Who wins in a real fight in their prime - Haku vs. Brock

[Joe Neglia]

Jan 6, 2018 22:43:29 GMT -5 OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 said:

Jan 6, 2018 22:16:21 GMT -5 Joe Neglia said:

Haku was working legit professional martial arts competitions at the age of 15, and had already risen to the third highest division (out of six ranking divisions) in sumo by the next year. It's not like he's just some strong bumpkin who fell off a truck one day. He'd get the hang of modern MMA pretty quick.

You're saying that Haku only knew sumo? How would that transfered to mma? As far as I know Sumo is only contested while standing up. How many months would it take Haku to learn how to stop a takedown from an NCAA champion?

Sumo is a powerful combat discipline but as far as I know they don't teach how to sprawl. Once the fight gets to the ground is another story. Haku would need to learn not only how to stop takedowns but also jiu jitsu to know how to fight from his back and get back up to his feet so Brock doesn't basketball his head. That doesn't take months it takes years.

I'm honestly not sure what else Haku trained in. I know Barbarian, who trained at the same time, learned jiu jitsu while part of it, so I have to imagine Haku was trained in it as well.

One thing that absolutely has to be taken into consideration is Haku's freak-strong nature. Brock may very well basketball his head, but if Haku isn't feeling it (at least at the time) and has the ability to lift and toss a 300 pounder like he's a child, that's a very dangerous combination for anyone fighting him, even if they manage to get him on the ground (and keep in mind that one of the major parts of sumo training isn't so much striking but rather throwing and not letting the other guy physically work you into being thrown - a lot of the avoiding takedowns stuff would be part of his sumo training already).

There's certainly a lot of intangibles and what ifs on this particular scenario. Brock being one of the best amateurs ever, being abnormally strong yet being something of a glass jaw in ways, Haku not having the luxury of modern training but having enough to get him further than someone his size and age should have been back then, and being freak-strong with almost zero pain reception...obviously, it's not a question we can ever have a truly satisfactory answer for. That said, I still personally think a prime Haku would win. I can absolutely see the arguments against it, but I feel there's enough there that I have to give him the edge.

[adamclark52]

Haku

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

Jan 6, 2018 23:13:01 GMT -5 Joe Neglia said:

Jan 6, 2018 22:43:29 GMT -5 OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 said:

You're saying that Haku only knew sumo? How would that transfered to mma? As far as I know Sumo is only contested while standing up. How many months would it take Haku to learn how to stop a takedown from an NCAA champion?

Sumo is a powerful combat discipline but as far as I know they don't teach how to sprawl. Once the fight gets to the ground is another story. Haku would need to learn not only how to stop takedowns but also jiu jitsu to know how to fight from his back and get back up to his feet so Brock doesn't basketball his head. That doesn't take months it takes years.

I'm honestly not sure what else Haku trained in. I know Barbarian, who trained at the same time, learned jiu jitsu while part of it, so I have to imagine Haku was trained in it as well.

One thing that absolutely has to be taken into consideration is Haku's freak-strong nature. Brock may very well basketball his head, but if Haku isn't feeling it (at least at the time) and has the ability to lift and toss a 300 pounder like he's a child, that's a very dangerous combination for anyone fighting him, even if they manage to get him on the ground (and keep in mind that one of the major parts of sumo training isn't so much striking but rather throwing and not letting the other guy physically work you into being thrown - a lot of the avoiding takedowns stuff would be part of his sumo training already).

There's certainly a lot of intangibles and what ifs on this particular scenario. Brock being one of the best amateurs ever, being abnormally strong yet being something of a glass jaw in ways, Haku not having the luxury of modern training but having enough to get him further than someone his size and age should have been back then, and being freak-strong with almost zero pain reception...obviously, it's not a question we can ever have a truly satisfactory answer for. That said, I still personally think a prime Haku would win. I can absolutely see the arguments against it, but I feel there's enough there that I have to give him the edge.

Ok Brock Lesnar trained in Brazilian jiu jitsu under Rodrigo Medeiros, that discipline teaches you how to position and maneuver your body so in case you're on top, the opponent can't push you off. When the technique is done correctly your opponent will actually get tired by trying to push you off from him. Keep in mind that he's working not only against your weight but against gravity. Brock Lesnar with this knowledge was able to pin down opponents who couldn't get up.
Watch his second fight against Frank Mir in UFC 100. Frank Mir is about the size of Haku and a more experienced grappler.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was developed in order to use the strength of your opponent against him.

A sumo only fighter actually fought in UFC 1, and his throwing prowess didn't work, he lost his front teeth with a kick. Brock has a great double leg takedown, the only way to counter a double leg is by sprawling on the floor.

