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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 19:03:33 GMT -5
The problem with Stephanie, is everyone seems like a jobber compared to her. Sasha is supposed to be a "Boss", but when Stephanie appears, she's acts like a little girl when mommy comes home. Paige and Alexa are supposed to be self-centered bitches, but not if Queen Stephanie appears.
Where's a female Stone Cold to give Steph a stunner?
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Post by Old Jack Burton on Dec 19, 2017 21:08:28 GMT -5
Steph can't do anything right in some people's eyes. As far as the hugging goes: these women are rivals but they are also all in it together. That's the on-going story of the women's division they have been telling for years now. But they literally AREN'T all in it together, in Kayfabe, Absolution have been coming in and causing chaos and disorder, literally wanting to take everything from everyone, and Bliss thinks she is the greatest one of them all. This is not an underlying story of all the girls being in it together, it's just bad presentation that especially makes the heels look like goofs. Everyone just looked bad, it's wrestling, the whole presentation of wrestling is it's hard to make friends and really easy to make enemies. A whole division being "All in it together" is stupid and completely obliterates any interest in the product they're trying to present. The match needs to have hooks and story to really sell it, not "Hey look how great women are" which we friggen get already, it's just dumb, whole thing was dumb. Also Steph put herself over, put Moolah over, hijacked the YES chant or tried to, she's supposed to be a heel and constantly presents herself as such, which makes this all the more awkward, it's not a "She can't do anything right", this segment just flat out blew, it wouldn't have been saved with Angle either. All I can say to that is you simply do not understand or willfully choose to not understand the story that is being presented to you in the WWE. It may be a side effect of being conditioned to think that the default position for a wrestling federation is that the company itself is a heel entity that wrestlers must struggle against as faces or align with as heels, when that does not always need to be the case. The WWE Women's division is a face entity. Even the "Bad Guys" are faces on a deeper level. They all believe in it. So when it comes to big announcements you'll even see the heels celebrating. This is completely normal in women's wrestling btw. Joshi companies had heels and faces running out at the beginning of big shows standing next to each other in ring for years. Guys like Triple H have really damaged wrestling imo where it has nearly killed the capability of heels to be reasonable human beings outside of the ring. The expectation now is for them to be bloodthirsty psychopaths. Alexa and Paige are not supposed to be quite that evil. They're just mean girls.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Dec 19, 2017 21:10:30 GMT -5
But they literally AREN'T all in it together, in Kayfabe, Absolution have been coming in and causing chaos and disorder, literally wanting to take everything from everyone, and Bliss thinks she is the greatest one of them all. This is not an underlying story of all the girls being in it together, it's just bad presentation that especially makes the heels look like goofs. Everyone just looked bad, it's wrestling, the whole presentation of wrestling is it's hard to make friends and really easy to make enemies. A whole division being "All in it together" is stupid and completely obliterates any interest in the product they're trying to present. The match needs to have hooks and story to really sell it, not "Hey look how great women are" which we friggen get already, it's just dumb, whole thing was dumb. Also Steph put herself over, put Moolah over, hijacked the YES chant or tried to, she's supposed to be a heel and constantly presents herself as such, which makes this all the more awkward, it's not a "She can't do anything right", this segment just flat out blew, it wouldn't have been saved with Angle either. All I can say to that is you simply do not understand or willfully choose to not understand the story that is being presented to you in the WWE. It may be a side effect of being conditioned to think that the default position for a wrestling federation is that the company itself is a heel entity that wrestlers must struggle against as faces or align with as heels, when that does not always need to be the case. The WWE Women's division is a face entity. Even the "Bad Guys" are faces on a deeper level. They all believe in it. So when it comes to