Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 13:53:23 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels was the top babyface of the company playing the role of a flaminf stripper who once showed his pube line for a big babyface pop when homophobia was strong and accepted in the mid 90's. Granted HBK might of been the greatest in ring wrestler ever and charismatic as f*** but still anything is possible really.
|
|
Pushed to the Moon
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Tony Schiavone in Disguise
Working myself into a shoot
Posts: 15,819 
|
Post by Pushed to the Moon on Jan 15, 2016 13:59:27 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels was the top babyface of the company playing the role of a flaminf stripper who once showed his pube line for a big babyface pop when homophobia was strong and accepted in the mid 90's. Granted HBK might of been the greatest in ring wrestler ever and charismatic as f*** but still anything is possible really. Well yeah but we're looking for reasons why Vince WOULDN'T want to push someone... |
|
Andy Martin
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,815
Member is Online
|
Post by Andy Martin on Jan 15, 2016 14:03:56 GMT -5
I should have become a wrestling journalist. 'Triple H wanted to push _ but Vince didn't want to.' Watch the fans squabble and collect that cash. You can't be any worse than Front Row Brian. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 14:11:10 GMT -5
Honestly I don't think Breeze will ever become a permanent main event guy even if HHH was 100% booking the WWE. I could see him as a midcarder or upper midcarder at most who would only main event matches like the elimination chamber or fatal four ways and such. Or get a one on one title shot on a B PPV when the title match isn't the main event.
But I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a main eventer but really who cares. Wrestling is unpredictable of who is going to make it far. The only real safe bets of guys who can make it big in the WWE are the guys who reached Indie/International God Levels like CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Dean Ambrose, Kevin Owens for they are the closest comparison to a generational talent being picked first overall like Sidney Crosby/Peyton Manning/LeBron James. And even then there are few Ryan Leafs in that class like Sin Cara and Chris Hero.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Jan 15, 2016 14:16:37 GMT -5
This is the fundamental problem in WWE
You can build the best developmental system imaginable.
But if success and failure depends on an old man who says "get rid of those sideburns!" it's all for nothing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Alice Syndrome on Jan 15, 2016 14:53:50 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Alice Syndrome on Jan 15, 2016 14:56:33 GMT -5
You know, everyone arm chair books and thinks they know better than Vince McMahon. Step back and look at what Vince has achieved with WWE. The guy can spot talent and make it grow, as well as greatly punish and de-push to make someone work harder. What's he achieved lately besides driving away millions of viewers in a ten year period?
Finding corners to cut to keep the stockholders happy so that he can put on a masturbatory show full of things that excite him before anyone else?
That's great.
Imagine what Vince would achieve if he put the customer before himself.
If any alternative except TNA had WWE's budget, Vince would be flipping burgers by 2008 |
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jan 15, 2016 15:01:38 GMT -5
What's he achieved lately besides driving away millions of viewers in a ten year period?
Finding corners to cut to keep the stockholders happy so that he can put on a masturbatory show full of things that excite him before anyone else?
That's great.
Imagine what Vince would achieve if he put the customer before himself.
If any alternative except TNA had WWE's budget, Vince would be flipping burgers by 2008 TNA's parent company Panda Energy is worth more than the WWE and pretty much let Dixie did whatever she wanted up until the final years on Spike... so no just having money didn't help them. |
|
Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,594
|
Post by Dr. T is an alien on Jan 15, 2016 15:55:51 GMT -5
If any alternative except TNA had WWE's budget, Vince would be flipping burgers by 2008 TNA's parent company Panda Energy is worth more than the WWE and pretty much let Dixie did whatever she wanted up until the final years on Spike... so no just having money didn't help them. His point was that if someone competent had a budget like that they would have taken a huge share of the WWE's audience from them. |
|
trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,623
|
Post by trollrogue on Jan 15, 2016 16:23:56 GMT -5
TNA's parent company Panda Energy is worth more than the WWE and pretty much let Dixie did whatever she wanted up until the final years on Spike... so no just having money didn't help them. His point was that if someone competent had a budget like that they would have taken a huge share of the WWE's audience from them. Yeah but the second point (that seemingly bears repeating) is that if it were so easy to be better than WWE's product any idiot would be able to do it. Turner couldn't. TNA couldn't. Let's not downplay the success of McMahon here-- it takes actual good ideas and knowing what you're doing for him to stand alone as an industry leader today. A lot of the ideas in this thread are good, but at the end of the day it's easier said than implemented. NXT works but not nearly on as grand a stage as the greater WWE brand. |
|
|
|
Post by sonofblaine on Jan 15, 2016 16:28:54 GMT -5
I can't wait to see the "Backstage news on Bayley's main roster push" thread four months from now. Vince: What's wrong with her face? Now that Eva Marie, she's a looker. |
|
|
|
Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jan 15, 2016 17:26:30 GMT -5
As an aside, I hate when guys wear tassels or the like on their boots.
