adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139 
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Post by adamclark52 on Apr 1, 2018 17:27:23 GMT -5
I’m gonna defend the guys. Did they mean to grab that flag in particular? Or did he grab the first flag or choking device he saw waving around beside him? Did they acknowledge it afterwards or throw it back in the crowd without looking at it? Did they take it further? I saw it happen all the time in ECW where the crowd was waving weapons and whatnot around when things got crazy and the wrestlers were completely oblivious to it. In the heat of the moment and with adrenaline running I don’t think wrestlers are fully aware of what’s going on outside the ring and sometimes just grab what’s in front of them. I know the Briscoes are shady characters and legit idiots but maybe it could have been any item?
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,954 
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Apr 1, 2018 17:30:17 GMT -5
Because of that dissipation, for a homosexual character being the equivalent of an evil foreign heel, it would have to be be less someone who is "just" a homosexual and more someone who outright says every straight or bisexual person in the crowd is inherently evil for not being gay. I don't think you can even get away with that. It's not something that LGBT audiences (or even Progressive, Social-Activist audiences) want to see, and will be inherently turned off by. |
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Apr 1, 2018 17:34:55 GMT -5
Because of that dissipation, for a homosexual character being the equivalent of an evil foreign heel, it would have to be be less someone who is "just" a homosexual and more someone who outright says every straight or bisexual person in the crowd is inherently evil for not being gay. I don't think you can even get away with that. It's not something that LGBT audiences (or even Progressive, Social-Activist audiences) want to see, and will be inherently turned off by. I know you could NEVER get away with that as a character, that's not the point. My point was, that's the only thing close to an evil foreigner in the current pro wrestling climate. |
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 122,296
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 1, 2018 17:37:33 GMT -5
What didn't Elgin Do? Long story short (and I know I'm getting some details wrong): Had an affair with one of his trainees. Said trainee told him one of his other students had raped her. He told her to go screw, in so many words. He also said he planned on deliberately screwing his tag team partners future booking in Japan for uh... reasons? There are probably some others who know the story better than I do and I'm definitely forgetting some details. He also told the trainee he was in an open marriage. Whether or not that's true, I don't know, but it doesn't come across as honest on his part, but a lie to make the trainee boinking easier. |
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 122,296
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 1, 2018 17:41:14 GMT -5
I’m gonna defend the guys. Did they mean to grab that flag in particular? Or did he grab the first flag or choking device he saw waving around beside him? Did they acknowledge it afterwards or throw it back in the crowd without looking at it? Did they take it further? I saw it happen all the time in ECW where the crowd was waving weapons and whatnot around when things got crazy and the wrestlers were completely oblivious to it. In the heat of the moment and with adrenaline running I don’t think wrestlers are fully aware of what’s going on outside the ring and sometimes just grab what’s in front of them. I know the Briscoes are shady characters and legit idiots but maybe it could have been any item? Is it possible? Sure, Foley hit Sandman with a cast iron skillet once because he thought he'd been handed a cookie sheet. So, shit happens. Is it plausible? Ehh, it all seems too convenient. These guys, in front of an already hostile crowd, grab this object, which was probably not handed to them, so that takes some of the spur of the moment plausibility out, and it's an object with significance to shit they've pulled in the past. It's possible, but I don't buy it as particularly plausible. Then again, weird shit happens in wrestling. They're douchebags, regardless, so this doesn't really make me dislike them any more than I already did. |
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Apr 1, 2018 17:43:13 GMT -5
Let's be honest too: do you think the Briscoes even know what the LGBT Pride flag looks like or that there even is one?
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 1, 2018 18:37:09 GMT -5
Let's be honest too: do you think the Briscoes even know what the LGBT Pride flag looks like or that there even is one? Considering they're assholes, not morons, Yeah I do. |
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Post by froggyfrog on Apr 1, 2018 19:17:24 GMT -5
I guess I don’t see how using that flag to choke someone is homophobic? Like if they grabbed the Union Jack would you say they’re anti-British? Obviously with Jay’s previous comments they should’ve known better than to even get involved in something like that again, but tbh I think there’s a lot of overreacting in this thread.
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Post by The Captain on Apr 1, 2018 20:16:55 GMT -5
You answered your own question. It's homophobic in the context of at least one of the Briscoe brothers being unabashedly homophobic.
If it was someone with a more progressive attitude towards the LGBT+ community or someone that's a part of it, you could make a better argument in favor of plausible deniability. But given the Briscoes' history... c'mon man.
