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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jul 8, 2016 10:31:19 GMT -5
Came in here to post this interview. Interesting to see that George Takei apparently told them multiple times not to do it. I mean I'm not really for or against the change personally, I'd have been fine either way. But is it really honoring him (which was the stated purpose of them doing it) if the man himself was against the change?
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Post by Cyno on Jul 8, 2016 10:31:34 GMT -5
I was originally pretty happy about this, but hearing it went against Takei's wishes really soured it for me.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jul 8, 2016 10:35:11 GMT -5
I was originally pretty happy about this, but hearing it went against Takei's wishes really soured it for me. Yeah, I thought it was a nice nod to Takei when I first heard about it... but if he was really pushing against it just doesn't seem right.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jul 8, 2016 15:02:12 GMT -5
Simon Pegg responds: "We could have introduced a new gay character, but he or she would have been primarily defined by their sexuality, seen as the ‘gay character’, rather than simply for who they are, and isn’t that tokenism? Justin Lin, Doug Jung and I loved the idea of it being someone we already knew because the audience have a pre-existing opinion of that character as a human being, unaffected by any prejudice. Their sexual orientation is just one of many personal aspects, not the defining characteristic." www.theguardian.com/film/2016/jul/08/simon-pegg-defends-gay-sulu-after-george-takei-criticism
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Jul 8, 2016 15:43:25 GMT -5
Simon Pegg responds: "We could have introduced a new gay character, but he or she would have been primarily defined by their sexuality, seen as the ‘gay character’, rather than simply for who they are, and isn’t that tokenism? Justin Lin, Doug Jung and I loved the idea of it being someone we already knew because the audience have a pre-existing opinion of that character as a human being, unaffected by any prejudice. Their sexual orientation is just one of many personal aspects, not the defining characteristic." www.theguardian.com/film/2016/jul/08/simon-pegg-defends-gay-sulu-after-george-takei-criticismWell now Sulu is going to be seen as the token "gay character." It also insultingly suggests that because history is changed so is Sulu's sexuality. Hopefully they handle it the same was race was handled in TOS - by not really talking about it at all. Sulu casually has a boyfriend, and nothing is made of it. Probably would be better to do with a different character, but if you have to do it that's the way to do it. Just like the gay characters in Mass Effect.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jul 8, 2016 15:49:10 GMT -5
Simon Pegg responds: "We could have introduced a new gay character, but he or she would have been primarily defined by their sexuality, seen as the ‘gay character’, rather than simply for who they are, and isn’t that tokenism? Justin Lin, Doug Jung and I loved the idea of it being someone we already knew because the audience have a pre-existing opinion of that character as a human being, unaffected by any prejudice. Their sexual orientation is just one of many personal aspects, not the defining characteristic." www.theguardian.com/film/2016/jul/08/simon-pegg-defends-gay-sulu-after-george-takei-criticismWell now Sulu is going to be seen as the token "gay character." It also insultingly suggests that because history is changed so is Sulu's sexuality. Hopefully they handle it the same was race was handled in TOS - by not really talking about it at all. Sulu casually has a boyfriend, and nothing is made of it. Probably would be better to do with a different character, but if you have to do it that's the way to do it. Just like the gay characters in Mass Effect. I dunno, I mean, a character being made to be the gay one would stick out as "The Gay One" whereas this is more "Oh, Sulu's gay" gives him more character. As for the timeline thing, yeah they've said they don't care. How it's handled all I've heard is you see him and his partner and their kid, so it's just there, not a big thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 15:55:10 GMT -5
I knew Takei had said before he didn't want to do that with it so yeah, not hugely pleased with this particular move. And if it really were, "We wanted to use an established character, not a new one, so people wouldn't call it a token!" it wouldn't just so happen to be the one famously played by a gay actor. Chekov's about as flimsy on the characterization front as Sulu, why not him?
I mean, it doesn't bug me that much honestly, but still inclined to think it wasn't the right move to make.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jul 8, 2016 15:59:27 GMT -5
Hopefully they handle it the same was race was handled in TOS - by not really talking about it at all. Sulu casually has a boyfriend, and nothing is made of it. Probably would be better to do with a different character, but if you have to do it that's the way to do it. Just like the gay characters in Mass Effect. From what I've read so far, it's not talked about at all. Something along the lines of a brief scene of Sulu saying goodbye to his husband and daughter as he leaves for the mission, and that's it.
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Jul 8, 2016 18:41:10 GMT -5
I kinda though they had been dropping subtle hints that Sulu was gay for fifty years, not sure why Takei is complaining about it now.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jul 9, 2016 0:29:59 GMT -5
I love Star Trek, but I'm so uninterested in this movie I didn't even know a second trailer had even come out. Definitely looked better then the last trailer, but I'm still very meh on this whole flick. I clinging to the hope that the new show does a much better job of capturing the spirit of Star Trek.
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Post by Cyno on Jul 9, 2016 1:30:20 GMT -5
I kinda though they had been dropping subtle hints that Sulu was gay for fifty years, not sure why Takei is complaining about it now. To be fair, I really don't remember Sulu's sexuality coming up at all during TOS or any of the movies. Maybe in "The Naked Time" but it's been ages since I've watched that episode and the only thing I remember about his part in that episode is him fencing shirtless. Yeah, he has a daughter in Generations, but gay men are able to have biological children with today's science, so that certainly isn't an indicator of anything. But again, my problem with this is more to do with them not respecting Takei's wishes in not wanting them to turn Sulu into a tribute to him. Pegg's and Lin's heart is in the right place, but they're being disrespectful to Takei while claiming they're "honoring" him.
