my original post in the context I'd intended, so I guess I should explain myself... Cena, the character, definitely needs some freshening up. They do that for the Captain America character, Superman, Batman, Wolverine, all the time. To tie into my original post, Cap's been shot, he's been disowned, he's been Nomad, he's been the Director of SHIELD, etc. and so on and so forth. But he's never, ever, EVER turned his back on being a "good guy". By that same token, I think a heel turn for Cena would be the same. What I DO want for the character, though, is more vulnerability. That's what makes the good Captain a great character. He's legit been through some real trials and tribulations. He doesn't always get away clean in victory. But that's what makes him great - he doesn't change who he is even though he doesn't always come across like an invincible badass. That's what Cena needs - less Mary Sue with a little more drama in his booking. As a fourteen time former champ he's had to lose that tile 14 times. He's not even the longest reigning WWE champ. He's been injured, he'd had to forfeit. He's shown vulnerability. And even though we frequently compare wrestlers to superheroes it's not the best comparison because comics are written. I imagine they'd seem a lot less vulnerable minus though bubbles and captions boxes and private character monologues. We don't get the same chance to get into wrestler's heads. Agreed that comic book characters and live action characters, while they may appeal to the same populous, are different animals. Regarding vulnerability though, I look at it differently. Vulnerability isn't "you lose a title, then win it back, then lose it again". By that standard, in any sport wherein a championship exists, the dynasty team that wins 4 out of five years should be seen as an underdog or something less than a juggernaut because they didn't win it one year. I see vulnerability in the realm of a character as an emotional of physical state, not the presence or lack of a Macguffin. In this case, the title belts are just that, Macguffins or plot devices to give the character a goal. Thus, the title runs, and lack of title runs, can be seen as one and the same for the Cena character in his world view and his overall true plot and narrative driven goal. His Macguffin is making "his audience" (and that is a specific distinction that his character and the narrators/commentators have made) happy. THAT is the Macguffin, the all important object of his desire and personal quest. A title belt signifies triumph, temporarily, in his goal. A lack of a title belt indicates the quest for that goal. Compare this to Ric Flair or Triple H, who have made their quest something more akin to a sports championship. The Macguffin was the belt and the belt was the Macguffin. Having it was the goal, and thus achievement. Not having it was a rason or purpose to compete. Vulnerability can still be had, even though the overall goal is less tangible. A belt or other physical prop is a tangible goal. Vulnerability can be had when the tangible is not being reached or when one is being prevented or tormented by the lack of said physical goal. The idea of "They may not make it" becomes the question, and it can be played out through the character's struggle. A less tangible, or outright emotionally driven, goal such as "happiness" is subjective. With Cena's MacGuffin being "make fans happy" it can either be his mere presence achieves the goal (as his real life self sees with each wish granted. His fans do not need him to win, the just need him to be present) or it can be the more abstract (and what I believe to be WWE's belief) "if he doesn't win, people will not be happy". THIS is the distinction, and this is where vulnerability in a fictional character is so important. The real man, just by being, just by showing up, taking time, and being more than some cartoon on a Monday night, gives hope because he tells these kids, he reinforces, that THEY matter, and that they are cared about. It has absolutely f*** all with wrestling or sports entertainment or t-shirts. His fictional self, the superhero boyscout who battles evil cultists and pseudo-demons, can still show vulnerability and it can be an even more beautiful message if done with the heart we know the man has in him. Cena faces monster du jour, and instead of jokes or super srs voice, we see a man who is concerned (think the Wyatt choir moment only for more than a segment). He goes so far as to even take some beat downs from said monster, he does an actual sit down with Cole where, instead of preacher voice or Johnny the Clown, we get a man saying that he is worried, that this task is big, it is not just a flash in the pan. He gives his "do my best" speech, but never, not once, does he make a joke. Not once does he go into "rally the troops" voice. The arc progresses, the character even has a few setbacks. He loses a match, and he does another interview. He then does an interview where he notes that he can't do this alone. He speaks to his fans, not as the cartoon but as a guy saying "I'm in a rough spot, and I need you, I need you with me now". (maybe sit down and talk to Dusty beforehand to get just a bit of what The Dream had on the mic) Of course the outcome is Cena wins, but if you allow for the fanbase to take that journey, as the old timers call it, to rise the emotional roller coaster, and you treat it like it f***ing matters, then it can be amazing. To bring this back, Cena is big on the message to the kids, sick or otherwise, and think of the message that would send You may get knocked down, you may not always win, and sometimes you may lose badly, but you can keep pushing and you can make it, because you're not alone. Sappy still, and no it wouldn't be for everyone, but it accomplishes vulnerability in a character and allows the man behind the character to send an even more powerful real life message to the part of his fanbase that need the positivity the most.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 15:24:44 GMT -5
Genuine question here, not intended to incite anyone in any way - does anyone expect that Bryan will get to a point where he's too much of a hero to turn heel? I think it is possible he will be so over with fans that he'd be cheered no matter who he is against like Punk was but I don't think he'd get as stale as Cena has because his size, in WWE's eyes, mean he is a real underdog so he will be booked like they tell us Cena is but never actually happens. Bryan will always lose more big matches than Cena in WWE and that makes him less predictable. Put Cena in Bryan's place and the WM30 build is obvious but with Bryan, it felt so 50/50 that it felt real again.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jun 23, 2014 7:26:19 GMT -5
You know what, f*** storyline quality, f*** his onscreen character, f*** everything else - as long as Cena is doing things like this for the people that need a little more happiness in their life, I never want to see Cena turn heel.
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Mista T
Unicron
THAT'S HARDCORE!!!1
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Post by Mista T on Jun 23, 2014 8:41:35 GMT -5
Touching, thanks for posting!
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Essential1
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Essential1 on Jun 23, 2014 8:55:10 GMT -5
As much as his on screen persona bothers me I must say I think the real life Cena is a true hero to these kids and more like "Hulk Hogan" than Hogan ever was.
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