Why is HBK considered the best ever by a lot of fans?

[schma]

With someone like Bret there were a few unfortunate moments that really affected his overall stuff. His fallout with WWE and later bitterness, being underutilized with WCW as they didn't seem to really know what to do with him and wasted a white hot debut, and finally the injury that ended his career. HBK had the benefit of losing his smile at about the right time so he could go out on top, then returning at about the right time to have people lose their mind over it and forget about the BS he put so many through in his first run. That said, without the second run he likely wouldn't be seen on anywhere near the level he is now. The fact that he stayed healthy through his second run helped a lot, especially since it started just after Bret had his injury.

I'm not taking anything from Shawn, he is one of the greatest. However, the stars did align somewhat better for him than many others like (as mentioned above) Bret, Daniel, Kurt and numerous others.

[Yacht Persona]

The only "bad" match I remember Shawn having is versus Austin at 'Mania 14 where both were beat to shit with injuries and very limited in what they could do. Months prior, they had a clinic at KOTR.

But yes, Shawn could have amazing matches with practically anyone, including lumps like Sid and Kevin Nash. That's a rare ability that only the cream of the crop can lay claim--your AJ Styleses, your Randy Savages. I also can't remember any Michaels match that was the same as another. Every match he had on television or PPV was different.

[angryfan]

Dec 30, 2017 18:04:34 GMT -5 Yacht Persona said:

The only "bad" match I remember Shawn having is versus Austin at 'Mania 14 where both were beat to shit with injuries and very limited in what they could do. Months prior, they had a clinic at KOTR.

But yes, Shawn could have amazing matches with practically anyone, including lumps like Sid and Kevin Nash. That's a rare ability that only the cream of the crop can lay claim--your AJ Styleses, your Randy Savages. I also can't remember any Michaels match that was the same as another. Every match he had on television or PPV was different.

I agree, but I'd at this caveat. Shawn could and did have great matches, unless he either was asked to job or especially drop a title pre-injury. Then, he'd either go cartoon with the overselling, pout through his his entrance and half-ass it to make the other guy look like shit, or just not show up and "vacate" the title.

Again, as a worker, when he wanted to, he was better than anyone. But for a long time, he only wanted to be that if he was going over.

[The Thread Barbi]

Dec 30, 2017 18:04:34 GMT -5 Yacht Persona said:

The only "bad" match I remember Shawn having is versus Austin at 'Mania 14 where both were beat to shit with injuries and very limited in what they could do. Months prior, they had a clinic at KOTR.

But yes, Shawn could have amazing matches with practically anyone, including lumps like Sid and Kevin Nash. That's a rare ability that only the cream of the crop can lay claim--your AJ Styleses, your Randy Savages. I also can't remember any Michaels match that was the same as another. Every match he had on television or PPV was different.

I remember Shawn Michaels vs El Madator being a bland opener to a superb Wrestlemania, so beg to disagree.
During the 90s, he was hit or miss until he hit his stride in 96.

Bret Hart was definitely the trail blazer with Shawn Michaels hot on his heels during that time.

[BatPunk]

There are 3 guys that comes to mind when I think of GOAT.

HBK
Angle
AJ Styles

Just for their body of work, all three are amazing and can make anyone look amazing on any given night and have the most entertaining match on any card, win or lose, heel or face, absolute, undeniable stars.

Next level, I see Hitman, Eddie and Jericho.

[cabbageboy]

I think Shawn's various political antics in the 1990s preclude him from being considered for something like this. Keep in mind that this stuff did at times extend into the ring. He'd throw tantrums in the ring, loudly call spots to show up opponents (witness the Shamrock DX PPV match), and generally was a dick. The thing is though, this wasn't stuff he did later on to hold his spot. It wasn't a punk rookie lashing out. This was his prime.

And yes, there are quite a few great HBK matches. But let's not kid ourselves here. As an aerial wrestler he was always marginal, with stuff that looked dated and passe right as he was on the way out in 1998 if you want to compare his athleticism to someone like Rob Van Dam or various cruiser guys of that era in WCW. If you want you can add to it some nonexistent psychology (the kip up deal could wreck a whole match of back work for instance) that is not to be found in Bret's work.

As a character though I will say his heel work from right after Summerslam 1997 until WM 14 might be the greatest heel work of all time.