big announcements you'll even see the heels celebrating. This is completely normal in women's wrestling btw. Joshi companies had heels and faces running out at the beginning of big shows standing next to each other in ring for years. Guys like Triple H have really damaged wrestling imo where it has nearly killed the capability of heels to be reasonable human beings outside of the ring. The expectation now is for them to be bloodthirsty psychopaths. Alexa and Paige are not supposed to be quite that evil. They're just mean girls. I'm going to say this as nicely as possible and leave it at that, do not tell me what I do and do not understand about wrestling and talk down to me to reinforce your own opinions and stance on how you believe wrestling works and how I seemingly don't understand the way you do. You are free to think however you like about the situation, but when you start saying "You simply do not understand or willfully choose to not understand", you've crossed a line.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 19, 2017 21:11:55 GMT -5
Where's a female Stone Cold to give Steph a stunner? Be careful what you ask for. {Spoiler}
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Post by Old Jack Burton on Dec 19, 2017 22:19:44 GMT -5
All I can say to that is you simply do not understand or willfully choose to not understand the story that is being presented to you in the WWE. It may be a side effect of being conditioned to think that the default position for a wrestling federation is that the company itself is a heel entity that wrestlers must struggle against as faces or align with as heels, when that does not always need to be the case. The WWE Women's division is a face entity. Even the "Bad Guys" are faces on a deeper level. They all believe in it. So when it comes to big announcements you'll even see the heels celebrating. This is completely normal in women's wrestling btw. Joshi companies had heels and faces running out at the beginning of big shows standing next to each other in ring for years. Guys like Triple H have really damaged wrestling imo where it has nearly killed the capability of heels to be reasonable human beings outside of the ring. The expectation now is for them to be bloodthirsty psychopaths. Alexa and Paige are not supposed to be quite that evil. They're just mean girls. I'm going to say this as nicely as possible and leave it at that, do not tell me what I do and do not understand about wrestling and talk down to me to reinforce your own opinions and stance on how you believe wrestling works and how I seemingly don't understand the way you do. You are free to think however you like about the situation, but when you start saying "You simply do not understand or willfully choose to not understand", you've crossed a line. I have done it and I will keep doing it where it is my opinion. If you do not like discussing wrestling with me you are free to not reply to my posts.
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Matt
El Dandy
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Post by Matt on Dec 19, 2017 22:29:32 GMT -5
I'm not looking forward to it. It's going to take away from the show as a whole to have two Rumbles that night, this could have been done on Raw.
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Post by Old Jack Burton on Dec 19, 2017 22:38:31 GMT -5
The problem with Stephanie, is everyone seems like a jobber compared to her. Sasha is supposed to be a "Boss", but when Stephanie appears, she's acts like a little girl when mommy comes home. Paige and Alexa are supposed to be self-centered bitches, but not if Queen Stephanie appears. Where's a female Stone Cold to give Steph a stunner? If they were doing things right the person in charge of the women would be on the small side and not a former wrestler. And if not that then at least someone who is portrayed to be no match for the wrestlers in a physical confrontation. But WWE is obsessed with Attitude and RA era stars and that extends to Stephanie. And with her doing her best femme HHH impersonation in recent years the situation is made even worse. I forget where I read it and who said it (it might have been Jim Cornette) but there was a quote that said "Once a promoter puts themselves in the show the company is dying. Because they'll get addicted to the spotlight and never want to give it up, and they never will because they're in charge". WWE has been doing this for about near 20 years now, so it's debatable. Creatively dying, maybe. This is actually a bigger problem with Shane right now imo. But that's a digression.
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Post by Kevin Dunn on Dec 19, 2017 22:57:27 GMT -5
Wait why does everyone hate moolah?
