Anyone else angry about this?

[ben:friendship frog]

I'm not craving any intergender matches, but as a male 'survivor' of domestic abuse in the past (I'm not gonna get into it), it does annoy me how the public perception is: man hits woman=evil but woman hits man=empowering or hilarious.
That's all I'm gonna say on it. It's a complicated issue and I'm glad it's not my decision to make.

[StuntGranny®]

I don't need to see, nor do I WANT to see a wrestler slap a woman. It makes me uncomfortable and I feel gross after watching it. There's a tag match featuring Asuka (Kana at the time) getting the holy hell beaten out of her by Minoru Suzuki. "Fake" or not, things like that just makes me uneasy.

Also, the OP mentioned something about going back to the Attitude Era. If you take off the nostalgia glasses, the Attitude Era is pretty embarrassing. Let's not go back to that. Ever.

[Starshine]

I'm personally against inter-gender pro wrestling as a rule. It mainly stems from a personal experience I had helping an ex deal with a physically and emotionally abusive relationship about two years ago. I don't go around telling people who enjoy them that they're wrong so it always steams me when others who like it allude that if you disagree with them then you're regressive, or sexist, or some other sort of derogatory term. That's all I'll say on that.

As for non-wrestlers getting physical with wrestlers, I've never really liked it. To me it always cheapened the idea that pro wrestling is a highly skilled craft, and the guys involved with it are physical specimens. Seeing someone like Stephanie McMahon flaunting her lady balls all over the show, hitting her supposed employees is the opposite of entertaining. Knowing the business makes it even worse when you know there's never going to be any end goal for it. So we have all these guys and girls kowtowing to this psychotic woman who gets off on abusing just about everyone around her.

As an aside I don't like it when WWE overdoes the manager interference either. I feel it's been especially bad this year with Maryse basically winning and retaining the IC belt for Miz. It's not so much a sex thing so much as a bad writing thins. Especially when SmackDown has established that Bryan hates the fact Miz is their champion, yet does nothing to stop Maryse from constantly ruining any chancew of the guy fairly losing his belt. Also on top of that we had to deal with this Ziggler angle where despite only losing title matches to Miz because Maryse kept screwing him over, had to put his career on the line to get a title shot. It just makes everyone on the show not named Miz and Maryse look like idiots.

[Magic knows Black Lives Matter]

I get that it's hot now due to Lucha Underground and other companies but I've never ever been a fan of intergender wrestling. In WWE, it's super problematic, not even because of sponsorship issues, but kayfabe wise, they already have a division dedicated for women because they can't reasonably be expected to compete against men. Unless it's someone like Kharma or Chyna (and even then, I wasn't a fan) who are noticably bigger than their female counterparts, it essentially shits all over the women's division. Like, if this woman can fight dudes, what's wrong with all these other wack women on the roster? Just makes the entire division look second-tier.

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2017 3:38:53 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I don't see a dividing line between violence against women and in other fiction where nobody complains about it.

The live crowd aspect makes a big difference for me. There's just something I find icky about a man hitting a women with an arena full of people (usually) cheering it on.

[The Summer of Muskrat XVII]

Jan 5, 2017 17:48:48 GMT -5 Andy Martin said:

Jan 5, 2017 17:44:02 GMT -5 Oak: Certified Jade Hater said:

Truth be told I am as well. Having seen my fair share at a young age, it always leaves a bad feeling on the rare occasions I've seen it in wrestling.

Even in places like LU where it's all presented differently I feel a bit queasy watching it.

LU does a f***ing terrible job with intergender wrestling in my opinion. If you're gonna do intergender, have them go out and trade holds and have a wrestling match. Don't go out there and just punch and kick the living shit out of the woman, that is not entertaining to watch.

[ilggant]

I get how much of a problem it is to people to see a man hit a woman, but the fact that it's so universally accepted that a woman can hit a man without repercussions pisses me off.

If they insist on the no man on woman violence stance, then they should stop making the women hit the men.

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

I have no desire to see inter gender matches what so ever. Nor do I want to see Roman crack Steph in the Jaw after she slaps him. There is ways to toe the line like when they had him spear her at Mania after HHH stepped out the way. That's a way to get her comeuppance without the babyface out right acting a woman.