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Post by BD Punk AKA SUSPENDED! on Apr 1, 2018 21:31:07 GMT -5
"The Delaware Senate passed a bill yesterday that allows same sex couples to get married. If that makes you happy, then congratulations!!!!!!
... try and teach my kids that there's nothing wrong with that and I'll f***ing shoot you"
It looks like that was his entire tweet on the subject. I don't have a problem with Jay not being supportive of homosexuality, it's his opinion and he's allowed to raise his kids how he wants. I can't condone threatening to shoot someone because of a difference of opinion though. It's amazing to me how people can judge someone on a few tweets when all they know of them is what they see on tv.
Onto the flag stuff. Did they just use it to choke an opponent? Did they spit on it? Wipe their ass with it? Stomp it?
It's hard to get actual heat these days as a heel, with the death of kayfabe and someone getting upset and wanting to boycott or ban a wrestler or promotion because they did something "offensive"
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Apr 1, 2018 21:37:42 GMT -5
Let's be honest too: do you think the Briscoes even know what the LGBT Pride flag looks like or that there even is one? The pride flag is a rainbow striped flag, which is about the most recognized and well known symbols of the LGBT communities for decades now. |
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,566
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Post by FinalGwen on Apr 1, 2018 21:43:41 GMT -5
"The Delaware Senate passed a bill yesterday that allows same sex couples to get married. If that makes you happy, then congratulations!!!!!! ... try and teach my kids that there's nothing wrong with that and I'll f***ing shoot you" It looks like that was his entire tweet on the subject. I don't have a problem with Jay not being supportive of homosexuality, it's his opinion and he's allowed to raise his kids how he wants. I can't condone threatening to shoot someone because of a difference of opinion though. It's amazing to me how people can judge someone on a few tweets when all they know of them is what they see on tv. Onto the flag stuff. Did they just use it to choke an opponent? Did they spit on it? Wipe their ass with it? Stomp it? It's hard to get actual heat these days as a heel, with the death of kayfabe and someone getting upset and wanting to boycott or ban a wrestler or promotion because they did something "offensive" It's entirely possible to be a heel without being discriminatory to people from marginalised groups who are part of your audience. You don't even have to go outside of ROH to see Cody being a slimy, hateable heel towards a kayfabe gay couple without ever slipping into bigotry, and the result is a compelling storyline for LGBT and straight audiences alike. (And no, it's not just an opinion. 'I don't like strawberry ice cream' is an opinion. 'Gay people getting married is wrong and I will be violent towards anyone who educates otherwise' is something else entirely. It's a clear sign of his backward values. And frankly, his kids deserve better, and so do any LGBT people they may know in the future.) |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 1, 2018 23:06:17 GMT -5
I guess I don’t see how using that flag to choke someone is homophobic? Like if they grabbed the Union Jack would you say they’re anti-British? Obviously with Jay’s previous comments they should’ve known better than to even get involved in something like that again, but tbh I think there’s a lot of overreacting in this thread. No you're getting it backwards; it's "known, proud homophobes grab pride flag and use it in their heeling". They aren't homophobic for doing it, it's a problem specifically because they have views about gay people that involve the threat of violence and their homophobia is what makes people uneasy about what they did. What gets me about the Briscoes is that ROH get a complete pass for keeping them on the payroll and pushing them, knowing full well what Jay is like, when any other promotion would be utterly lambasted on here for it. ROH gets a lot of flak for it on here, but the big, fundamental issue is and will always be that any time you could say "WWE would get hell for it", you're ignoring the reality of WWE having so many more people paying attention to it. WWE's board is the most active one, TNA is a very distant second, and then you have this board with a steep drop off into the combined presence of every other wrestling company, old school wrestling, and MMA. If someone in WWE were to tweet about shooting gay people you can bet it'd be a 30 page thread, with a lot more speaking out against it but also a lot more people saying it's no big deal, heels being heels, overreacting SJWs, etc. You've got only a fraction of people in the conversation here, talking about someone far, far fewer people are even aware of. ROH is a name a lot of people know of but haven't watched much if any of, and if you don't follow ROH you have no frame of reference for who Jay Brisco is and little reason to care or be vocal about a company pushing him to their top title. It's a different world in Wrest, and not just because people are willing to turn a blind eye to ROH. |
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Post by The Captain on Apr 1, 2018 23:57:05 GMT -5
"The Delaware Senate passed a bill yesterday that allows same sex couples to get married. If that makes you happy, then congratulations!!!!!! ... try and teach my kids that there's nothing wrong with that and I'll f***ing shoot you" It looks like that was his entire tweet on the subject. I don't have a problem with Jay not being supportive of homosexuality, it's his opinion and he's allowed to raise his kids how he wants. I can't condone threatening to shoot someone because of a difference of opinion though. It's amazing to me how people can judge someone on a few tweets when all they know of them is what they see on tv. Onto the flag stuff. Did they just use it to choke an opponent? Did they spit on it? Wipe their ass with it? Stomp it? It's hard to get actual heat these days as a heel, with the death of kayfabe and someone getting upset and wanting to boycott or ban a wrestler or promotion because they did something "offensive" Well, yeah, I'll judge the hell out of someone whose reactionary response to someone telling their kids "hey, gay people are allowed to live their lives like anyone else and that's a good thing" is "I'll f***ing shoot you." f*** them. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 0:08:51 GMT -5
In fairness everyone seems to take it out on both of them but I don't know if Mark Briscoe has any public displays of awfulness to his name.
