chrom
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Post by chrom on Apr 18, 2018 14:50:19 GMT -5
“Apu doesn’t ‘offend’ me, he ‘insults’ me...and my community. I’m an adult with bigger things to deal with. My film was meant to tell you to go f*** yourself & discuss why I want you to go **** yourself & how we can prevent future incidents of people wishing others ‘self-f***ery.’”
If your an adult with bigger things to deal with then how's about you act like one instead of acting like a child throwing a tantrum in your response?
Do you need your mother to come change your diaper and give you a juice box to settle you down? Because I think you need one
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Apr 18, 2018 14:57:34 GMT -5
Who voices Apu is besides the point IMO. It's the character that matters which plays up to every stereotype of Indians. Even if an Indian actor was doing the voice, it would still be horrible. I haven't seen the show for 20 years so I have no idea what the character is like anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't been flanderised to hell by now and that his stereotyped traits are worse than ever before. I understand the characterization and problems with it. However the doc does villify Azaria a bit, which I though was unfair because as you said, it doesn't matter who portrays him. Since you haven't watched the show in a long time Apu may be the more well-rounded character on the show. Of all the characters on the show he is the one that hasn't been "flanderized". He went from being a one note background character to being a very in-depth character. Of all the Simpson's characters his has stayed very educated and one of the constant voices of reason on the show. His character, even in new episodes, is a mostly positive character. He displays almost none of the stereotype traits anymore aside from the accent.
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Post by axebomber on Apr 18, 2018 15:01:43 GMT -5
What horrible stereotypes are you referring to? His accent and mannerisms. Such mannerisms. Much horror.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Apr 18, 2018 15:09:03 GMT -5
His accent and mannerisms. Such mannerisms. Much horror. Thing is in recent episodes (the last 20 years) they have gotten away from that. This season there was an episode where the character touched on Xenophobia. The last and really only remaining stereotypical trait of Apu is the accent. After 30 years you can't change the way a character sounds without essentially destroying the character. It would be too much of a shock to see a 30 year old character suddenly change voice. As I posted earlier, his character may be the most well rounded character on the show. If the character is considered offensive just due to the accent the only option is sadly, to kill the character off. I say sadly because he is a well rounded character that has been one of the voices of reason and has also touched upon social issues ("Much Apu about nothing" and "Much Apu about Something"were both really solid episodes dealing with social issues of xenophobia and predjudice/racism). Would be a shame to lose that character as I feel you would lose alot of good the character brought to the table. I think a big problem is that people are only looking at Apu from the early episodes without knowing what the character has evolved into.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 18, 2018 15:11:05 GMT -5
I guess I don't really get the venom coming from the 'opposing' POV. I've got no dog in the fight, but it seems weird to be so adamantly against someone sayin: "I feel X."
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Post by axebomber on Apr 18, 2018 15:15:05 GMT -5
Such mannerisms. Much horror. Thing is in recent episodes (the last 20 years) they have gotten away from that. This season there was an episode where the character touched on Xenophobia. The last and really only remaining stereotypical trait of Apu is the accent. After 30 years you can't change the way a character sounds without essentially destroying the character. It would be too much of a shock to see a 30 year old character suddenly change voice. As I posted earlier, his character may be the most well rounded character on the show. If the character is considered offensive just due to the accent the only option is sadly, to kill the character off. I say sadly because he is a well rounded character that has been one of the voices of reason and has also touched upon social issues ("Much Apu about nothing" and "Much Apu about Something"were both really solid episodes dealing with social issues of xenophobia and predjudice/racism). Would be a shame to lose that character as I feel you would lose alot of good the character brought to the table. I think a big problem is that people are only looking at Apu from the early episodes without knowing what the character has evolved into. I was being sarcastic. I see no problem with Apu. I empathise with Kondalabu because he got picked on but that would have happened regardless of Apu. Maybe theyd call him the kid from Johnny Quest. My last name is only a couple letters off from Mascara. Guess what kids called me in grade school. I might as well make a doc about how that company should have called their product something else.