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Dec 19, 2017 23:13:47 GMT -5
I'm going to say this as nicely as possible and leave it at that, do not tell me what I do and do not understand about wrestling and talk down to me to reinforce your own opinions and stance on how you believe wrestling works and how I seemingly don't understand the way you do. You are free to think however you like about the situation, but when you start saying "You simply do not understand or willfully choose to not understand", you've crossed a line. I have done it and I will keep doing it where it is my opinion. If you do not like discussing wrestling with me you are free to not reply to my posts. There's a difference, I was deconstructing the basis of the feud and why you thought the storyline was perceived in one way where I thought it might be another. I wasn't saying you didn't understand or anything like that where you said I was willingly ignoring things to support my own point, which I was not, I was simply giving my own take. You can easily do that without completely undercutting everything I state myself. That just kills any discussion from where I'm standing.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 19, 2017 23:16:29 GMT -5
Wait why does everyone hate moolah? Spoilered for size: {Spoiler}Over the years, various female wrestlers have come forward with stories accusing Ellison (Moolah) of being a pimp that often provided various wrestling promoters with unsuspecting female wrestlers that would be used as sex objects. One of the most notorious accusations is from the family of Sweet Georgia Brown (Susie Mae McCoy). McCoy, who was trained and booked by Ellison and her then-husband Buddy Lee, told her daughter that she was often raped, given drugs and made an addict in an intentional attempt by Ellison and Lee to control her. Ida Martinez, who wrestled during the 1960s, also recalls that many of the regional promoters “demanded personal services” before they would pay the female wrestlers. In a 2002 interview, Luna Vachon claimed that when she was sixteen years old and training at Ellison's camp, Ellison sent her out of state to be photographed by an older man. Although she remained clothed during the photo shoot, Vachon stated she felt taken advantage of by Ellison and the older man. Vachon also stated that her aunt, Vivian Vachon, witnessed Ellison abusing alcohol and having sex with her female trainees. Sandy Parker, a lesbian former pupil of Ellison's, also claims that Ellison forbade her from going to any gay bars and tried to press her to date men. Parker says this enranged her, because "(Moolah) was two faced because she had her own little dalliances that we all knew about."
However, Wendi Richter stated that Ellison did not actually train the wrestlers at her wrestling school. Instead, Richter stated that Ellison accepted payment of the training fee (which at the time of Richter's training was five hundred dollars) and had other female wrestlers within her camp (including Leilani Kai, Judy Martin, Winona Littleheart, and Joyce Grable) train the new recruits, and that these women did not get paid for their additional work as trainers. Richter also stated that Ellison required all women that received training at her camp to each sign a contract that allowed Ellison to function as their booker and receive twenty five percent of their booking fee. Trainees were also required to rent duplex apartments on Ellison's property and they were responsible for paying her for rent and utilities. The training lasted six months and took place up to five hours per day inside a wrestling ring in a barn that lacked heating and air conditioning or fans. Debbie Johnson, another former trainee of Ellison's, stated that she was required to give Ellison thirty percent of her booking fee, and her paycheck was further reduced as Ellison deducted travel expenses, food, rent, and utilities before paying her. As a result, Johnson worked for Ellison for two years before she received any money. Johnson stated that Ellison would refuse to book certain women in her training camp if they angered her, and that Ellison monitored her and refused to let her leave the physical constraints of the training camp unless she was accompanied by someone else.
As well as allegedly exploiting female wrestlers sexually, Ellison has been accused of using her financial influence to control the women's wrestling scene and ensure that other women did not gain greater recognition. In addition to being a key participant in the original screwjob on Wendi Richter, Ellison used her influence to take over the spot originally held by her protégé Mad Maxine on the animated series Hulk Hogan's Rock 'n' Wrestling. Maxine was about to receive a big push by Vince McMahon but left the WWF shortly afterwards, as Ellison was unwilling to provide her with additional bookings. Numerous other former trainees defected from Ellison after growing tired of sharing their paychecks with Ellison. Women wrestlers including Vivian and Luna Vachon, Ann Casey, and Darling Dagmar moved into other regions where Ellison had less control and negotiated their own payouts with promoters.