[Kevin Hamilton]

99-03 Angle has got to be somewhere in the conversation. He was brilliant at everything.

[Johnny]

He's a masterful storyteller in the ring. Though not the best ever.

He's a tremendous athlete. Though not the best ever.

He understands psychology. Though not the best ever.

He's a good promo. Though not the best ever.

But you know what he is the best EVER at?

The one natural ability that he appears to have been born with: Timing.

I think his timing just makes his in ring work look so smooth and effortless, it has enabled him to stretch himself in other directions, and not worry about what move comes next. When other performers are looking to add a new move to their set, or come up with a new catchphrase, Michaels was looking for new stories to tell.

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2017 16:26:47 GMT -5 Jokaine said:

Dec 30, 2017 15:27:55 GMT -5 @kn said:

I love HBK and all but I want someone to break this down with examples. I'm not denying it, I actually think it might be true but we need someone to explain why he's so good and use that comparison with others because this isn't the first time it's been brought up. It's like the "Jay-Z is the GOAT" thing. Yeah Jay might be the greatest and people do say that but in the barbershop you need someone to break it down and explain why because you've got other comparisons coming from the woodworks. We need to know why rather than having blanket statement.

I'll take a shot, but let me start by saying this is all subjective shit. If a person lists Michael Hayes as the best in-ring worker ever and Dean Malenko as the best stick guy because that's who entertained him the most, there's no arguing that down because it's an opinion.

All that said, I feel safe calling HBK the best in-ring guy ever. Following reasons:

1) Catalogue.

He's had as many classic matches as pretty much anybody in the business.

2) Diversity of classic opponents/match styles.

HBK has had all-timers with Scott Hall, Mankind, Bret Hart, Undertaker, Triple H, etc. Those are all great wrestlers, but all are different types of wrestlers. Michaels could work with anybody in any kind of a match and deliver. Most others have some kind of opponent or match in which they would struggle.

3) Length of run.

This might be what sets HBK apart from most. My five favorite matches from Michaels include a tag match against a fat guy from 1986 and a match against the Undertaker from 2010. For a pro wrestler to have bookends like that is crazy.

4) Innovative.

He put the ladder match on a big stage. He put he iron man match on a big stage. He put Hell in a Cell on a big stage. He put the elimination chamber on a big stage.

It's as if every time a new gimmick match was created the thought was to give it to HBK and let him lay out the blueprint.

After laying out those points, I guess the Jay argument could be similar in a couple areas.

Jay's early stuff was incredible. In fact, the argument could be made that the only hiccups in his catalogue from Reasonable Doubt through the Black Album was when he insisted on using a bunch of guest appearances. That's a lot of music to drop without any wack shit.

He was innovative in the sense he didn't write shit down but actually sounded like he did. He also had a grasp of wordplay that was well in-front of most of his peers.

Finally, much like HBK, a lot has to be said for his longevity. 4:44 is, in my opinion, one of his top 4 releases. That's pretty strong considering it's 21 years after his debut.

This pretty much sums it up. I would also add the HBK was in the WWE for pretty much his whole career. So all his matches were on the biggest stage possible. Angle and Styles also had a lot of great matches, but a good portion of them were in front of small crowds with low TV ratings/PPV buys. I think HBK gets bonus points for performing in a situation with more pressure.

[joey joe joe junior shabadoo]

Dec 30, 2017 16:37:16 GMT -5 @kn said:

Dec 30, 2017 16:26:47 GMT -5 Jokaine said:

I'll take a shot, but let me start by saying this is all subjective shit. If a person lists Michael Hayes as the best in-ring worker ever and Dean Malenko as the best stick guy because that's who entertained him the most, there's no arguing that down because it's an opinion.

All that said, I feel safe calling HBK the best in-ring guy ever. Following reasons:

1) Catalogue.

He's had as many classic matches as pretty much anybody in the business.

2) Diversity of classic opponents/match styles.

HBK has had all-timers with Scott Hall, Mankind, Bret Hart, Undertaker, Triple H, etc. Those are all great wrestlers, but all are different types of wrestlers. Michaels could work with anybody in any kind of a match and deliver. Most others have some kind of opponent or match in which they would struggle.

3) Length of run.

This might be what sets HBK apart from most. My five favorite matches from Michaels include a tag match against a fat guy from 1986 and a match against the Undertaker from 2010. For a pro wrestler to have bookends like that is crazy.