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Post by axebomber on Apr 18, 2018 15:18:14 GMT -5
I guess I don't really get the venom coming from the 'opposing' POV. I've got no dog in the fight, but it seems weird to be so adamantly against someone sayin: "I feel X." For me it's more about defending 90s Simpsons. That and Seinfeld are the 2 greatest sitcoms of all time. And even I have a problem with the child abuse jokes.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 18, 2018 15:29:29 GMT -5
His accent and mannerisms. Such mannerisms. Much horror. Yes it's a horrible character. Glad you agree,
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 18, 2018 15:31:13 GMT -5
Shouldn't the real issue of bad taste in The Simpsons be making a joke out of child abuse? Apu had an exaggerated accent. Big deal. Alright, please, enough of answers like this. Obviously, to a certain group of people, it is a deal. Maybe or maybe not a big deal, but it's a deal of some kind. Phrasing a response like that is telling them "your concern is meaningless", and this isn't a situation where the vast majority of us are qualified to say what does or does not bear meaning to a specific community. You or I don't have to understand why it has meaning for them, but we can just recognize that it does have some, respect that fact, and communicate and/or deliberate about their concerns respectfully, given the fact that their concerns are hurting literally nobody. If they were advocating for violence, for mistreatment, etc., then I'd get being more wary or dismissive, but there's no reason for that in this situation. As for the earlier point before about letting the free market somehow dictate South Asian depictions in media, that assumes there actually is such a thing as a truly free and equitable market, which there has never, ever been. The idea that a South Asian content creator could have ever gotten the kind of platform the Simpsons creators did in 2018, let alone in 1989, ignores the reality of an industry that values certain backgrounds and perspectives over others, values connections from various comedic or university backgrounds, and generally has never been overly friendly to those who don't fit "the mould" of the predominantly Western/white entertainment industry. Asking to be treated seriously is not a free market issue, it's one of basic humanity.
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Post by axebomber on Apr 18, 2018 15:40:36 GMT -5
Shouldn't the real issue of bad taste in The Simpsons be making a joke out of child abuse? Apu had an exaggerated accent. Big deal. Alright, please, enough of answers like this. Obviously, to a certain group of people, it is a deal. Maybe or maybe not a big deal, but it's a deal of some kind. Phrasing a response like that is telling them "your concern is meaningless", and this isn't a situation where the vast majority of us are qualified to say what does or does not bear meaning to a specific community. You or I don't have to understand why it has meaning for them, but we can just recognize that it does have some, respect that fact, and communicate and/or deliberate about their concerns respectfully, given the fact that their concerns are hurting literally nobody. If they were advocating for violence, for mistreatment, etc., then I'd get being more wary or dismissive, but there's no reason for that in this situation. As for the earlier point before about letting the free market somehow dictate South Asian depictions in media, that assumes there actually is such a thing as a truly free and equitable market, which there has never, ever been. The idea that a South Asian content creator could have ever gotten the kind of platform the Simpsons creators did in 2018, let alone in 1989, ignores the reality of an industry that values certain backgrounds and perspectives over others, values connections from various comedic or university backgrounds, and generally has never been overly friendly to those who don't fit "the mould" of the predominantly Western/white entertainment industry. Asking to be treated seriously is not a free market issue, it's one of basic humanity. In the grand scheme if things their concern is meaningless because it's an animated satire. EVERY character has an exaggerated accent or silly voice. Btw your comments on the entertainment industry are veering dangerously close to anti-Semitism. Just a heads up. Also asking to be treated seriously in an animated satire where nothing is serious is absurd.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Apr 18, 2018 15:44:52 GMT -5
I guess I don't really get the venom coming from the 'opposing' POV. I've got no dog in the fight, but it seems weird to be so adamantly against someone sayin: "I feel X." For me it's more about defending 90s Simpsons. That and Seinfeld are the 2 greatest sitcoms of all time. And even I have a problem with the child abuse jokes. We're not talking about 90s Simpsons though, we're talking about 2018 Simpsons. Same as Tom and Jerry were amazing, but also had blackface jokes. You can like older stuff and realise the context of the time and how if they did the same thing today, it'd suck. Thing is, Simpsons ARE doing the same thing today.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 15:56:06 GMT -5
Johnny Flamingo I didn't see them tackle xenophobia in "Much Apu About Something". It was more about age bashing and how resistant Apu was to adapting for the future. "Nothing", however, remains one of my favorite episodes, especially when Apu's fake American accent falters as he's trying to justify Entertainment Weekly over his Ganesh shrine.
