FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,566 
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Post by FinalGwen on Jan 14, 2018 1:03:54 GMT -5
They absolutely were not leaving them alone before the 'invasion'. WWE were getting pissy at them using the 'too sweet' hand gesture and trying to trademark it - despite not having any claim to its invention - in 2015, because they saw even then that the Young Bucks were making money from t-shirt sales. That happened a year before episode 1 of Being The Elite.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jan 14, 2018 1:04:46 GMT -5
WWE didn't do anything to the Elite until they made a video outside of Raw taking potshots at WWE's attendance as part of a publicity stunt. People need to stop acting like Elite were just minding their own business until big bad WWE decided to start picking on them for no reason. They're lucky all they got was a cease and desist letter, I'm pretty sure WWE was actually sued when they did something similar outside of Nitro. People have been asking WWE to stop pretending the rest of the wrestling world doesn't exist. They do just that in a perfectly benign video mentioning another company by name and it's somehow spun as WWE sticking their middle finger at NJPW/Bullet Club. The Elite are some of the biggest workers in the world, doing everything they can to create a us vs them narrative and people are eating it up, perhaps a little too much. This is straight out of the 90s Paul Heyman playbook and he was secretly receiving money from WWE at the time. Hell, do we even know for sure there was an actual cease and desist letter or are we taking the Young Bucks at their word? It believe it was a storyline in Being the Elite before it supposedly happened for real. WWE never got sued or even threatened with legal action over the WCW stunt because there's nothing to sue them over in what they did. The C&D WWE filed was for a hand gesture WWE doesn't actually even own, and they later fired someone for taking a selfie with those people, which goes beyond just 'Oh they poked us let's poke back" doesn't it? People aren't bothered because WWE mentioned Bullet Club, but because they did it after running the group down. "That's what we need, is guys who... And no offense to any of these guys, but we don't need guys going around doing Too Sweets, and we don't need guys acting like they're DX from fifteen years ago. We need guys who are them. [...] We need original superstars. [...] No disrespect to our past, but we're trying to create something new here. [...] We're true to our originality."Two weeks later:  This has so much more to do with people not digging WWE's double-standard bullshit than it has to do with some us vs. them thing the Young Bucks are peddling. WWE's own actions in a vacuum are shitty enough here. |
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Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Jan 14, 2018 1:37:59 GMT -5
Unrelated, but it amuses me that this moment was more over than anything Roman has done since the initial breakup of the Shield. He should be embarrassed that he talks shit and doesn't back it up. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 14, 2018 4:27:11 GMT -5
WWE didn't do anything to the Elite until they made a video outside of Raw taking potshots at WWE's attendance as part of a publicity stunt. People need to stop acting like Elite were just minding their own business until big bad WWE decided to start picking on them for no reason. They're lucky all they got was a cease and desist letter, I'm pretty sure WWE was actually sued when they did something similar outside of Nitro. Because WWE implied that Nitro wasn’t sold out and they were giving comp tickets to people, both of those weren’t true which is pretty much defamation. The reason WWE couldn’t sue or do anything to the Elite was because, well, they weren’t sold out and were giving away comp tickets. They were annoyed that this was out there so instead of actually suing them, especially since it’s widely known attendances are down even saying it in shareholder meetings, they took a shot at something they didn’t even have ownership over to try and weaken them which didn’t work. Also, the video at present has 600k odd views. Most bigger WWE videos beat that. This wasn’t a video being widely watched by the fanbase at the time. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 9:01:26 GMT -5
So WWE is shitty because Roman has an opinion about something? The Club were using the hand gesture on WWE TV before Roman made that comment and before they did anything to The Elite. You seem convinced that Roman is giving a corporate feed line because you want it to be true. As for the C&D, I have a feeling it was actually about them using artwork on their tights and merch that was too similar to this artwork rather than general usage of the hand gesture. It wouldn't be the first time The Young Bucks had to pull merch because it was too similar to something else. Perhaps that's me being convinced of something because I want it to be true but there's a lot of uncertainty about what actually went down and I think people as just defaulting to the idea WWE must be evil. The Young Bucks are never not working, I don't see why it's hard to believe they are exaggerating what happened. |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jan 14, 2018 11:39:19 GMT -5