It doesn't matter how impervious to pain Haku is. Your body eventually shuts down. Check out Brock Lesnar against Shane Carwin. With technique, a double leg and then transitioning from Carwin's half guard, Brock used an arm triangle choke and almost put the guy to sleep.

Is Haku a more powerful man than Brock Lesnar yes. But Brock has technique and mastered martial arts that take the fight to the floor, while Haku doesn't.

The fight would go like when Randy Couture faced Ludwig Borga. One takedown then it's over.

[Joe Neglia]

Jan 6, 2018 23:56:40 GMT -5 OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 said:

Jan 6, 2018 23:13:01 GMT -5 Joe Neglia said:

I'm honestly not sure what else Haku trained in. I know Barbarian, who trained at the same time, learned jiu jitsu while part of it, so I have to imagine Haku was trained in it as well.

One thing that absolutely has to be taken into consideration is Haku's freak-strong nature. Brock may very well basketball his head, but if Haku isn't feeling it (at least at the time) and has the ability to lift and toss a 300 pounder like he's a child, that's a very dangerous combination for anyone fighting him, even if they manage to get him on the ground (and keep in mind that one of the major parts of sumo training isn't so much striking but rather throwing and not letting the other guy physically work you into being thrown - a lot of the avoiding takedowns stuff would be part of his sumo training already).

There's certainly a lot of intangibles and what ifs on this particular scenario. Brock being one of the best amateurs ever, being abnormally strong yet being something of a glass jaw in ways, Haku not having the luxury of modern training but having enough to get him further than someone his size and age should have been back then, and being freak-strong with almost zero pain reception...obviously, it's not a question we can ever have a truly satisfactory answer for. That said, I still personally think a prime Haku would win. I can absolutely see the arguments against it, but I feel there's enough there that I have to give him the edge.

Ok Brock Lesnar trained in Brazilian jiu jitsu under Rodrigo Medeiros, that discipline teaches you how to position and maneuver your body so in case you're on top, the opponent can't push you off. When the technique is done correctly your opponent will actually get tired by trying to push you off from him. Keep in mind that he's working not only against your weight but against gravity. Brock Lesnar with this knowledge was able to pin down opponents who couldn't get up.
Watch his second fight against Frank Mir in UFC 100. Frank Mir is about the size of Haku and a more experienced grappler.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was developed in order to use the strength of your opponent against him.

A sumo only fighter actually fought in UFC 1, and his throwing prowess didn't work, he lost his front teeth with a kick. Brock has a great double leg takedown, the only way to counter a double leg is by sprawling on the floor.

It doesn't matter how impervious to pain Haku is. Your body eventually shuts down. Check out Brock Lesnar against Shane Carwin. With technique, a double leg and then transitioning from Carwin's half guard, Brock used an arm triangle choke and almost put the guy to sleep.

Is Haku a more powerful man than Brock Lesnar yes. But Brock has technique and mastered martial arts that take the fight to the floor, while Haku doesn't.

The fight would go like when Randy Couture faced Ludwig Borga. One takedown then it's over.

Very good points. I'm just not sure I can agree with it all. The biggest intangibles we have in this debate are lack of knowledge/footage of just how trained Haku is/was, and without seeing it, it's hard to speculate with any real degree of accuracy. I will concede this much - if anyone in modern MMA stood a chance with Haku, it would be Lesnar.

One thing I will say, though - had Haku been born later, was the exact same guy he is but started training for MMA at an early age instead of Sumo, there would be no question which one would take this. As it is, we're going to debate this forever

[Tiger Millionaire]

How did people ever learn to fight before the advent and expansion of Mixed Martial Arts?

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

We should get a time machine to settle this.

Brock vs Haku on the main event.

But before that on the undercard, let's put prime Honky Tonk Man and prime Shawn Michaels on a real fight to see who's the least toughest guy of all time. Joey Styles will be the announcer, "CATFIGHT! CATFIGHT!".

[The Ichi]

Jan 7, 2018 0:17:30 GMT -5 Tiger Millionaire said:

How did people ever learn to fight before the advent and expansion of Mixed Martial Arts?

I know you're trying to be dismissive, but Brock didn't just know Mixed Martial Arts, he was the champion. Like, even giving the benefit of the doubt that Haku did totally pwn some drunk guys and studied martial arts himself, you're talking about him taking on a guy that dominated the sport, has recorded proof of himself dominating the sport, and did so as a rookie.

Who knows, Haku might have won, but you can see why people cling to proven, recorded statistics rather than carnie folklore, right?

[Tiger Millionaire]

Jan 7, 2018 12:19:04 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

Jan 7, 2018 0:17:30 GMT -5 Tiger Millionaire said:

How did people ever learn to fight before the advent and expansion of Mixed Martial Arts?