4) Innovative.

He put the ladder match on a big stage. He put he iron man match on a big stage. He put Hell in a Cell on a big stage. He put the elimination chamber on a big stage.

It's as if every time a new gimmick match was created the thought was to give it to HBK and let him lay out the blueprint.

After laying out those points, I guess the Jay argument could be similar in a couple areas.

Jay's early stuff was incredible. In fact, the argument could be made that the only hiccups in his catalogue from Reasonable Doubt through the Black Album was when he insisted on using a bunch of guest appearances. That's a lot of music to drop without any wack shit.

He was innovative in the sense he didn't write shit down but actually sounded like he did. He also had a grasp of wordplay that was well in-front of most of his peers.

Finally, much like HBK, a lot has to be said for his longevity. 4:44 is, in my opinion, one of his top 4 releases. That's pretty strong considering it's 21 years after his debut.

Great response. This is what I was talking about. When you read it like this it's hard to think of anyone who comes close to him. Not just being the GOAT but straight up comes close.

As for Jay I agree with you although I'm having a hard time deciding which is better, 4:44 or American Gangster. Still I consider both of them classics but that's just me.

Nas is the GOAT

[Tea & Crumpets]

Shawn is definitely a contender, but for me, it's Jericho.

HBK's a great worker- so's Jericho. Athletic, dynamic, great storyteller, long body of great matches (including obviously their Mania match), Jericho may not have had quite as many CLASSICS as HBK, but he's also never done the HBK temper tantrum bullshit.

Promos- I actually think Jericho's the better talker. Both are ultra charismatic but Jericho's promos always got the job done better for me.

Look- they both looked a million dollars in their prime, BUT aging Shawn still calling himself Sexy Boy with a bald spot and strabismus didn't really fit, while Jericho has changed his look up to always keep himself legit.

Innovation- Shawn pioneered the ladder match and made the Ironman match. But Jericho came up with MITB, was an equal part of making the Elimination Chamber match, and has been STAGGERINGLY good at reinventing himself on a level I don't think anybody can match. Face, heel, Jericho constantly reinvents himself with a new gimmick, look and presence. Shawn, for better or worse, was always the same Shawn, just with a different level of dickishness depending on face or heel.

Jericho's attitude wins out over Shawn by a country mile too. If he hadn't been so on-off since 2005 due to his outside projects and had been going full time to the same level he was at, I think it'd be pretty hard to dispute that Jericho's the best ever.

[Jokaine]

Dec 30, 2017 18:57:11 GMT -5 cabbageboy said:

I think Shawn's various political antics in the 1990s preclude him from being considered for something like this. Keep in mind that this stuff did at times extend into the ring. He'd throw tantrums in the ring, loudly call spots to show up opponents (witness the Shamrock DX PPV match), and generally was a dick. The thing is though, this wasn't stuff he did later on to hold his spot. It wasn't a punk rookie lashing out. This was his prime.

And yes, there are quite a few great HBK matches. But let's not kid ourselves here. As an aerial wrestler he was always marginal, with stuff that looked dated and passe right as he was on the way out in 1998 if you want to compare his athleticism to someone like Rob Van Dam or various cruiser guys of that era in WCW. If you want you can add to it some nonexistent psychology (the kip up deal could wreck a whole match of back work for instance) that is not to be found in Bret's work.

As a character though I will say his heel work from right after Summerslam 1997 until WM 14 might be the greatest heel work of all time.

Point one: Politics.

If you're going to say backstage politics should preclude HBK from being number one, I assume you disqualify Bret Hart from the conversation,too. After all, it was Bret's refusal to do his job in 1997 that led to the entire Montreal Screwjob. Further, the first thing he did when he got to WCW was use his backstage pull to get his two washed up brothers-in-law jobs.

Point two: Athleticism.

No argument that his aerial stuff was not as earth-shattering as some of WCW's cruiserweights. On the other hand, I don't think you could argue that Silver King or Psychosis was capable of telling a story or getting crowds invested at the same level of HBK.

Point three: Psychology.

You say the kip-up as being a match-wrecker due to lack of believability.

I say I've watched Jeff Fenech knock out someone in a real boxing match despite breaking both hands in the early rounds of the fight.

I watched Arturo Gatti score knockouts in real fights despite having a broken nose and two nearly-closed eyes.