So WWE is shitty because Roman has an opinion about something? The Club were using the hand gesture on WWE TV before Roman made that comment and before they did anything to The Elite. You seem convinced that Roman is giving a corporate feed line because you want it to be true. As for the C&D, I have a feeling it was actually about them using artwork on their tights and merch that was too similar to this artwork rather than general usage of the hand gesture. It wouldn't be the first time The Young Bucks had to pull merch because it was too similar to something else. Perhaps that's me being convinced of something because I want it to be true but there's a lot of uncertainty about what actually went down and I think people as just defaulting to the idea WWE must be evil. The Young Bucks are never not working, I don't see why it's hard to believe they are exaggerating what happened. I'm convinced Roman is giving a corporate fed line because he veered off in the interview from talking up Braun Strowman and his rivalry to very specifically start taking digs at guys he's never worked with in very specific ways, and I really don't think it's unreasonable or paranoid to think WWE might be feeding lines given how much media work they have their guys do. No company sends people out to do media work and not feed them lines, because unless they're on like the Steve Austin show the media work is at least partially promotional in nature, and they've What I see is Roman making some pretty big leaps to tow a very specific company line less than a week after WWE took legal action against those same very specific people. You can have your feeling but like, all of wrestling media reported on this C&D, with Meltzer having sources in the Bucks' camp and WWE, and all reports are that the invasion stunt made Vince way angrier than expected and he wanted to hit back hard. Something later supported by the whole Jimmy Jacobs fiasco which had zero to do with merchandise. I don't see people "defaulting to the idea WWE must be evil", I see you taking this vague hunch not really rooted in anything that somehow the situation isn't what everybody says the situation is, and that because of that everyone is making unreasonable bad faith assumptions. But all anyone can go by is what people have said and what's been done, and the trail of bread crumbs leads up to a narrative for a lot of people of "WWE lashed out against the Young Bucks a few months ago and ran them down a bunch, then Bullet Club shirts topped out Hot Topic's bestselling 2017 shirts list and now they're trying to do Bullet Club". You say there's a lot of uncertainty about what went down but you're the first person I've seen say that, and the story all seems pretty plainly laid out to everyone else. Like if you want to jump to conclusions to assume the best out of WWE on gut hunches then go right on ahead, but that doesn't mean everyone else is assuming the worst in bad faith. |
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Post by Mr PONYMANIA Mr Jenzie on Jan 14, 2018 12:15:15 GMT -5
and anyone notice the "too sweet" kiss on the united states title by shinsuke this week?  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 12:18:24 GMT -5
You say there's a lot of uncertainty about what went down but you're the first person I've seen say that, and the story all seems pretty plainly laid out to everyone else. Like if you want to jump to conclusions to assume the best out of WWE on gut hunches then go right on ahead, but that doesn't mean everyone else is assuming the worst in bad faith. When I see people conveniently not mentioning the Elite firing the first shot, convinced anything bad said by WWE wrestlers must be a corporate fed line and ignoring that taking pictures with your buddies as they're doing a publicity stunt at your company's expense would get you fired from most places, then yeah I think there's reason to believe people may be assuming the worst not in the best of faith. WWE is so furious with anything Bullet Club related that after the Jacobs incident, AJ Styles posted new pictures of himself with Bullet Club, made a video plugging Fale's school and then WWE put the World title on him a few weeks later. Then they made a tasteful video mentioning Bullet Club and New Japan by name. If WWE ignores the rest of the wrestling world, people complain about that. If they acknowledge the connection that The Club had that originated elsewhere, then people claim they are only doing so to rub it in everybody's face that those guys now work for WWE. Sounds like a lose/lose situation to me. |
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Post by corndog on Jan 14, 2018 12:35:16 GMT -5
WWE didn't do anything to the Elite until they made a video outside of Raw taking potshots at WWE's attendance as part of a publicity stunt. People need to stop acting like Elite were just minding their own business until big bad WWE decided to start picking on them for no reason. They're lucky all they got was a cease and desist letter, I'm pretty sure WWE was actually sued when they did something similar outside of Nitro. People have been asking WWE to stop pretending the rest of the wrestling world doesn't exist. They do just that in a perfectly benign video mentioning another company by name and it's somehow spun as WWE sticking their middle finger at NJPW/Bullet Club. The Elite are some of the biggest workers in the world, doing everything they can to create a us vs them narrative and people are eating it up, perhaps a little too much. This is straight out of the 90s Paul Heyman playbook and he was secretly receiving money