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 18, 2018 16:03:38 GMT -5
Shouldn't the real issue of bad taste in The Simpsons be making a joke out of child abuse? Apu had an exaggerated accent. Big deal. So did Willie. All of the characters are supposed to sound funny. They did whole episodes about Australian, British and Japanese stereotypes. Homer threw the freaking Japanese emperor in a pile of used sumo thongs! But Homer strangling Bart is not cool. That's what they should be getting heat over. There is no way you can make child abuse funny. Simpsons of the last 15 years is insulting to fans of comedy. They really need to put it to bed. It's sadder than watching TNA still be a thing. You know you can discuss one problem without putting down the other
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 18, 2018 16:18:04 GMT -5
Alright, please, enough of answers like this. Obviously, to a certain group of people, it is a deal. Maybe or maybe not a big deal, but it's a deal of some kind. Phrasing a response like that is telling them "your concern is meaningless", and this isn't a situation where the vast majority of us are qualified to say what does or does not bear meaning to a specific community. You or I don't have to understand why it has meaning for them, but we can just recognize that it does have some, respect that fact, and communicate and/or deliberate about their concerns respectfully, given the fact that their concerns are hurting literally nobody. If they were advocating for violence, for mistreatment, etc., then I'd get being more wary or dismissive, but there's no reason for that in this situation. As for the earlier point before about letting the free market somehow dictate South Asian depictions in media, that assumes there actually is such a thing as a truly free and equitable market, which there has never, ever been. The idea that a South Asian content creator could have ever gotten the kind of platform the Simpsons creators did in 2018, let alone in 1989, ignores the reality of an industry that values certain backgrounds and perspectives over others, values connections from various comedic or university backgrounds, and generally has never been overly friendly to those who don't fit "the mould" of the predominantly Western/white entertainment industry. Asking to be treated seriously is not a free market issue, it's one of basic humanity. In the grand scheme if things their concern is meaningless because it's an animated satire. EVERY character has an exaggerated accent or silly voice. Btw your comments on the entertainment industry are veering dangerously close to anti-Semitism. Just a heads up. Also asking to be treated seriously in an animated satire where nothing is serious is absurd. Have a recommendation: stop posting in this thread. You're not here for a serious conversation, so stop posting in it until you're ready for one.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Apr 18, 2018 16:18:44 GMT -5
I guess I don't really get the venom coming from the 'opposing' POV. I've got no dog in the fight, but it seems weird to be so adamantly against someone sayin: "I feel X." These threads always play out the same way. Poster 1: "GOD DAMN OFFENDED BRIGADE AM I RIGHT PEOPLE" *The same 3-4 people furiously click like* Poster 2: "Not offended, but perhaps you should consider *argument*" *Poster 1 acts like he was just victim to a tsunami of insults*
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Apr 18, 2018 16:26:08 GMT -5
Johnny Flamingo I didn't see them tackle xenophobia in "Much Apu About Something". It was more about age bashing and how resistant Apu was to adapting for the future. "Nothing", however, remains one of my favorite episodes, especially when Apu's fake American accent falters as he's trying to justify Entertainment Weekly over his Ganesh shrine. To explain my thinking. Knowing the name of the episode I did go in looking at it as a continuation/extension of that story. In the episode Jay is arguing with Apu and tells him "That's exactly what I'm talking to you about. You're my uncle and I love you, but you're a stereotype, man. Take a penny, leave a penny. I'm Indian, I do yoga. Why don't you go back to the Temple of Doom, Dr. Jones!" and changes the Kwik-E-Mart (stereotypically Indian workers) to a health store (stereotypically white). To me it showed how Apu represented what many feel about Apu and his characterization. He was the exact opposite of his uncle's characterization, even changing his name from Jamshed to Jay. Should also be noted that Jay was played by Indian actor Utkarsh Ambudkar (as compared to Azaria with Apu). I thought it was a representation of how xenophobia leads to characterization of cultures. The name of the episode comes from Much Apu about Nothing. In a continutation of that story, his nephew is trying to go away from that stereotype and losing his "Indian" name to appeal to the more white Springfield, much like how Apu changed his image and name in that episode. Essentially he is changing everything about him to be more white to be more accepted as a minority. Maybe I overthought the episode, but I thought that combined with "Something" that "Nothing" was a good continuation of that episode while also touching on stereotypes. I am a big fan of both episodes.
