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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 16:51:49 GMT -5
Shawn could do face or heel, fighting, wrestling, main event high flying, goofy, funny, silly, serious, arrogant, face in peril, humblr, desperate....I could keep going.
Basically he could do everything at the same level of quality.
Bret probably was better technically and for the most part I preferred his matches, BUT he didn't have anything like the range.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Dec 30, 2017 16:54:02 GMT -5
Shawn could do face or heel, fighting, wrestling, main event high flying, goofy, funny, silly, serious, arrogant, face in peril, humblr, desperate....I could keep going. Basically he could do everything at the same level of quality. Bret probably was better technically and for the most part I preferred his matches, BUT he didn't have anything like the range. Let's be real real here. Shawn Michaels, on his best day, pre or post-comeback, could never, *cue Jericho voice* EVER pull of humble. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 16:56:01 GMT -5
Shawn could do face or heel, fighting, wrestling, main event high flying, goofy, funny, silly, serious, arrogant, face in peril, humblr, desperate....I could keep going. Basically he could do everything at the same level of quality. Bret probably was better technically and for the most part I preferred his matches, BUT he didn't have anything like the range. Let's be real real here. Shawn Michaels, on his best day, pre or post-comeback, could never, *cue Jericho voice* EVER pull of humble. I think he could in the right angle post-comeback |
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 30, 2017 17:02:14 GMT -5
In-ring pyschology
Charisma inside and out of the ring
His ability to tell virtually any story through simple body language
The ability to go from jokey to serious in an instant and have it actually be believable
His swag
His willingness to flex for the gram at all times
For my money, HBK is the GOAT and nobody really comes close outside of Eddie Guerrero.
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Post by abjordans on Dec 30, 2017 17:02:30 GMT -5
HBK matches are truly works of art. I legit think HBK is as good at professional wrestling as anyone has ever been at anything.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 17:05:58 GMT -5
I’ll just echo what everyone else has said in that HBK at his best was the best in-ring performer I’ve ever seen. The psychology of his matches was incredible and he made you suspend your disbelief and feel like you were watching a real, legitimate athletic competition better than anyone.
AJ Styles has that quality too. He’s the closest thing to Shawn I’ve ever seen. That’s my Wrestlemania dream match. You just know that even now, in his 50s, Shawn would tear the house down working with a guy like AJ.
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Powerline
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Post by Powerline on Dec 30, 2017 17:10:49 GMT -5
He earns a spot in the GoAT conversation for certain. Dunno if I'd put him right at #1. I think Flair would have something to say about it, for one. I'm also the kind of guy who, if they become MEGA draws, then that has to weight heavily in the conversation. Just on drawing power alone in his prime, I'd put Hogan over Shawn, and I'd put Austin #1 all time for both being good in the ring AND being a mega draw. And if AJ Styles can keep up his pace and keep clean (barring a catastrophic injury, God forbid...I don't see why he wouldn't) I think he might have a spot at the table too, especially if WWE ever decided to make him "the guy".
Shawn was a dick to work with in the 90s, and you could tell sometimes he phoned it in. And sometimes people would use the times Shawn phoned it in to close the gap. There's an Owen/Shawn match...I think on an episode of Raw...where you can tell in the first few minutes Owen picks up that Shawn is just walking through it and Owen just goes full-blast. Not that he went full "Shawn/Hogan oversell", but he was putting more into his moves, his selling, just everything. The end of the match even had Owen hitting an inziguri that looked like he was trying to knock Shawn's head into the upper deck, then Owen waits for him to get up to hit another move and gets caught with an on-the-chest Sweet Chin Music that barely grazed him and Shawn got the 3 count.