from WWE at the time. Hell, do we even know for sure there was an actual cease and desist letter or are we taking the Young Bucks at their word? It believe it was a storyline in Being the Elite before it supposedly happened for real. Not really... at all. Not saying the Elite didn't "poke the bear", but the C&D stuff was before the "invasion". They also aren't the only victims. In fact the "invasion" didn't cause any new legal action from WWE, they just fired their own writer in Jimmy Jacobs because he took a picture with them, not that he seemed to care. The whole thing has escalated more because of the Bullet Club/Elite's merchandises success than the Young Bucks just being silly and antagonizing WWE. Hot Topic asking the WWE for Bullet Club merch at Wrestlemania caused more harm than any episode of "Being the Elite". As far as WWE getting sued for their WCW invasion, don't remember that at all. WWE sued WCW right after the original Outsiders angle, because they were using "WWF trademarks", even though they called Scott Hall and Kevin Nash by their real names. |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jan 14, 2018 12:35:26 GMT -5
You say there's a lot of uncertainty about what went down but you're the first person I've seen say that, and the story all seems pretty plainly laid out to everyone else. Like if you want to jump to conclusions to assume the best out of WWE on gut hunches then go right on ahead, but that doesn't mean everyone else is assuming the worst in bad faith. When I see people conveniently not mentioning the Elite firing the first shot, convinced anything bad said by WWE wrestlers must be a corporate fed line and ignoring that taking pictures with your buddies as they're doing a publicity stunt at your company's expense would get you fired from most places, then yeah I think there's reason to believe people may be assuming the worst not in the best of faith. WWE is so furious with anything Bullet Club related that after the Jacobs incident, AJ Styles posted new pictures of himself with Bullet Club, made a video plugging Fale's school and then WWE put the World title on him a few weeks later. Then they made a tasteful video mentioning Bullet Club and New Japan by name. If WWE ignores the rest of the wrestling world, people complain about that. If they acknowledge the connection that The Club had that originated elsewhere, then people claim they are only doing so to rub it in everybody's face that those guys now work for WWE. Sounds like a lose/lose situation to me. Nobody needs reminding that the Being the Elite thing was the first 'shot' as it were; it's just not relevant to looking at WWE's own actions and the internal logic therein. Nobody is outraged about this on the behalf of those poor downtrodden millionaires who WWE wants to destroy. Taking a picture outside of your workplace with anyone would not get you fired; nobody is ignoring that, that was argued to death in the Jimmy Jacobs thread and the general tone in there was one where people thought it was bullshit and not a valid reason to fire anybody, so again nobody is ignoring that, they're coming at it from an angle of thinking that's bullshit. And hey about the whole "Oh why do people complain about them not acknowledging other wrestling but then complaining like they do". Let me tell you about how different people have different opinions and how lumping an entire community of diverse thought into one hive mind who complain about both sides and are thus hypocrites who just want to complain, regardless of whether the people involved actually have complained about both sides of that, is like. A bad thing. And as off the mark as you can get. Which is my cue to walk on this discussion because that's as big a red flag a point as you can get. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 14, 2018 12:37:14 GMT -5
When I see people conveniently not mentioning the Elite firing the first shot, convinced anything bad said by WWE wrestlers must be a corporate fed line and ignoring that taking pictures with your buddies as they're doing a publicity stunt at your company's expense would get you fired from most places, then yeah I think there's reason to believe people may be assuming the worst not in the best of faith. The only thing the Elite did wrong was mention the ticket sales. I probably wouldn’t have done that but outside of that, all they did was the same thing WWF did in the Attitude Era which, again, was worse because they IMPLIED that Nitro didn’t sell out when it did which, again, is defamation and they could have been sued easily. Even then, again, it’s widely known that sales of events are down because they’ve said that themselves. It wasn’t a first shot as much as it was a parody for a dumb storyline. Hey, I have no problem with WWE mentioning people’s past works. I encourage it because it makes WWE seem like the peak instead of the only company around and makes more stories that could be told in storylines and such. BUT The fact that they were suddenly willing to achnowledge Bullet Club stuff directly after they started to grow more mainstream attention (sports news talking about The Elite and Wrestle Kingdom 12) and success (being the No 4 brand sold on Hot Topic all year isn’t something to sneeze at) is absolutely fine to do...but doing it in such petty ways it both comes off as trying to grab attention and cashing off their success can be called out on because...it’s not hidden. It’s blatantly obvious why they’re doing it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 13:12:43 GMT -5