All in all Steph should stop putting her hands on her male talent. It's bad enough when the women stood there and took it but the men is a no go. It's basically a sense of bullying in Kayfabe saying I know you can't hit me so I'm going shit all over you.

If she talks down to them fine, plenty of superstars can get that say so to blast on her but she shouldn't be putting hands on the performers.

[trollrogue]

I was listening to a podcast about this very subject (KocoSports on YouTube of anyone's interested) one of the hosts brought up a GREAT point I thought, as a father of a young daughter.

The WWE makes all these claims about 1) being pro-women lately (especially Slappin' Stephanie McMahon) and 2) being a family-oriented PG wholesome good time show. Let's ignore sleazebucket Noam Dar for the moment on those two points...

A father would go ballistic if he let his little daughter watch Maryse walk up to Dean LUNATIC Ambrose and slap him in the face. Why? It's "making a statement" (as WWE like to say) that girls-- its cool to slap guys cause they aren't 'allowed' to hit back.

Guess what happens in the real world? If some little girl goes up to a redneck-looking grungy guy like Dean LUNATIC Ambrose and slaps them. Who wears a friggin WIFE BEATER. Yeah, I've seen the ending to that story every night on the 8 o clock news, and it doesn't end well.

Responsible parents should not allow girls to think they can hit boys/men and not get hit back. Not all guys are Gentleman Jack Gallagher . Some guys are clinical insane. And the WORST person to have a woman like Maryse slap is a guy who calls himself THE LUNATIC. Guys with violent/sexual predatory tendencies in this world are just begging for a reason or a catalyst like some misinformed little girl that wants to slap them first, as justification to go into a berserker roid rage.

Let's look at TV shows like Supergirl, or Buffy The Vampire Slayer, or Blindspot. The main female character on each show (Kara/Buffy/Jane) are fighters who kick guys' ass, but GET HIT BACK and often get bloodied and bruised. If you are a lady and want to hit a guy always prepare for them to retaliate, its stupid and dangerous to do anything else.

[Reflecto]

Jan 5, 2017 22:56:56 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

I get that it's hot now due to Lucha Underground and other companies but I've never ever been a fan of intergender wrestling. In WWE, it's super problematic, not even because of sponsorship issues, but kayfabe wise, they already have a division dedicated for women because they can't reasonably be expected to compete against men. Unless it's someone like Kharma or Chyna (and even then, I wasn't a fan) who are noticably bigger than their female counterparts, it essentially shits all over the women's division. Like, if this woman can fight dudes, what's wrong with all these other wack women on the roster? Just makes the entire division look second-tier.

All of this makes sense for intergender beforehand- but it's changed by the fact that the Cruiserweight Division is now a thing.

If someone like Kharma or Chyna are noticably bigger than their female counterparts, it's one thing if they're fighting in the heavyweight division (and the heavyweight division HAS gotten smaller since the Attitude Era- with people like Chris Jericho, AJ Styles, as legit heavyweights who were in the WCW cruiserweight division.)

The Heavyweight Division is one thing for a problem, and then you see the problem when you go to 205Live or the cruiserweights, because the question then becomes:

Are you literally saying that if Nia Jax were to go after one of the members of the Cruiserweight Division, that would be "wack" and "second-tier" for the women or "problematic" and "evil."

In this case, you'd have a monster heel female, sold as a brutal fighter, going against a cruiserweight- often sold as more of an aerial master who isn't as good in an actual fight.

Literally the only reason to say that Nia Jax couldn't handle herself against the cruiserweight is "the cruiserweight has a penis, and that alone means that he's automatically more brutal and a more deadly fighter than Nia Jax would ever be"...and if anyone really thinks that's the case, quite frankly, they are a bigger misogynist than anyone who supports intergender wrestling could ever be.

This fact goes further than even just "Nia Jax, the biggest woman, vs. the Cruiserweights" for that division- considering the size of cruiserweights is often less of a difference than most of the women in the division than the women are to Nia Jax, that should really say the same point for any woman entering the cruiserweight division, and thus any of the women could conceivably AT LEAST enter the cruiserweight division fairly.