Now, when Shawn WANTED to go all-in, by God did he ever. He's had a laundry list of legendary matches. And some wrestlers can get by with having a long list of solid matches; this is where I put people like Jericho, Rock (outside of the Austin trilogy), Edge (outside TLC), Bryan's WWE run (wasn't watching RoH), etc. But I've always felt to be in the GOAT conversation, you need to have...not a LONG list of flat-out legendary matches, but a good handful they (or someone advocating for them) can go "Nobody else could make THAT match work THAT well". And Shawn has a good amount of those; Ironman with Bret, Mind Games with Mankind is criminally underrated, his duo with Taker at WM 25 and 26, his matches with Cena at WM 23 and Raw shortly after were the best Cena matches I saw for several years until Money in the Bank against Punk. I'm sure there's plenty more I'm missing.
As for him over Bret, Bret had a shred more in-ring ability, but Shawn had enough promo skills and personality to close the gap (and this coming from someone who thinks wanting a feud "just for the build/promos" is an awful reason to want a feud). Not only that, I think the years and the sympathy for Bret over Montreal have kindof faded. The aura around that whole thing was once "Bret was totally professional and got f***ed over for being professional and doing the right thing". Lo and behold, through both his own bitterness and multiple other accounts, it's pretty much accepted that while he wasn't the main antagonist of the whole thing, he wasn't totally innocent, in the right, or professional himself. Bret and Shawn both, in different ways (but often the same reasons once you broke it down) were difficult to work with. So I always throw that part of it out, and just go "combine the in-ring product, promo work/personalty, and what do you have?" And all respect to Bret, I think he's Top 10 all time. But I think a legit argument could be made for Shawn at #1, and I'm not sure about that with Bret.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Dec 30, 2017 17:11:13 GMT -5
When they were in the same company at the same time, Bret Hart had a much better body of work.
Shawn Michaels came into his own in the mid-90s but his piss poor attitude soured that.
That being said, in his renaissance run in the millennium, he bettered anything Bret Hart had done. But it’s a shame, as who knows what a healthy Bret Hart would have done in the same time period.
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ASYLUMHAUSEN
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Post by ASYLUMHAUSEN on Dec 30, 2017 17:13:10 GMT -5
In-ring pyschology Charisma inside and out of the ring His ability to tell virtually any story through simple body language The ability to go from jokey to serious in an instant and have it actually be believable His swag His willingness to flex for the gram at all times For my money, HBK is the GOAT and nobody really comes close outside of Eddie Guerrero. This. Like, he did that KFC thing and I wasn’t even mad. You gotta have legit swag to be able to pull that off... |
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Post by abjordans on Dec 30, 2017 17:13:44 GMT -5
I’ll just echo what everyone else has said in that HBK at his best was the best in-ring performer I’ve ever seen. The psychology of his matches was incredible and he made you suspend your disbelief and feel like you were watching a real, legitimate athletic competition better than anyone. AJ Styles has that quality too. He’s the closest thing to Shawn I’ve ever seen. That’s my Wrestlemania dream match. You just know that even now, in his 50s, Shawn would tear the house down working with a guy like AJ. AJ Styles is so damn good, I think that he has entered into the GOAT conversation. |
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Post by abjordans on Dec 30, 2017 17:15:11 GMT -5
When they were in the same company at the same time, Bret Hart had a much better body of work. Shawn Michaels came into his own in the mid-90s but his piss poor attitude soured that. That being said, in his renaissance run in the millennium, he bettered anything Bret Hart had done. But it’s a shame, as who knows what a healthy Bret Hart would have done in the same time period. Bret was winding down anyway, he had been in the business about a decade longer than HBK. |
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Dec 30, 2017 17:17:30 GMT -5