Both Judy Martin and Leilani Kai told in later interviews that Moolah would collect the women wrestler's pay from promoters, and after taking out her own pay, would only give the girls half of the money they were owed (keeping half of their pay for herself, plus her own pay) and telling them that was all the promoter gave her to give them. Martin stated that shortly before Ellison left the WWF in 1988 (shortly after falling out with Martin and Kai due to Ellison no longer receiving their booking fees), she sabotaged the duo while they were touring Japan. Martin stated that Ellison contacted Japanese promoters and informed them that the Jumping Bomb Angels were supposed to drop the WWF Women's Tag Team Championship to The Glamour Girls before Martin and Kai returned to the United States. This was contrary to the booking decision made by Pat Patterson before the Japanese tour began. Unable to reach Patterson by telephone, Kai and Martin agreed to win the titles from the Angels since Ellison had already misinformed the Japanese promoters. Martin stated that upon returning to the United States, Patterson was angry with them and confirmed that nobody within the WWF made the decision for the title change and that due to her long-standing relationship with the company, the WWF refused to listen to their explanation of Ellison's deceit. Shortly thereafter, the WWF phased out the WWF Women's Tag Team Championship. In a later shoot interview, Leilani Kai told that had things gone as the WWF originally planned, The Glamour Girls would have had a title match against the Jumping Bomb Angels at Wrestlemania IV and that Ellison's actions had cost the four girls what would have been ultimately their biggest ever payday.
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Perfect Timing
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Post by Perfect Timing on Dec 20, 2017 1:06:09 GMT -5
There should only be one Royal Rumble IMO. Makes it more special. Womens Chamber match would work alot better than this.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 20, 2017 4:05:37 GMT -5
See, this is why WWE- and pro wrestling as a whole- needs to get away from heel management, at least for a while. They need to re-establish the company as the good guys.
I'm fine with faces and heels sharing the ring in segments, but the GM can't be both a face and heel whenever she wants each week. It does condition fans to never trust the company. And since Austin vs. McMahon is over, that formula doesn't work anymore. If this were a Jack Tunney making this announcement and not Stephanie, fans could probably buy into it more.
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Post by eJm on Dec 20, 2017 5:15:27 GMT -5
See, this is why WWE- and pro wrestling as a whole- needs to get away from heel management, at least for a while. They need to re-establish the company as the good guys. I'm fine with faces and heels sharing the ring in segments, but the GM can't be both a face and heel whenever she wants each week. It does condition fans to never trust the company. And since Austin vs. McMahon is over, that formula doesn't work anymore. If this were a Jack Tunney making this announcement and not Stephanie, fans could probably buy into it more. Pretty much, yeah. Also would help in the build of getting lower card acts over again since we don’t have a heel GM undermining them constantly when you wonder why a) the talent themselves don’t quit or b) if they think they’re that bad or useless, just fire them. Having at least a neutral GM on the sidelines most of the time would help in establishing how being on the WWE payroll isn’t an excuse for a dictator like presence to undermine the rest of the roster.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 20, 2017 7:04:30 GMT -5
This idea of the women's division being faces en masse is illogical on a few levels, since the heel they have been opposed by is the WWE itself who have spent years booking women like shit, so it makes even less sense for the corporate face of the WWE, Stephanie McMahon, to act like a face who boldly acts like a progressive force for change. It's also idiotic to have the woman who has consistently demeaned and degraded women by abusing her authority over them, to be that force when nothing associated with her character had indicated she has any inclination or motivation to help their cause. WWE could have booked the women's division to put their differences aside for a moment and stand together to demand a Royal Rumble for themselves, but they didn't, because their intention is to aggrandise Stephanie, rather than the wrestlers.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 20, 2017 9:19:16 GMT -5
This idea of the women's division being faces en masse is illogical on a few levels, since the heel they have been opposed by is the WWE itself who have spent years booking women like shit, so it makes even less sense for the corporate face of the WWE, Stephanie McMahon, to act like a face who boldly acts like a progressive force for change. It's also idiotic to have the woman who has consistently demeaned and degraded women by abusing her authority over them, to be that force when nothing associated with her character had indicated she has any inclination or motivation to help their cause. WWE could have booked the women's division to put their differences aside for a moment and stand together to demand a Royal Rumble for themselves, but they didn't, because their intention is to aggrandise Stephanie, rather than the wrestlers. Well, that's what I'm saying, they should have stopped the "management is the bad guy " booking years ago. In a perfect wrestling world, the Authority would have died at WrestleMania 30 and never returned.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 14:11:12 GMT -5