The fact that they were suddenly willing to achnowledge Bullet Club stuff directly after they started to grow more mainstream attention (sports news talking about The Elite and Wrestle Kingdom 12) and success (being the No 4 brand sold on Hot Topic all year isn’t something to sneeze at) is absolutely fine to do...but doing it in such petty ways it both comes off as trying to grab attention and cashing off their success can be called out on because...it’s not hidden. It’s blatantly obvious why they’re doing it. WWE was acknowledging it directly back in early/mid 2016 as well, before Being the Elite launched and before they were selling anything in Hot Topic. Are WWE's motivations actually blatantly obvious or are people just too sensitive about something completely benign? There has been a lot of fan demand for a Balor Club stable for 2 years and many thought it was a mistake to split up the Styles/Anderson/Gallows version of the stable. So WWE pulls the trigger on a Balor version the stable and the response here is that the only reason they're doing it is to stick it to the Elite/Bullet Club/NJPW. And hey about the whole "Oh why do people complain about them not acknowledging other wrestling but then complaining like they do". Let me tell you about how different people have different opinions and how lumping an entire community of diverse thought into one hive mind who complain about both sides and are thus hypocrites who just want to complain, regardless of whether the people involved actually have complained about both sides of that, is like. A bad thing. And as off the mark as you can get. Which is my cue to walk on this discussion because that's as big a red flag a point as you can get. I didn't mean to imply it was literally the same people on both sides. The point I was trying to make is that WWE is going to have one subsection or another of the fanbase pissy at them no matter what they do regarding their acknowledgments of Bullet Club/NJPW. That's why I see it as a lose/lose situation. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 14, 2018 13:20:48 GMT -5
The fact that they were suddenly willing to achnowledge Bullet Club stuff directly after they started to grow more mainstream attention (sports news talking about The Elite and Wrestle Kingdom 12) and success (being the No 4 brand sold on Hot Topic all year isn’t something to sneeze at) is absolutely fine to do...but doing it in such petty ways it both comes off as trying to grab attention and cashing off their success can be called out on because...it’s not hidden. It’s blatantly obvious why they’re doing it. WWE was acknowledging it directly back in early/mid 2016 as well, before Being the Elite launched and before they were selling anything in Hot Topic. Are WWE's motivations actually blatantly obvious or are people just too sensitive about something completely benign? There has been a lot of fan demand for a Balor Club stable for 2 years and many thought it was a mistake to split up the Styles/Anderson/Gallows version of the stable. So WWE pulls the trigger on a Balor version the stable and the response here is that the only reason they're doing it is to stick it to the Elite/Bullet Club/NJPW. Honestly, it’s a really substantial coincidence that the Bullet Club gets as much acknowledgement as it did this year, finding out what we know about what they sold etc and all of a sudden they decide “Yeah, this Balor Club thing we barely teased or did anything with, NOW we’re going to do it! It’s the right time even though there were much earlier times to do it. Here’s a reason why they’re doing it; It’s the in thing in wrestling. WWE want a piece of that pie. It’s not bad per say but they’re cashing in on success without actually cashing in. That’s the reason they’re doing it now, especially since The Club were doing nothing before this point and they had no idea what to do with Balor for a longer while than his overness deserved. |
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Post by abjordans on Jan 14, 2018 13:35:05 GMT -5
...But, read the thread. The reasons really are “because WWE is doing it”. "The WWE are trying to profit off of the goodwill built up towards something created outside of their company, while simultaneously attacking and suing those who have made it a global brand name, all in a desperate attempt to either bury or consume anything that exists outside of their bubble" is a very different statement to "I'd love it, but it's WWE therefore it sucks." Who cares if it iwas created outside of the company, they have the guy who created it. He has as much of a right to it as anyone. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 14, 2018 13:46:35 GMT -5
"The WWE are trying to profit off of the goodwill built up towards something created outside of their company, while simultaneously attacking and suing those who have made it a global brand name, all in a desperate attempt to either bury or consume anything that exists outside of their bubble" is a very different statement to "I'd love it, but it's WWE therefore it sucks." Who cares if it iwas created outside of the company, they have the guy who created it. He has as much of a right to it as anyone. That’s absolutely not how it works at all. |
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Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Jan 14, 2018 13:47:47 GMT -5