I know you're trying to be dismissive, but Brock didn't just know Mixed Martial Arts, he was the champion. Like, even giving the benefit of the doubt that Haku did totally pwn some drunk guys and studied martial arts himself, you're talking about him taking on a guy that dominated the sport, has recorded proof of himself dominating the sport, and did so as a rookie.

Who knows, Haku might have won, but you can see why people cling to proven, recorded statistics rather than carnie folklore, right?

Sorry I know I came across ham handed; and I am not dismissing anyone who says Brock; just the general argument I see constantly that since Brock was successful in MMA, he's some kind of Terminator Killing Machine.

[Kevin Dunn]

Didn’t Andre back down from haku back in the day? Andre never backed down from Brock. Advantage haku

[Crappler El 0 M]

I'd give the edge to Brock do to his size, wrestling ability, and modern MMA experience. Brock's a freak.

["Playboy" Don Douglas]

Jan 8, 2018 0:10:12 GMT -5 Kevin Dunn said:

Didn’t Andre back down from haku back in the day? Andre never backed down from Brock. Advantage haku

I only remember hearing that they got along quite well, hence their pairing as The Colossal Connection. They weren't about to put Andre with someone he didn't like.

[tms]

I think Haku's strength is GROSSLY underrated. Probably because he was a heel for the majority of his career and didn't have many chances to show off what he was capable of against larger opponents (as the majority of faces he went up against were smaller than him). Still, look at how damn easily he picks up, walks around with, and plants Big John Studd here:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OkdrvojMYc

Dude was just a physical freak. Incredible strength and agility.

[HMARK Center]

Perry Saturn is all about the Tonga Train

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONuqq_udwC8

Obviously doesn't answer if he could take Lesnar, but that's an Army Ranger saying that.

[Kevin Hamilton]

Jan 7, 2018 23:03:01 GMT -5 Tiger Millionaire said:

Jan 7, 2018 12:19:04 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

I know you're trying to be dismissive, but Brock didn't just know Mixed Martial Arts, he was the champion. Like, even giving the benefit of the doubt that Haku did totally pwn some drunk guys and studied martial arts himself, you're talking about him taking on a guy that dominated the sport, has recorded proof of himself dominating the sport, and did so as a rookie.

Who knows, Haku might have won, but you can see why people cling to proven, recorded statistics rather than carnie folklore, right?

Sorry I know I came across ham handed; and I am not dismissing anyone who says Brock; just the general argument I see constantly that since Brock was successful in MMA, he's some kind of Terminator Killing Machine.

For me it's just: "here's a body of work of a dude fighting vs no visible record of same."
If footage surfaces of Haku obliterating dudes, I'd vote him. As is, I can only go by what I've actually seen happen.

[Deleted]

Whenever this question comes up, I find myself more interested in these two terrors competing in other contests.

Who's the better cook: Brock or Meng?
Who knows more about the X-Men? Which of them knows more French words? Who's the better drawer? Who would I want to team up with to face Shelton Benjamin and the Barbarian in a game of team Scrabble?

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

Jan 8, 2018 0:10:12 GMT -5 Kevin Dunn said:

Didn’t Andre back down from haku back in the day? Andre never backed down from Brock. Advantage haku

Nah you're talking about Bad News Allen. Andre called him the n word, News called him out and told him to fight, Andre bitched out.

[Joe Neglia]

Jan 8, 2018 21:14:12 GMT -5 OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 said:

Jan 8, 2018 0:10:12 GMT -5 Kevin Dunn said:

Didn’t Andre back down from haku back in the day? Andre never backed down from Brock. Advantage haku

Nah you're talking about Bad News Allen. Andre called him the n word, News called him out and told him to fight, Andre bitched out.

For whatever it's worth, Heenan has said that Haku was one of only two people Andre was legit scared of (the other being Harley Race). Interestingly, they're also the only two that tossed Andre around the ring without his full cooperation.

[Crappler El 0 M]

for all the talk of Haku's strength, let's not forget Brock's freaky strength, speed, and explosiveness. There's a legend of Brock and Shelton Benjamin racing each other through an empty arena and Brock held his own. I forget the arena and details, so excuse me if I have some details wrong on that. Also, Brock had no college football experience, yet made an NFL practice squad essentially based on his size, strength, and explosiveness.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2018 0:35:25 GMT -5 Crappler El 0 M said:

for all the talk of Haku's strength, let's not forget Brock's freaky strength, speed, and explosiveness. There's a legend of Brock and Shelton Benjamin racing each other through an empty arena and Brock held his own. I forget the arena and details, so excuse me if I have some details wrong on that. Also, Brock had no college football experience, yet made an NFL practice squad essentially based on his strength and explosiveness.

Doesn't detract from his own physical gifts, but I recall Lesnar saying in an interview once that Kane was the strongest guy in the locker room. They arm wrestled once and Brock couldn't budge him. Found that interesting.