Where's a female Stone Cold to give Steph a stunner? Be careful what you ask for. {Spoiler}{Spoiler} Follow by Because daddy's little girl can't look weak.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 20, 2017 14:21:32 GMT -5
This idea of the women's division being faces en masse is illogical on a few levels, since the heel they have been opposed by is the WWE itself who have spent years booking women like shit, so it makes even less sense for the corporate face of the WWE, Stephanie McMahon, to act like a face who boldly acts like a progressive force for change. It's also idiotic to have the woman who has consistently demeaned and degraded women by abusing her authority over them, to be that force when nothing associated with her character had indicated she has any inclination or motivation to help their cause. WWE could have booked the women's division to put their differences aside for a moment and stand together to demand a Royal Rumble for themselves, but they didn't, because their intention is to aggrandise Stephanie, rather than the wrestlers. Well, that's what I'm saying, they should have stopped the "management is the bad guy " booking years ago. In a perfect wrestling world, the Authority would have died at WrestleMania 30 and never returned. Heel authority figures should have begun and ended with Vince McMahon, because his feud with Stone Cold was a personal one. For the most part, he didn't even bother with the rest of the roster. His point of conflict was that he didn't want a beer drinking, foul mouthed, redneck as his champion, and his obsession with preventing it, and also breaking Austin's spirit was the driving force behind Vince's descent into insanity. It was a focused and direct feud where the heel originally had a fairly legit and reasonable rationale for doing what he did. It makes no sense beyond that to have heel authority figures, because they have no motive, and more importantly, they have no obstacles to victory. If a heel boss doesn't like a wrestler, they can fire them. If they don't like a particular champion, they can simply strip them of the title and award the title to the preferred choice. Heel bosses also make faces look like idiots. Why bother competing in a company where the bosses are skewed against them? Why waste their time in matches where the rules are biased? Having constantly heel bosses makes any face victories short lived. Even if the faces prevail in their matches somehow, the heel bosses will be back, and the cycle will repeat all over again. Then, instead of the face simply saying "enough of this shit" and leaving, you end up seeing them desperate to keep their jobs, even main eventers who are also supposed to be hugely successful and wealthy "superstars", and that makes them look like even bigger dicks and losers. If WWE is to improve, the "heel authority role" MUST be scrapped. They have to go back to the neutrality of the 1980's, when WWE as an organisation was neutral, to the point where their on-screen presence was represented by Jack Tunney, who symbolised a typically colourless, bland, bureaucrat.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Dec 20, 2017 17:53:10 GMT -5
www.prowrestlingsheet.com/womens-rumble-left-dark-wwe/Apparently the female wrestlers weren’t told anything about this announcement beforehand, so the on-screen announcement was their first time hearing that they’re doing the all-women Rumble and these were genuine reactions. Doesn’t justify it as it pertains to preserving a storyline narrative, but still cool.
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BigAl
Unicron
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Post by BigAl on Dec 20, 2017 21:42:35 GMT -5
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't there a 30 women battle Royale or something once and Santino won, one that actually had a lot of older Veterans and formwr Srars with then current divas and it was a huge mess and the live crowd didnt care less, why would a royal Rumble with women work if the crowd that's going to be ready to crap upon it
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Dec 20, 2017 22:29:26 GMT -5
www.prowrestlingsheet.com/womens-rumble-left-dark-wwe/Apparently the female wrestlers weren’t told anything about this announcement beforehand, so the on-screen announcement was their first time hearing that they’re doing the all-women Rumble and these were genuine reactions. Doesn’t justify it as it pertains to preserving a storyline narrative, but still cool. There's a time and a place for everything and this just wasn't it for them. Do a Network Special and tell them backstage for a genuine reaction, don't do it and bury the division and the match in one foul swoop with such a bad and awkward kayfabe break.
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