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jul 9, 2016 1:47:04 GMT -5
I kinda though they had been dropping subtle hints that Sulu was gay for fifty years, not sure why Takei is complaining about it now. To be fair, I really don't remember Sulu's sexuality coming up at all during TOS or any of the movies. Maybe in "The Naked Time" but it's been ages since I've watched that episode and the only thing I remember about his part in that episode is him fencing shirtless. Yeah, he has a daughter in Generations, but gay men are able to have biological children with today's science, so that certainly isn't an indicator of anything. But again, my problem with this is more to do with them not respecting Takei's wishes in not wanting them to turn Sulu into a tribute to him. Pegg's and Lin's heart is in the right place, but they're being disrespectful to Takei while claiming they're "honoring" him. He was in a few group shots where everyone's drooling over women, and Mirror Sulu hits on Uhura, but yeah, not a big thing. It's more the personal reaction. I'm not sure on the timeline, did they tell him while they were writing, or is he only finding out now? If it's the latter that's more understandable, them thinking "This would be cool to do", if they told him, he said stop and they carried on, that's a whole different thing.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jul 9, 2016 2:31:38 GMT -5
Zachary Quinto has joined the debate, in the most Seth Rollins/Bret Hart way possible: "I am disappointed by the fact that George was disappointed." www.avclub.com/article/simon-pegg-and-zachary-quinto-respond-george-takei-239288I kinda though they had been dropping subtle hints that Sulu was gay for fifty years, not sure why Takei is complaining about it now. To be fair, I really don't remember Sulu's sexuality coming up at all during TOS or any of the movies. Maybe in "The Naked Time" but it's been ages since I've watched that episode and the only thing I remember about his part in that episode is him fencing shirtless. Sulu was pretty much a blank slate throughout TOS and the movies in that regard. I have to think Pegg and co.'s logic was if they were going to make a character gay, might as well be the one that's synonymous with a gay icon and just say it's a tribute. For what it's worth, Sulu has been gay in my head canon for at least a decade now. It's sort of a similar thing to how you never really knew where Shatner ended and Kirk began, I've found myself seeing more and more of the real Takei in Sulu. Hell, I lean towards the only reason Sulu finally got command of his own ship was because Starfleet didn't want him pulled up on charges of killing Kirk.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 9, 2016 11:09:54 GMT -5
I don't normally like Rihanna (except for "Umbrella"), but I think this is a pretty good song and video for the new movie.
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Post by Cyno on Jul 9, 2016 11:16:22 GMT -5
Rihanna is also a massive Trekkie. She talked about how she grew up with the show since her dad was one, a story I can definitely relate to.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jul 9, 2016 11:41:19 GMT -5
To be fair, I really don't remember Sulu's sexuality coming up at all during TOS or any of the movies. Maybe in "The Naked Time" but it's been ages since I've watched that episode and the only thing I remember about his part in that episode is him fencing shirtless. Yeah, he has a daughter in Generations, but gay men are able to have biological children with today's science, so that certainly isn't an indicator of anything. But again, my problem with this is more to do with them not respecting Takei's wishes in not wanting them to turn Sulu into a tribute to him. Pegg's and Lin's heart is in the right place, but they're being disrespectful to Takei while claiming they're "honoring" him. He was in a few group shots where everyone's drooling over women, and Mirror Sulu hits on Uhura, but yeah, not a big thing. It's more the personal reaction. I'm not sure on the timeline, did they tell him while they were writing, or is he only finding out now? If it's the latter that's more understandable, them thinking "This would be cool to do", if they told him, he said stop and they carried on, that's a whole different thing. The interview with Takei said it was during writing and on multiple occasions, and again it sounds like it's one scene they could have easily cut, dropped or changed the character in the scene pretty easily. For what it's worth, Sulu has been gay in my head canon for at least a decade now. It's sort of a similar thing to how you never really knew where Shatner ended and Kirk began, I've found myself seeing more and more of the real Takei in Sulu. Hell, I lean towards the only reason Sulu finally got command of his own ship was because Starfleet didn't want him pulled up on charges of killing Kirk. Rodenberry (and Takei himself) did put a lot of the actor into the Sulu character, Sulu's hobbies are hobbies Takei enjoyed for instance and when giving Sulu a first name they got Roddenberry AND Takei's approval first as well. Though as I said I am of the opinion if they asked him and the man himself didn't want the character to be gay they should have honored his wishes.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 9, 2016 11:51:43 GMT -5
It does feel like they went: "Well Takei is really gay, so we'll make Sulu gay." It's like what they're trying to do is admirable, but kinda tone deaf and unintentionally pandering a bit as well.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 9, 2016 12:26:19 GMT -5
I remember Takei saying years ago when he first came out that it annoyed him that people assumed just because he was gay it meant the character he's best known for must've been gay too. taking that into account, it is kind of insensitive of them to go forward with it after he said that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2016 19:08:00 GMT -5
To steer the subject away from the Takei thing a bit... Honestly really dunno what to expect with this movie. Doesn't look or sound bad necessarily, but what information is out about it sounds pretty lifeless and flat. Just looks really bland all around. Though early word of mouth on it's pretty good.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Jul 13, 2016 19:18:36 GMT -5
To steer the subject away from the Takei thing a bit... Honestly really dunno what to expect with this movie. Doesn't look or sound bad necessarily, but what information is out about it sounds pretty lifeless and flat. Just looks really bland all around. Though early word of mouth on it's pretty good. I can't really gather too much about the plot either, although it does sound reminiscent of Eddington's condemnation of the Federation. I wish DS9 had done more with that point of view, it was rather interesting.
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