[Magic knows Black Lives Matter]

Jan 6, 2017 2:00:29 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Jan 5, 2017 22:56:56 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

I get that it's hot now due to Lucha Underground and other companies but I've never ever been a fan of intergender wrestling. In WWE, it's super problematic, not even because of sponsorship issues, but kayfabe wise, they already have a division dedicated for women because they can't reasonably be expected to compete against men. Unless it's someone like Kharma or Chyna (and even then, I wasn't a fan) who are noticably bigger than their female counterparts, it essentially shits all over the women's division. Like, if this woman can fight dudes, what's wrong with all these other wack women on the roster? Just makes the entire division look second-tier.

All of this makes sense for intergender beforehand- but it's changed by the fact that the Cruiserweight Division is now a thing.

If someone like Kharma or Chyna are noticably bigger than their female counterparts, it's one thing if they're fighting in the heavyweight division (and the heavyweight division HAS gotten smaller since the Attitude Era- with people like Chris Jericho, AJ Styles, as legit heavyweights who were in the WCW cruiserweight division.)

The Heavyweight Division is one thing for a problem, and then you see the problem when you go to 205Live or the cruiserweights, because the question then becomes:

Are you literally saying that if Nia Jax were to go after one of the members of the Cruiserweight Division, that would be "wack" and "second-tier" for the women or "problematic" and "evil."

In this case, you'd have a monster heel female, sold as a brutal fighter, going against a cruiserweight- often sold as more of an aerial master who isn't as good in an actual fight.

Literally the only reason to say that Nia Jax couldn't handle herself against the cruiserweight is "the cruiserweight has a penis, and that alone means that he's automatically more brutal and a more deadly fighter than Nia Jax would ever be"...and if anyone really thinks that's the case, quite frankly, they are a bigger misogynist than anyone who supports intergender wrestling could ever be.

This fact goes further than even just "Nia Jax, the biggest woman, vs. the Cruiserweights" for that division- considering the size of cruiserweights is often less of a difference than most of the women in the division than the women are to Nia Jax, that should really say the same point for any woman entering the cruiserweight division, and thus any of the women could conceivably AT LEAST enter the cruiserweight division fairly.

Well, first thing's first, it will be problematic for the sake of sponsers in modern WWE regardless of how it goes down. That's just the reality of the situation for a variety of reasons. There are arguments for it, and arguments against it, but something tells me a lot of their sponsors aren't gonna be too happy if Brian Kendrick is chocking a woman in the Captain's Hook or whatever he calls it. It's not a good look.

Secondly, what you said isn't even really my point. It's about having divisions and having people step out of that division while others don't move up. Using the old CW division as an example, Rey moved out of it and went onto headline shows as a top guy. Good for him and it was 100% the right thing to do business-wise but it also buried the Cruserweights. If Rey can do it, why do these other geeks need their own belt? Just fight the big boys. It made it clear that the real stars don't fight in that division.

To me, the entire point of having separate divisions is the idea that placing people in these divisions makes for more competitive fights and doesn't handicap people by placing them in there with someone that would destroy them on virtually any day. It'd be like booking Connor McGregor vs. Daniel Cormier. McGregor is a stellar fighter, even his biggest critics can't deny that, but he would get destroyed by DC (who's arguably a less talented pound for pound fighter) simply due to the size difference.

My main point is that WWE, for decades, has established that women, within their universe, need their own separate division because the times when a woman has been faced with a man, the man attacking the woman has been treated as a villainous act because it's not anything resembling a fair fight. Mysogony plays a part because wrestling is backwards as f*** but that's the universe WWE has created. To break from that now would be very hard to accept as a viewer knowing that we've been told forever that women should not reasonably be expected to compete with men. It would seem out of place and, frankly, kinda dumb and unrealistic. 

From a personal standpoint, it's also just uncomfortable for me to watch but that's another thing entirely.

[ilggant]

Let me put it out there that I have no interest in seeing intergender matches, ever.

What I think bothers me the most is not even the fact that Ambrose doesn't react. It's the fact that Maryse hits him and just stands there like she's saying you can't do anything about it.

If they absolutely HAVE to have the women hit men, at least make them hit and run away or something. Show the audience that what just happened is wrong.