When they were in the same company at the same time, Bret Hart had a much better body of work. Shawn Michaels came into his own in the mid-90s but his piss poor attitude soured that. That being said, in his renaissance run in the millennium, he bettered anything Bret Hart had done. But it’s a shame, as who knows what a healthy Bret Hart would have done in the same time period. Bret was winding down anyway, he had been in the business about a decade longer than HBK. True, but he's written on his desire to have locked up with Angle and Lesnar during their first runs. Could have got a fantastic couple of years out of Bret. |
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Dec 30, 2017 17:18:43 GMT -5
Savage too you can make a case for as well. But everyone always says Michaels is the best. Savage had a great run for 5 or so years but Michaels performed at an elite level from 1992-2010 (save those 4 years he was out obviously). You're vastly underselling Savage now. His Memphis work is stellar, and he has some of the best matches of the decade in the 80s and 90s in WWF, and then in WCW had some all-time classics with DDP. |
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ASYLUMHAUSEN
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Post by ASYLUMHAUSEN on Dec 30, 2017 17:19:11 GMT -5
When they were in the same company at the same time, Bret Hart had a much better body of work. Shawn Michaels came into his own in the mid-90s but his piss poor attitude soured that. That being said, in his renaissance run in the millennium, he bettered anything Bret Hart had done. But it’s a shame, as who knows what a healthy Bret Hart would have done in the same time period. Not to be contrarian but I gotta be honest... I’ve been watching wrestling for something like 33 years...and outside of the Mania 13 match, the iron man match & Montreal I cant think of a single memorable Bret Hart moment. But Shawn? Christ...i’d be here all day typing. But still; Undertaker match 1 Undertaker match 2 Montreal “Who’s your daddy, Montreal?!” promo Ladder Match with Razor Barber Shop Window Iron Man Match with Bret Iron Man Match with Cena THAT Superkick (poor Shelton) Hell In A Cell Every single second of the original DX run up to Mania 14 |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Dec 30, 2017 17:22:14 GMT -5
Bret, Bryan, and Angle all one way or another suffered the major failing of not being able to retire properly. Injuries and/or poor return runs kept them from going out on top. Shawn got to spend years on top in a veteran role and prove he belonged there before having one of the greatest send-offs to ever take place in a WWE ring, and I think being able to hang in your late 40s and put on great matches is a huge part of being able to keep that kind of position in the eyes of the fans. To be able to adapt to your slowing down style and keep working great matches. It's what Jericho is doing to a lesser extent right now, and he's another GOAT contender. There's no denying Bret, Bryan, and Angle were possibly the best wrestlers in the world at points in their careers, but their careers were lacking in a certain special something, hampered by what-ifs or botched runs that diminished their legacy, Bret in his post-stroke, post-concussion return run in WWE, Angle moonsaulting off his hacked twitter account in TNA. Something is lost in there not being a proper, impressive ending to it or in seeing that impressive late career adaptation.
When you talk about the best of all time you need to factor in a lot of hindsight to that, and right now that works against the very much in-his-prime AJ. Let him keep going, have a good retirement angle and cap off his career on a proper note and I think there will be some strong contention.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Dec 30, 2017 17:23:30 GMT -5
When they were in the same company at the same time, Bret Hart had a much better body of work. Shawn Michaels came into his own in the mid-90s but his piss poor attitude soured that. That being said, in his renaissance run in the millennium, he bettered anything Bret Hart had done. But it’s a shame, as who knows what a healthy Bret Hart would have done in the same time period. Not to be contrarian but I gotta be honest... I’ve been watching wrestling for something like 33 years...and outside of the Mania 13 match, the iron man match & Montreal I cant think of a single memorable Bret Hart moment. But Shawn? Christ...i’d be here all day typing. But still; Undertaker match 1 Undertaker match 2 Montreal “Who’s your daddy, Montreal?!” promo Ladder Match with Razor Barber Shop Window Iron Man Match with Bret Iron Man Match with Cena THAT Superkick (poor Shelton) Hell In A Cell Every single second of the original DX run up to Mania 14 Bret Hart vs British Bulldog Summerslam 92 Hart Foundation vs Bulldogs rivalry Owen Hart cage match The best opening match ever at Wrestlemania (10) Hart vs Undertaker in 1997 Hart vs Diesel was progressive for its time Hart vs Hakushi for something alternative He also brought the ladder match to WWE List goes on. |