Adrenaline is a real thing and it does amazing things. I always chalked up things like the kip-up to it and actually feel it a testament to his ring psychology not proof of a lack of it.

[repomark]

I think a lot of the thread has been dedicated to who was better between HBK and Bret rather than who was he best of all time, which shows how inexorably linked the two are. I loved both, and would always list him in my top 5 of all time. However, Shawn I think was just that little bit better.

Listing HBK’s best matches alone I think proves the point; it is really hard to condense it to a short list. Off the top of my head:

First run:
Rockers vs Brainbusters
Rockers vs Twin Towers - WM5
Rockers vs Orient Express - Royal Rumble 91
Rockers vs Haku & Barbarian - WM7
vs Ric Flair (pre Rockers breakup)
vs Bulldog - Saturday Nights Main Event Nov 92; KOR96
vs Bret Hart - Ladder match; Survivor Series 92; Iron Man WM12; Survivor Series 97
vs Razor Ramon - Ladder Matches at WM10 & Summerslam 95
Royal Rumble match 95 & 96 (arguably)
vs Diesel - WM11; In Your House Good Friends Better Enemies
vs Jeff Jarrett - In Your House
with Diesel vs I23 Kid & Razor Ramon - Raw
vs Owen - In Your House
vs Vader - Summerslam 96
vs Mankind - In Your House Mind Games
with Austin vs Owen & Bulldog
vs Undertaker - Ground Zero; Bad Blood Hell in a Cell and Royal Rumble 98
vs Austin - KOR 97 & WM14

Second run:
vs Triple H - Summerslam 02; Armageddon 02; Royal Rumble 04 & Bad Blood Hell in a Cell
Elimination Chamber - Survivor Series 02
vs Chris Jericho - WM19; Street Fight & Ladder Match 08
Survivor Series 03 Team Austin vs Team Bischoff
vs Tripe H vs Chris Benoit - WM20 & Backlash 04
vs Shelton Benjamin - Goldrush tournament
vs Kurt Angle - WM21 & Vengeance 05
vs Hulk Hogan - Summerslam 05
vs Vince McMahon - WM22
DX vs Vince & Shane McMahon - Summerslam 06
DX vs Legacy
Royal Rumble Match 2007
vs John Cena - WM23 & Raw In London
vs John Cena vs Edge vs Randy Orton - Backlash 07(I think)
vs Ric Flair - WM24
vs Batista - Stretcher Match
vs Randy Orton - where he couldn’t use sweet chin music
vs Undertaker - WM25 & 26

I know I have forgotten some as well, but if I can list that many of his matches that rank between good and classic then it speaks volumes for the body of work he created.

[KofiMania]

Dec 30, 2017 19:57:43 GMT -5 Tea & Crumpets said:

Shawn is definitely a contender, but for me, it's Jericho.

HBK's a great worker- so's Jericho. Athletic, dynamic, great storyteller, long body of great matches (including obviously their Mania match), Jericho may not have had quite as many CLASSICS as HBK, but he's also never done the HBK temper tantrum bullshit.

Promos- I actually think Jericho's the better talker. Both are ultra charismatic but Jericho's promos always got the job done better for me.

Look- they both looked a million dollars in their prime, BUT aging Shawn still calling himself Sexy Boy with a bald spot and strabismus didn't really fit, while Jericho has changed his look up to always keep himself legit.

Innovation- Shawn pioneered the ladder match and made the Ironman match. But Jericho came up with MITB, was an equal part of making the Elimination Chamber match, and has been STAGGERINGLY good at reinventing himself on a level I don't think anybody can match. Face, heel, Jericho constantly reinvents himself with a new gimmick, look and presence. Shawn, for better or worse, was always the same Shawn, just with a different level of dickishness depending on face or heel.

Jericho's attitude wins out over Shawn by a country mile too. If he hadn't been so on-off since 2005 due to his outside projects and had been going full time to the same level he was at, I think it'd be pretty hard to dispute that Jericho's the best ever.

I don't think Jericho is anywhere near HBK in terms of in-ring work/storytelling.

[Jokaine]

Dec 30, 2017 16:37:16 GMT -5 @kn said:

Dec 30, 2017 16:26:47 GMT -5 Jokaine said:

I'll take a shot, but let me start by saying this is all subjective shit. If a person lists Michael Hayes as the best in-ring worker ever and Dean Malenko as the best stick guy because that's who entertained him the most, there's no arguing that down because it's an opinion.