[Reflecto]

Jan 6, 2017 2:29:26 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

Jan 6, 2017 2:00:29 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

All of this makes sense for intergender beforehand- but it's changed by the fact that the Cruiserweight Division is now a thing.

If someone like Kharma or Chyna are noticably bigger than their female counterparts, it's one thing if they're fighting in the heavyweight division (and the heavyweight division HAS gotten smaller since the Attitude Era- with people like Chris Jericho, AJ Styles, as legit heavyweights who were in the WCW cruiserweight division.)

The Heavyweight Division is one thing for a problem, and then you see the problem when you go to 205Live or the cruiserweights, because the question then becomes:

Are you literally saying that if Nia Jax were to go after one of the members of the Cruiserweight Division, that would be "wack" and "second-tier" for the women or "problematic" and "evil."

In this case, you'd have a monster heel female, sold as a brutal fighter, going against a cruiserweight- often sold as more of an aerial master who isn't as good in an actual fight.

Literally the only reason to say that Nia Jax couldn't handle herself against the cruiserweight is "the cruiserweight has a penis, and that alone means that he's automatically more brutal and a more deadly fighter than Nia Jax would ever be"...and if anyone really thinks that's the case, quite frankly, they are a bigger misogynist than anyone who supports intergender wrestling could ever be.

This fact goes further than even just "Nia Jax, the biggest woman, vs. the Cruiserweights" for that division- considering the size of cruiserweights is often less of a difference than most of the women in the division than the women are to Nia Jax, that should really say the same point for any woman entering the cruiserweight division, and thus any of the women could conceivably AT LEAST enter the cruiserweight division fairly.

Well, first thing's first, it will be problematic for the sake of sponsers in modern WWE regardless of how it goes down. That's just the reality of the situation for a variety of reasons. There are arguments for it, and arguments against it, but something tells me a lot of their sponsors aren't gonna be too happy if Brian Kendrick is chocking a woman in the Captain's Hook or whatever he calls it. It's not a good look.

Secondly, what you said isn't even really my point. It's about having divisions and having people step out of that division while others don't move up. Using the old CW division as an example, Rey moved out of it and went onto headline shows as a top guy. Good for him and it was 100% the right thing to do business-wise but it also buried the Cruserweights. If Rey can do it, why do these other geeks need their own belt? Just fight the big boys. It made it clear that the real stars don't fight in that division.

To me, the entire point of having separate divisions is the idea that placing people in these divisions makes for more competitive fights and doesn't handicap people by placing them in there with someone that would destroy them on virtually any day. It'd be like booking Connor McGregor vs. Daniel Cormier. McGregor is a stellar fighter, even his biggest critics can't deny that, but he would get destroyed by DC (who's arguably a less talented pound for pound fighter) simply due to the size difference.

My main point is that WWE, for decades, has established that women, within their universe, need their own separate division because the times when a woman has been faced with a man, the man attacking the woman has been treated as a villainous act because it's not anything resembling a fair fight. Mysogony plays a part because wrestling is backwards as f*** but that's the universe WWE has created. To break from that now would be very hard to accept as a viewer knowing that we've been told forever that women should not reasonably be expected to compete with men. It would seem out of place and, frankly, kinda dumb and unrealistic. 

From a personal standpoint, it's also just uncomfortable for me to watch but that's another thing entirely.

Of course, but it's the same problem when women's wrestling is in place- there's one weight class for everyone.

With the men, it is a good example- the old CW division was 225 pounds, and Rey moved out of it in the WWE, but beyond Rey...Jericho was a WCW cruiserweight. AJ Styles was a WCW cruiserweight. That argument was there, and it did bury the cruiserweights...but the division got smaller, and so the heavyweights are a smaller size than they were (as cruisers dropped to 205.)

With women, on the other hand, it just has one division for all the women outright, no matter their size- and that makes matters worse as the division is small. Using last week's Raw for example: Bayley pulled off the win on Nia Jax, which she had gutted through in NXT a few times. It's normal. It's natural there...and Sasha Banks may beat Nia Jax as well.

Perfectly natural against the biggest monster heel of the division.

Only problem with that:

Nia Jax is 6'', 270 pounds.