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Post by darbus alan on Apr 18, 2018 17:43:54 GMT -5
Alright, please, enough of answers like this. Obviously, to a certain group of people, it is a deal. Maybe or maybe not a big deal, but it's a deal of some kind. Phrasing a response like that is telling them "your concern is meaningless", and this isn't a situation where the vast majority of us are qualified to say what does or does not bear meaning to a specific community. You or I don't have to understand why it has meaning for them, but we can just recognize that it does have some, respect that fact, and communicate and/or deliberate about their concerns respectfully, given the fact that their concerns are hurting literally nobody. If they were advocating for violence, for mistreatment, etc., then I'd get being more wary or dismissive, but there's no reason for that in this situation. As for the earlier point before about letting the free market somehow dictate South Asian depictions in media, that assumes there actually is such a thing as a truly free and equitable market, which there has never, ever been. The idea that a South Asian content creator could have ever gotten the kind of platform the Simpsons creators did in 2018, let alone in 1989, ignores the reality of an industry that values certain backgrounds and perspectives over others, values connections from various comedic or university backgrounds, and generally has never been overly friendly to those who don't fit "the mould" of the predominantly Western/white entertainment industry. Asking to be treated seriously is not a free market issue, it's one of basic humanity. In the grand scheme if things their concern is meaningless because it's an animated satire. EVERY character has an exaggerated accent or silly voice. Btw your comments on the entertainment industry are veering dangerously close to anti-Semitism. Just a heads up. Also asking to be treated seriously in an animated satire where nothing is serious is absurd. Don't drag my people into this to satisfy your need to play devil's advocate or whatever.
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Post by axebomber on Apr 18, 2018 17:52:54 GMT -5
In the grand scheme if things their concern is meaningless because it's an animated satire. EVERY character has an exaggerated accent or silly voice. Btw your comments on the entertainment industry are veering dangerously close to anti-Semitism. Just a heads up. Also asking to be treated seriously in an animated satire where nothing is serious is absurd. Don't drag my people into this to satisfy your need to play devil's advocate or whatever. HHHMark is the one conveniently skirting around the creators of the show Sam Simon and James L Brooks as well as Hank Azaria being Jewish by labeling them western/white. I didn't drag anything into it, just stating facts. But I'm not being serious according to him. If I'm not going to be taken seriously then I will leave.
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Post by darbus alan on Apr 18, 2018 17:58:42 GMT -5
Our relation to whiteness in America compared to the rest of the Western world is a very complicated subject. One I don't really feel like getting into right now. None of the people criticizing Apu have done so in a way that criticizes the Simpsons showrunners for being Jewish. We're also prone to our own racial and ethnic blind spots as a people, as are other minorities. Being an ethnic minority doesn't give us a pass on participating in racist attitudes towards other minority populations, whether it's intentional or unintentional.
But yes, please drop it. It's only making you look like a jerk.
BTW, the current main showrunner of The Simpsons, Al Jean, is of Irish background. And not Jewish.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Apr 18, 2018 18:00:33 GMT -5
“Apu doesn’t ‘offend’ me, he ‘insults’ me...and my community. I’m an adult with bigger things to deal with. My film was meant to tell you to go f*** yourself & discuss why I want you to go **** yourself & how we can prevent future incidents of people wishing others ‘self-f***ery.’” If your an adult with bigger things to deal with then how's about you act like one instead of acting like a child throwing a tantrum in your response? Do you need your mother to come change your diaper and give you a juice box to settle you down? Because I think you need one He wasn’t throwing a temper tantrum in that documentary. I felt he had a good reason to be angry, and besides, he’s a comedian. Of course he’s going to exaggerate it.
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