All that said, I feel safe calling HBK the best in-ring guy ever. Following reasons:

1) Catalogue.

He's had as many classic matches as pretty much anybody in the business.

2) Diversity of classic opponents/match styles.

HBK has had all-timers with Scott Hall, Mankind, Bret Hart, Undertaker, Triple H, etc. Those are all great wrestlers, but all are different types of wrestlers. Michaels could work with anybody in any kind of a match and deliver. Most others have some kind of opponent or match in which they would struggle.

3) Length of run.

This might be what sets HBK apart from most. My five favorite matches from Michaels include a tag match against a fat guy from 1986 and a match against the Undertaker from 2010. For a pro wrestler to have bookends like that is crazy.

4) Innovative.

He put the ladder match on a big stage. He put he iron man match on a big stage. He put Hell in a Cell on a big stage. He put the elimination chamber on a big stage.

It's as if every time a new gimmick match was created the thought was to give it to HBK and let him lay out the blueprint.

After laying out those points, I guess the Jay argument could be similar in a couple areas.

Jay's early stuff was incredible. In fact, the argument could be made that the only hiccups in his catalogue from Reasonable Doubt through the Black Album was when he insisted on using a bunch of guest appearances. That's a lot of music to drop without any wack shit.

He was innovative in the sense he didn't write shit down but actually sounded like he did. He also had a grasp of wordplay that was well in-front of most of his peers.

Finally, much like HBK, a lot has to be said for his longevity. 4:44 is, in my opinion, one of his top 4 releases. That's pretty strong considering it's 21 years after his debut.

Great response. This is what I was talking about. When you read it like this it's hard to think of anyone who comes close to him. Not just being the GOAT but straight up comes close.

As for Jay I agree with you although I'm having a hard time deciding which is better, 4:44 or American Gangster. Still I consider both of them classics but that's just me.

American Gangster is a great album, too. I've seen Jay three times in concert and I can say, without hesitation, he's the best live MC I have ever seen.

Leaving the last show, I commented to my wife about the incredible level of his catalogue.

To put it in perspective, Reasonable Doubt is a certifiable classic. I could go watch him in concert tomorrow and get as good a show as anyone could throw even if he didn't perform a single song from that album. Seriously, not one cut and I'm still leaving feeling like I got my money's worth.

There is no one else in hip-hop that could do that,especially not charging the kind of money Jay can for tickets.

[Jokaine]

Dec 30, 2017 19:41:56 GMT -5 joey joe joe junior shabadoo said:

Dec 30, 2017 16:37:16 GMT -5 @kn said:

Great response. This is what I was talking about. When you read it like this it's hard to think of anyone who comes close to him. Not just being the GOAT but straight up comes close.

As for Jay I agree with you although I'm having a hard time deciding which is better, 4:44 or American Gangster. Still I consider both of them classics but that's just me.

Nas is the GOAT

Nas has some bangers, but I couldn't put him above any of the following guys:

Jay
Face
Rakim
Eminem
2Pac
Andre 3000
Ice Cube (this is based off his work before the War and Peace joints)

There are a bunch of others I would put on the same level but I would argue all day those 7 above him.

[2coldMack is even more baffled]

I've seen people mention the King of The Ring 97 match with Austin here a couple times.....am I watching a different match? That match is really, really dull, aside from the fan that jumps the barricade.

[Deleted]

I don't know if he's the greatest, but he's definitely gotta at least be in the top 5 (maybe even top 3). He's in so many of my favorite matches of all time it's ridiculous.

[xxshoyuweeniexx]

Dec 30, 2017 17:02:14 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

In-ring pyschology
Charisma inside and out of the ring
His ability to tell virtually any story through simple body language
The ability to go from jokey to serious in an instant and have it actually be believable
His swag
His willingness to flex for the gram at all times

For my money, HBK is the GOAT and nobody really comes close outside of Eddie Guerrero.

I agree. Honestly only Eddie, Macho Man, and Ric Flair are in that same category of GOATs when it comes to all of the key areas that make a great superstar (mic skills, ring work, charisma, and diversity).

[Allie Kitsune]

Because Shawn could make EVERY moment feel huge.