Kevin Owens is 6'', 266 pounds. (Even if 4 pounds is virtually nothing, it's fair to say the two are the same size.)

WWE has already broken the Conor McGregor vs. Daniel Cormier argument by putting women like Bayley or Sasha Banks against Nia Jax and not only not immediately having their asses handed to them, but actually thriving or WINNING against Nia Jax. So, if you're willing to tell the fans to suspend disbelief of "Nia Jax should WRECK that girl" already, why's it possible to suspend disbelief Bayley or Sasha could fight Nia Jax on fair grounds, but NOT possible to suspend disbelief Bayley or Sasha could compete against Kevin Owens for the Universal Title?

[LuchaBella]

*enters thread* not touching this with a 10ft pole... *leaves thread*

[nisidhe]

The current immuring of fans to seeing violence by and against non-combating women seems, like a great deal of issues now plaguing wrestling in general, to date back to ECW's heyday. While the valets were taking wrestler-style bumps, the crowd's reactions only encouraged the violence further and allowed it to spill into other promotions, like the latter-day WCW and WWE. In a post-Benoit age, certain elements that we used to embrace are no longer acceptable. The trope of the valet slapping the wrestler really has only one "acceptable" response now - a supporting valet on the other side attacking the slapper and the donnybrook ensues. It shows that there are consequences for the instigator to that kind of violence while it preserves the face character's decency in the eyes of fans.

Intergender matches do not exist in other combat sports for a reason - there are fundamental differences between men's and women's physiologies and body compositions which make such competitions inherent unequal. In wrestling, they seem to exist for one reason only - to showcase, at least potentially, the systematic beatdown of a woman within a "sanctioned" contest. The woman rarely wins credibly and, when she does, she still doesn't garner any respect from the crowd. It's akin to the myth of the Amazons: they existed only in the imaginations of Greek poets and writers to create a greater challenge that the Greek man could still overcome and triumph, all while disrespecting them for not being the feminine, passive types they're "supposed" to be. Simply put:

- Stephanie McMahon needs to keep her hands to herself (and preferably stay off TV)
- do not allow intergender matches at all if you value the diversity of your roster
- do not tolerate any violence among or against non-combating onscreen talents, such as valets; or, if it is to be tolerated for storyline purposes, ensure that response comes from someone of the same gender, to avoid the optics of domestic-style, gender-based violence.

[HMARK Center]

I feel like we're getting some perspectives here that are way too "black and white morality" based, too much "you hit me so I get to hit you back or it's not fair!" Taken in a vacuum, no, I'd really rather not see Dean Ambrose retaliate against a woman like Maryse slapping him, mainly because he's enormously stronger than her and could break her with a strong hit, making him striking her extra uncomfortable to see. That's something people have to take into account in interactions like this; most guys are just naturally larger than most women, and responding to a slap with a similar blow will have disproportionate effects. Plus, given that Dean is meant to be the "good guy", albeit an unhinged one, his character doesn't gain anything by hitting somebody much smaller than he is. This doesn't mean that a woman hitting a guy is right, and in this situation Maryse is at least clearly depicted as the heel taking advantage of this situation, but no, things aren't as simple as "eye for an eye" when there's such a size/strength disparity.

However, take it out of the vacuum for a moment, and even then it's still crappy. Maryse is a multi-time Divas champ, so in kayfabe, at least, she should be competent in a fight, yet her slapping Ambrose just comes off as weak and what have you. Just feels flimsy. Plus, this is WWE; they've structured their fictional world in such a way that men and women don't really physically interact much, while companies like Lucha Underground approach it in a completely different way.

Intergender wrestling CAN work, but it's admittedly difficult and I don't totally blame people for having reasons for not being big into it. A straight-up man vs. woman wrestling match at least has the storytelling context of a competition, not a brawl, and even if you did want them to brawl then a good enough kayfabe and character build could...not definitely, but could make it work.

[Kevin Hamilton]

Not in particularly. Just given size differentials you don't necessarily want wrestlers twice a valet's size striking back. It's like the Mixon thing someone mentioned earlier: that chick was accosting him and was wrong, but you're telling me he couldn't have extricated himself from the situation WITHOUT literally breaking her face? C'mon now. "They started it" isn't even a good argument when you're five. It's one thing if your life is legitimately in danger, but if not you utilize some restraint.