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Dec 30, 2017 17:26:37 GMT -5
Not to be contrarian but I gotta be honest... I’ve been watching wrestling for something like 33 years...and outside of the Mania 13 match, the iron man match & Montreal I cant think of a single memorable Bret Hart moment. But Shawn? Christ...i’d be here all day typing. But still; Undertaker match 1 Undertaker match 2 Montreal “Who’s your daddy, Montreal?!” promo Ladder Match with Razor Barber Shop Window Iron Man Match with Bret Iron Man Match with Cena THAT Superkick (poor Shelton) Hell In A Cell Every single second of the original DX run up to Mania 14 Bret Hart vs British Bulldog Summerslam 92 Hart Foundation vs Bulldogs rivalry Owen Hart cage match The best opening match ever at Wrestlemania (10) Hart vs Undertaker in 1997 Hart vs Diesel was progressive for its time Hart vs Hakushi for something alternative He also brought the ladder match to WWE List goes on. Add in Bret vs. Piper stealing the show at 'Mania VIII out from under Savage and Flair, and the Survivor Series 1996 match with Austin which I, to this day, argue is better than the Mania XIII match. |
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ASYLUMHAUSEN
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Post by ASYLUMHAUSEN on Dec 30, 2017 17:32:33 GMT -5
Not to be contrarian but I gotta be honest... I’ve been watching wrestling for something like 33 years...and outside of the Mania 13 match, the iron man match & Montreal I cant think of a single memorable Bret Hart moment. But Shawn? Christ...i’d be here all day typing. But still; Undertaker match 1 Undertaker match 2 Montreal “Who’s your daddy, Montreal?!” promo Ladder Match with Razor Barber Shop Window Iron Man Match with Bret Iron Man Match with Cena THAT Superkick (poor Shelton) Hell In A Cell Every single second of the original DX run up to Mania 14 Bret Hart vs British Bulldog Summerslam 92 Hart Foundation vs Bulldogs rivalry Owen Hart cage match The best opening match ever at Wrestlemania (10) Hart vs Undertaker in 1997 Hart vs Diesel was progressive for its time Hart vs Hakushi for something alternative He also brought the ladder match to WWE List goes on. I wasn’t trying to imply Bret didn’t have moments...I was just saying outside of what I listed nothing immediately came to mind. All the things you listed, yeah i’m Familiar with (and even a fan of) them. I was just saying for me to come up with those i’d Have to stop & think and probably write them down so i’d remember them to post them. |
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Dec 30, 2017 17:40:40 GMT -5
Bret Hart vs British Bulldog Summerslam 92 Hart Foundation vs Bulldogs rivalry Owen Hart cage match The best opening match ever at Wrestlemania (10) Hart vs Undertaker in 1997 Hart vs Diesel was progressive for its time Hart vs Hakushi for something alternative He also brought the ladder match to WWE List goes on. Add in Bret vs. Piper stealing the show at 'Mania VIII out from under Savage and Flair, and the Survivor Series 1996 match with Austin which I, to this day, argue is better than the Mania XIII match. Yeah, definitely agree on the Austin match. |
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Dec 30, 2017 17:44:24 GMT -5
Bret Hart vs British Bulldog Summerslam 92 Hart Foundation vs Bulldogs rivalry Owen Hart cage match The best opening match ever at Wrestlemania (10) Hart vs Undertaker in 1997 Hart vs Diesel was progressive for its time Hart vs Hakushi for something alternative He also brought the ladder match to WWE List goes on. I wasn’t trying to imply Bret didn’t have moments...I was just saying outside of what I listed nothing immediately came to mind. All the things you listed, yeah i’m Familiar with (and even a fan of) them. I was just saying for me to come up with those i’d Have to stop & think and probably write them down so i’d remember them to post them. Totally get it. Bret's best output is further back in history than Shawn's, and Bret is also unfortunately remembered more for Montreal and the personal tragedies and injuries more than his time in the limelight. |
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