As wrestlers the Briscoes are favorites of mine for the fact that you don't know where the act stops and the human beings start but even if whoever used the flag as a weapon was just working, he should be smart enough to know that should be off limits after Jay's boneheaded tweet. Like, that could've ended Jay's career the first time so why even play around with it anymore?
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Post by JTG on Apr 2, 2018 0:12:43 GMT -5
I think the OP is way, way too sensitive.
It's just a heel stunt. Your flag isn't a protected flag, it's a flag like the others. Please stop with this lame shit about homophobia. Grabbing a gay flag to choke an opponent isn't homophobic in any way, it's just cheap heel tactics.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,335
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Post by chazraps on Apr 2, 2018 0:33:13 GMT -5
I guess I don’t see how using that flag to choke someone is homophobic? Like if they grabbed the Union Jack would you say they’re anti-British? Obviously with Jay’s previous comments they should’ve known better than to even get involved in something like that again, but tbh I think there’s a lot of overreacting in this thread. That's exactly why it's a big deal, and rightfully so. The Briscoes should have been making a conscious effort to not invoke the LGBTQ community in any way for the rest of their careers, and they failed to do so. |
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
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Post by chazraps on Apr 2, 2018 0:34:36 GMT -5
I think the OP is way, way too sensitive. It's just a heel stunt. Your flag isn't a protected flag, it's a flag like the others. Please stop with this lame shit about homophobia. Grabbing a gay flag to choke an opponent isn't homophobic in any way, it's just cheap heel tactics. It's homophobic when the person in question has made without hyperbole perhaps the most vitriolic homophobic statements in the history of the medium. If it were anyone else doing it, it wouldn't be an issue. But being it's the Briscoes, it's a legit point of contention. |
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,335
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Post by chazraps on Apr 2, 2018 0:41:51 GMT -5
"The Delaware Senate passed a bill yesterday that allows same sex couples to get married. If that makes you happy, then congratulations!!!!!! ... try and teach my kids that there's nothing wrong with that and I'll f***ing shoot you" It looks like that was his entire tweet on the subject. I don't have a problem with Jay not being supportive of homosexuality, it's his opinion and he's allowed to raise his kids how he wants. I can't condone threatening to shoot someone because of a difference of opinion though. It's amazing to me how people can judge someone on a few tweets when all they know of them is what they see on tv. Keep in mind, he made these tweets as the face of ROH at a time when the entire company was behind him as a World Champion focal point after being the one to finally topple SCUM. Additionally, when someone tweets something that heinous, it's completely fine to judge them. That's a very beyond-the-norm Tweet, and is rightfully reviled as such. He's talking about shooting people who support condoning other human beings getting their equal rights. Swap "same sex" with "interracial" and see how it reads. It's condoning indoctrinating children in prejudice and hate under the penalty of death. If he would have just had his personal beliefs, that's one thing. He made very public his overt hatred in the worst possible way he could have worded it. |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 2, 2018 1:46:56 GMT -5
I feel like the people who keep "talking in favor" of the Briscoes know exactly why people are pissed at this and are sort of being willingly ignorant. How can you ask why are people up in arms about this and then state the reason why people are pissed in the same sentence.
It really isn't that hard to figure out. Jay for sure and possibly Mark have made some homophobic comments and at the very least offensive comments in the past. They took what is a symbol for gay people and used in a stunt or whatever you want to call it. Does the stunt make them homophobic, no not at all but they do not have the benefit of doubt in their favor and previous comments which have not been backtracked has feelings that will fester up for people when stupid shit like this happens.
So no, they don't deserve a pass and people have a right to be angry with them
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