Same deal here. If you're trying to have a face, you can't really have them retaliate in a fashion that would be overkill.

If the two people are on a perceived skill and/or strength level, that'd be different. But that's not this.

[Reflecto]

Jan 7, 2017 0:16:39 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

However, take it out of the vacuum for a moment, and even then it's still crappy. Maryse is a multi-time Divas champ, so in kayfabe, at least, she should be competent in a fight, yet her slapping Ambrose just comes off as weak and what have you. Just feels flimsy. Plus, this is WWE; they've structured their fictional world in such a way that men and women don't really physically interact much, while companies like Lucha Underground approach it in a completely different way.

This, however, has another problem that makes the vacuum happen: wrestling has put the men's division and the women's division in separate vacuums.

There's almost no interaction between the top male babyfaces and virtually ANY female babyface on the roster, and as a result you have problems like this.

If Ambrose gets slapped by Maryse...yes, Dean Ambrose is a babyface, he's a hero, and he knows he is one of the best workers on the roster. Even if Maryse is a multi-time Divas'champion and would be competent in a fight, it's not totally destroying kayfabe to say "yes, Maryse is probably very good in a fight, but she's no Dean Ambrose either".

However, if Ambrose's girlfriend and the only woman he's allied with onscreen is Renee Young...who, in kayfabe is a journalist and commentator who is completely untrained and cannot wrestle...then suddenly Maryse would be outright bullying the only woman who could get revenge for Dean in this case (and Renee beating Maryse WOULD make Maryse look as weak as an untrained woman.)

At the same time, this is the problem, since the women's wrestlers don't basically mesh with men's workers, period...and for the women's divisions, any time a man does wrestle in a mixed tag match with a woman who isn't his manager, or is in a promo with someone who isn't his manager and actually interacts with them, fans think the sky is falling and they're due to be in a romance storyline whether or not it happens. For one example on Smackdown: since she just debuted in the draft and was there...Alexa Bliss got to a point where she's the SD Women's Champion- but we also have no proof that Alexa Bliss has actually ever spoken to any man on the Smackdown roster, much less have natural friendships or alliances- or any dislikes enough to take the side of someone against them.

This makes it more necessary for questions like 'well, why can't a man slap a woman back if she slaps them", since the only relative way for natural comeuppance to occur, solely based on an in-ring match for it to happen- would be incredibly contrived. Using Maryse vs. Dean Ambrose as an example, getting "Maryse Slapped Dean Ambrose" to pay off in a reasonable women's match where Maryse gets comeuppance would have to go through:

"Well, Dean Ambrose is dating Renee Young, and Maryse slapped him over that. Renee Young's a commentator, so she's out of it...BUT, Renee Young is also one of the co-hosts of Talking Smack, and Daniel Bryan hates The Miz as much as Ambrose does, and Bryan's proven he's basically pretty friendly with Renee...so, MAYBE, if Ambrose or Renee asked Daniel Bryan to put a word in, Bryan could turn around and ask his wife Brie Bella to be the go-between, and then Brie proceeds to ask her sister, and suddenly Nikki Bella will attack Maryse over this!"

When that's the level of hoops you have to go through for a leap of faith to get to any possible way for these to pay off in a match, you have some problems.

[The Thread Barbi]

30 years ago Ultimate Warrior was press slamming and walking all over that dastardly Queen Sherri, and everyone loved it.

[J. Hova]

I hate intergender matches. I don't see any upside to it for either performer.

With that said, physical interaction between man and woman in wrestling can be done well. Look at Jake Roberts and Miss Elizabeth, when he slapped her, my six year old self was ready to go to his house and burn it to the ground. That was because he was a heel, it was presented as like the ultimate heel thing to do. And this was after he had attacked Savage with a damned snake.

As far as Stephanie McMahon goes, I don't want to see a male performer hit her. I don't want to see her eat a male performer's finisher. I want to see her get an exploder suplex from Becky or Bank Statement from Sasha and never be heard from again on TV. Hell, I'd even be willing to watch that as a match just to see Stephanie finally get hers. I know it will never happen since she is the most protected member of the WWE and possibly in wresting history.