"The WWE are trying to profit off of the goodwill built up towards something created outside of their company, while simultaneously attacking and suing those who have made it a global brand name, all in a desperate attempt to either bury or consume anything that exists outside of their bubble" is a very different statement to "I'd love it, but it's WWE therefore it sucks." Who cares if it iwas created outside of the company, they have the guy who created it. He has as much of a right to it as anyone. Yeah, no. That's not how that works. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 13:55:25 GMT -5
WWE was acknowledging it directly back in early/mid 2016 as well, before Being the Elite launched and before they were selling anything in Hot Topic. Are WWE's motivations actually blatantly obvious or are people just too sensitive about something completely benign? There has been a lot of fan demand for a Balor Club stable for 2 years and many thought it was a mistake to split up the Styles/Anderson/Gallows version of the stable. So WWE pulls the trigger on a Balor version the stable and the response here is that the only reason they're doing it is to stick it to the Elite/Bullet Club/NJPW. Honestly, it’s a really substantial coincidence that the Bullet Club gets as much acknowledgement as it did this year, finding out what we know about what they sold etc and all of a sudden they decide “Yeah, this Balor Club thing we barely teased or did anything with, NOW we’re going to do it! It’s the right time even though there were much earlier times to do it. Here’s a reason why they’re doing it; It’s the in thing in wrestling. WWE want a piece of that pie. It’s not bad per say but they’re cashing in on success without actually cashing in. That’s the reason they’re doing it now, especially since The Club were doing nothing before this point and they had no idea what to do with Balor for a longer while than his overness deserved. Ok, but is this all really reek of desperation as it was painted as in this topic? Or was it more "hey, this three midcarders are spinning their wheels and we know throwing them together will catch people's attention, especially after seeing the reaction to the Balor/Styles match." I just think people need to get over this idea that a C&D that may have been over a copyright issue and not a trademark for all we know and firing Jacobs over something that would have gotten him fired from most places (and reportedly more of a "last straw" for him) doesn't mean that everything WWE does related to Bullet/Balor Club must be an attempt to mess with the Elite/NJPW. |
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 14, 2018 13:59:12 GMT -5
 YOU'RE WELCOME He's just a plump big poppa pump His peaks are mounds of pillowy mashed po-tay-toes. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 14, 2018 14:00:29 GMT -5
Honestly, it’s a really substantial coincidence that the Bullet Club gets as much acknowledgement as it did this year, finding out what we know about what they sold etc and all of a sudden they decide “Yeah, this Balor Club thing we barely teased or did anything with, NOW we’re going to do it! It’s the right time even though there were much earlier times to do it. Here’s a reason why they’re doing it; It’s the in thing in wrestling. WWE want a piece of that pie. It’s not bad per say but they’re cashing in on success without actually cashing in. That’s the reason they’re doing it now, especially since The Club were doing nothing before this point and they had no idea what to do with Balor for a longer while than his overness deserved. Ok, but is this all really reek of desperation as it was painted as in this topic? Or was it more "hey, this three midcarders are spinning their wheels and we know throwing them together will catch people's attention, especially after seeing the reaction to the Balor/Styles match." Their reaction to Balor/Styles was “Feed Balor to Kane”. By that logic, that makes it more likely to me this was cashing in on Bullet Club. If it was over either copyright or trademark, it’d still be a petty thing to do because they own neither thing. And can you name me a company that in their social media policy, something WWE does not have, that would have you fired having a picture with an employee for another company? Because I have never seen that happen and I worked for a large entertainment company that did not have that as a rule. |
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,566
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Post by FinalGwen on Jan 14, 2018 14:04:50 GMT -5
"The WWE are trying to profit off of the goodwill built up towards something created outside of their company, while simultaneously attacking and suing those who have made it a global brand name, all in a desperate attempt to either bury or consume anything that exists outside of their bubble" is a very different statement to "I'd love it, but it's WWE therefore it sucks." Who cares if it iwas created outside of the company, they have the guy who created it. He has as much of a right to it as anyone. Which is, of course, why WWE said "Yes, please, Dudley Boyz. You created this gimmick in ECW, you are the ones who innovated it, please call yourself Bubba Ray and D'von Dudley in TNA." (And let's ignore that even that working by WWE's own rules and history they have zero rights to the gimmick which is 100% owned by NJPW hence why they get the bulk of the money from Bullet Club tshirt sales, half the original members of the Bullet Club are still working in NJPW.) |
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