|
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jan 15, 2016 17:32:06 GMT -5
TNA's parent company Panda Energy is worth more than the WWE and pretty much let Dixie did whatever she wanted up until the final years on Spike... so no just having money didn't help them. His point was that if someone competent had a budget like that they would have taken a huge share of the WWE's audience from them. I misread what was said... I blame the fact that I was at work at the time... but the point that just having money isn't enough to challenge the WWE still stands. |
|
|
|
Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 15, 2016 17:40:53 GMT -5
I know Ric said this before but where did people say Tyler Breeze should have been a main eventer?
And what is so bad with being an IC/US title level guy? One of WWE's biggest problems is that they literally don't have anyone at that level and the gap between main eventer to lower midcarder is the largest it has ever been. It was the position Breeze was made for. If he got higher than that, great!
|
|
|
|
Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Jan 15, 2016 18:01:08 GMT -5
I know Ric said this before but where did people say Tyler Breeze should have been a main eventer? And what is so bad with being an IC/US title level guy? One of WWE's biggest problems is that they literally don't have anyone at that level and the gap between main eventer to lower midcarder is the largest it has ever been. It was the position Breeze was made for. If he got higher than that, great! Same reason mentioned. It's an attempt to shift attention off the serious problem that is Vince McMahon because hardcore baseless defense of him is a fun gimmick or something. Dismissing Breeze because "he'll only ever be a midcard act" is an easy way to sideswipe the conversation. |
|
Jeff Mangum PI
Hank Scorpio
11 herbs and spices for the rest of eternity; Is Number Two. Number Two!
The 2nd Coming
Posts: 6,957
|
Post by Jeff Mangum PI on Jan 15, 2016 18:13:58 GMT -5
You can have "mid-carder" as your ceiling and still be booked well.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 18:29:46 GMT -5
Zigggler's a midcarder and yet he's won multiple titles and he still hasn't reached that ceiling. Little to people know, Ziggler has a Hall of Fame career. For all the crap he gets from people if you compare his career to others of the past, he's done damn well without ever winning the WWE Championship. Ziggler's career should be the example for anyone who's a midcarder who's gotten some chances and yet doesn't need to be a main eventer. He's a solid hand where you need him. Hell, Kofi as well. Ziggler and Kofi both define this.
The problem is that Breeze didn't even get that according to these reports. It's not about where he'd be and what his potential is, it's about giving the guy a chance.
|
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Jan 16, 2016 22:32:14 GMT -5
The dual problems here are that WWE has spent the past 10+ years cultivating an air of "you're either a main eventer or you're a loser" mentality (I exaggerate slightly for effect), and WWE has also gotten away from a proper strategy for how to debut new talent AND maintain their momentum after they've debuted.
The first issue has been discussed ad nauseam; the middle of the card is shrinking, and crowds are getting trained by the booking to not take somebody seriously if he hasn't held a world title of some kind. This leads to more guys winning the big belt, sure, but the reigns become increasingly meaningless; meanwhile, the much larger number of guys who don't wind up winning the belt become afterthoughts - it's like an unhealthy economy, where you can have a small amount of more people making tons of money, but the vast majority sinking lower rather than maintaining a steady middle ground.
The second issue is one that I think needs more inspection, though. Going back to Vince's first days as a national promoter, he had an enormous pool of talent to draw from. His NYC dollars meant that he could bring in champions from all different territories before eventually buying those territories out, ranging from the Rougeaus in Quebec down to JYD, Roberts, and DiBiase down south, to Heenan, Hennig and Rude in the Midwest, to the Harts in Calgary, to major traveling acts like Piper and Andre. He wouldn't spend the money for those guys if he didn't have a plan for using them, so he could basically play mix-and-match with all that talent and let them do what they do. He just had to hype their debuts, feed them jobbers on free TV, and let them cut traditional promos to bring the people in for house shows and PPVs, and dangle the promise of Hogan as the main event draw. I'm not trying to say Vince didn't do anything here, far from it, but the core of his success was spending enough to bring in guys who were already highly experienced and knowledgable about how to draw and elicit crowd reactions. Hell, as much as people crap on Dusty Rhodes' WWF run, he was still brought in, hyped, got to talk, and then got launched immediately into feuds with Boss Man, Macho, and DiBiase. There was a plan.
Today, with the lack of territories to "breed" top champions and knowledgable vets, the WWE has turned to making their own developmental brand, trying to nurture wrestlers from cradle to grave, so to speak. The problem now, though, is that Vince doesn't necessarily trust these guys to come up and know how to make money, and with all the air time the company has and the lack of jobbers to get guys over, too many guys come up to Raw and have no direction whatsoever, no plan to get them over and KEEP them over.
This is a major failure: you should never debut new talent unless you have a clear vision of what you want that talent to do and how you want to utilize them. Not everybody has to come up and immediately be a star: NJPW has their Young Lions job plenty as they start out, ROH might bring in a relative unknown talent to work as enhancement talent for bigger stars, etc., with the plan that they'll slowly but surely ingratiate themselves to the audience. It's fine, you know who these guys are and what they're being used for. But if you want to bring a guy up with the intention of getting them over quickly, then you need a real plan; you can't pull a Bo Dallas or Neville and just bring guys up for seemingly no reason and say "LIKE THIS GUY!", all the while not giving them any direction beyond "I want to be a champion, some time, maybe, eventually!"
Breeze nearly avoided that; bringing him up and immediately putting him with Ziggler could've given him an immediate hook with the crowd, since it not only gives him a feud and a platform to show off his gimmick, more importantly it gives him a purpose, which is frankly what wrestlers need more than anything else. But it was never clearly defined why he'd want to go after Ziggler, and thus it became easy to just write him off and toss it all away.
This can't happen; in an era where you're going to often call guys up from developmental, you can't rely on "this guy was in NXT, now he's here!" as a reason for the crowd to care about them. If you call up Breeze and pair him with Ziggler, then give us a reason why he wants so badly to fight Ziggler. If you're going to call up Bo Dallas, don't just have him co "Bo-lieve!" promos without a purpose, make it part of a pre-planned angle. And yeah, just maybe jobbers and enhancement talent are needed now to let these guys come up, generate heat, and stay over as they get into their first main roster feuds.
The whole idea that Breeze should be main eventing is silly; not everybody can main event, not everybody should main event. But you can make your midcard meaningful if you bring guys in with a purpose, and not just trot them out and say "you should like/hate this guy for some reason!"
|
|
|
|
Post by xCompackx on Jan 16, 2016 23:05:56 GMT -5
Zigggler's a midcarder and yet he's won multiple titles and he still hasn't reached that ceiling. Little to people know, Ziggler has a Hall of Fame career. For all the crap he gets from people if you compare his career to others of the past, he's done damn well without ever winning the WWE Championship. Ziggler's career should be the example for anyone who's a midcarder who's gotten some chances and yet doesn't need to be a main eventer. He's a solid hand where you need him. Hell, Kofi as well. Ziggler and Kofi both define this. The problem is that Breeze didn't even get that according to these reports. It's not about where he'd be and what his potential is, it's about giving the guy a chance. Dolph Ziggler is kind of a visual representation for what's wrong with WWE, though; he's done so much, yet he's still treated like he doesn't matter. Even when they make him part of big angles (Sting debuting to help Dolph win a match is pretty damn big), it's only a couple of weeks until he's right back in the same spot like nothing happened. They're constantly doing this with talent. Kofi's a multi-time IC Champion, tag-team champion, and it took New Day for his career to move forward. Kalisto's already a 1-time US Champion and he (technically) lost it the next night. It's crazy how spastic the booking is when they throw championship reigns onto guys like it supplants proper storytelling. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2016 23:26:36 GMT -5
Zigggler's a midcarder and yet he's won multiple titles and he still hasn't reached that ceiling. Little to people know, Ziggler has a Hall of Fame career. For all the crap he gets from people if you compare his career to others of the past, he's done damn well without ever winning the WWE Championship. Ziggler's career should be the example for anyone who's a midcarder who's gotten some chances and yet doesn't need to be a main eventer. He's a solid hand where you need him. Hell, Kofi as well. Ziggler and Kofi both define this. The problem is that Breeze didn't even get that according to these reports. It's not about where he'd be and what his potential is, it's about giving the guy a chance. Dolph Ziggler is kind of a visual representation for what's wrong with WWE, though; he's done so much, yet he's still treated like he doesn't matter. Even when they make him part of big angles (Sting debuting to help Dolph win a match is pretty damn big), it's only a couple of weeks until he's right back in the same spot like nothing happened. They're constantly doing this with talent. Kofi's a multi-time IC Champion, tag-team champion, and it took New Day for his career to move forward. Kalisto's already a 1-time US Champion and he (technically) lost it the next night. It's crazy how spastic the booking is when they throw championship reigns onto guys like it supplants proper storytelling. Indeed I agree, it works both days. If Ziggler and Kofi were around in the Attitude Era and early 2000s they'd already have been WWE Champion each multiple times with their accomplishments. |
|
