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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 18, 2018 9:11:15 GMT -5
Well, the rich white guy opinion on racism is more often than not "What racism? What are you [insert race/ethnicity] talking about? I don't see any problems here." Which is never a point Maher has ever made. He’s also not anti vaccination, he is anti flu shot and has said so within the last month. I know you didn’t say that, but others have. The whole point of Bill’s monologue was summed up in the line in it “You are tolerating things right now that’ll make you cringe in 25 years”. if Maher has clarified, good. I wasn't even aware of any anti-vax stance, just remember some railings against "big pharma" and such years ago. Glad to hear that may no longer be the case or he's clarified his position as I do like some of his stances.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Apr 18, 2018 10:03:40 GMT -5
Which is never a point Maher has ever made. He’s also not anti vaccination, he is anti flu shot and has said so within the last month. I know you didn’t say that, but others have. The whole point of Bill’s monologue was summed up in the line in it “You are tolerating things right now that’ll make you cringe in 25 years”. if Maher has clarified, good. I wasn't even aware of any anti-vax stance, just remember some railings against "big pharma" and such years ago. Glad to hear that may no longer be the case or he's clarified his position as I do like some of his stances. I think he kind of spoke sloppily because I thought he was antivax too but it was maybe even last week he clarified he wasn’t but certainly was anti flu shot. He does still hate Big Pharma a lot but it’s legitimate reasons to hate them.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Apr 18, 2018 10:16:35 GMT -5
Well, the rich white guy opinion on racism is more often than not "What racism? What are you [insert race/ethnicity] talking about? I don't see any problems here." Which is never a point Maher has ever made. He’s also not anti vaccination, he is anti flu shot and has said so within the last month. I know you didn’t say that, but others have. The whole point of Bill’s monologue was summed up in the line in it “You are tolerating things right now that’ll make you cringe in 25 years”. That is a very true statement. And in 25 years when that happens, we all will have the option of listening to new ideas about the world and adapting or putting up walls, insist our way was already great so we don't need to change. That sentiment is "the world changes" well yeah... it's how you choose to respond to that which matters.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Apr 18, 2018 10:46:05 GMT -5
Which is never a point Maher has ever made. He’s also not anti vaccination, he is anti flu shot and has said so within the last month. I know you didn’t say that, but others have. The whole point of Bill’s monologue was summed up in the line in it “You are tolerating things right now that’ll make you cringe in 25 years”. That is a very true statement. And in 25 years when that happens, we all will have the option of listening to new ideas about the world and adapting or putting up walls, insist our way was already great so we don't need to change. That sentiment is "the world changes" well yeah... it's how you choose to respond to that which matters. And again... this would be different if Apu was from a show that was cancelled 25 years ago... it's not... he is still around and on TV RIGHT NOW.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Apr 18, 2018 11:48:33 GMT -5
As a person who watches The Simpsons and is still a fan of the show (I enjoy the new episodes/seasons)I do feel they could have handled it better.
An issue I do wonder is what they could do about the issue. There was a recent episode "Much Apu about Something" that did address some issues with Apu regarding xenophobia.
I watched the documentary and felt that it did bring up some well thought out points (which is why I was dissapointed in his response (written below).
I thought Hanz Azaria's comments were well thought out:
Which was followed by this response from Hari Kondabolu in a tweet
I have an issue with the way both the show runners and Kondabolu handled this. For the show runners they should have not make a joke about the situation or at least handled it differently. Hank Azaria gave a good response. For Kondabolu you make a documentary and the actor who portrays the character gives a well thought out response and you won't even engage in the conversation that you presented is bad as well. Massive fail on his part for starting a conversation and resorting to insults (and essentially shutting out the people who actually need to hear his message)
The only way to eliminate racism and stereotypes is for open conversation. To me it doesn't seem like Kondabolu wants to have that conversation. He just wanted to say his piece, destroy a character and move on.
Much better ways to handle this all the way around. Open discussion can't happen with insults.
Sadly, what could have led to a very open discussion with profound change has now degenirated into insults. In the end the only thing that I can she possibly happen is Apu getting written off which is a shame as the character had lots of potential after this.
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 18, 2018 11:53:40 GMT -5
if Maher has clarified, good. I wasn't even aware of any anti-vax stance, just remember some railings against "big pharma" and such years ago. Glad to hear that may no longer be the case or he's clarified his position as I do like some of his stances. I think he kind of spoke sloppily because I thought he was antivax too but it was maybe even last week he clarified he wasn’t but certainly was anti flu shot. He does still hate Big Pharma a lot but it’s legitimate reasons to hate them. Eh, Maher's record on medical science is shoddy, at best. Hating Big Pharma is perfectly reasonable, but his stances on flu shots, germ theory, and Western medicine more broadly show an anti-scientific streak in a guy who claims to be thoroughly pro-science. I have very little patience for him on social issues as much of what he says can be condensed down to telling younger people "I protested back in the day better than you do now, so get off my lawn", all while rolling in money and telling others to put up with people he considers friends who just so happen to advocate laws against or violence against certain communities Maher so happens not to belong to. It sucks, I used to be a big fan of his, but he's exactly what he's describing, in terms of being something to look back on and say "Yeesh, can't believe I supported that dude" about.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 12:03:13 GMT -5
I thought Hanz Azaria's comments were well thought out: Which was followed by this response from Hari Kondabolu in a tweet ..........it's very tough to want to understand a side of an argument when it just bluntly tells you (or someone you're more inclined to agree with?) to go f*** yourself instead of trying to engage in conversation and thoughtful debate. It seems like this is how a lot of dialogue in America is going these days and that's really sad.
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Post by axebomber on Apr 18, 2018 12:17:26 GMT -5
Shouldn't the real issue of bad taste in The Simpsons be making a joke out of child abuse? Apu had an exaggerated accent. Big deal. So did Willie. All of the characters are supposed to sound funny. They did whole episodes about Australian, British and Japanese stereotypes. Homer threw the freaking Japanese emperor in a pile of used sumo thongs! But Homer strangling Bart is not cool. That's what they should be getting heat over. There is no way you can make child abuse funny.
Simpsons of the last 15 years is insulting to fans of comedy. They really need to put it to bed. It's sadder than watching TNA still be a thing.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Apr 18, 2018 12:24:52 GMT -5
it's very tough to want to understand a side of an argument when it just bluntly tells you (or someone you're more inclined to agree with?) to go f*** yourself instead of trying to engage in conversation and thoughtful debate. It seems like this is how a lot of dialogue in America is going these days and that's really sad. Agreed. To me that is the most dissapointing thing in all this. He made a good documentary that started a good (and needed) conversation. Then he results to dialogue that kills any meaningful discussion. To me he is not better than the people he is critisizing once he stoops to that level. Simpsons of the last 15 years is insulting to fans of comedy. I disagree. While the show has fallen since its heydey I find many of the newer episodes to be quite good. There are definitely some misses in recent seasons but there have been some really good episodes as well. In particular the Halloween episode where Sideshow Bob kills Bart is one of the better Halloween skits they have ever done.
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Post by darbus alan on Apr 18, 2018 12:30:08 GMT -5
I think he kind of spoke sloppily because I thought he was antivax too but it was maybe even last week he clarified he wasn’t but certainly was anti flu shot. He does still hate Big Pharma a lot but it’s legitimate reasons to hate them. Eh, Maher's record on medical science is shoddy, at best. Hating Big Pharma is perfectly reasonable, but his stances on flu shots, germ theory, and Western medicine more broadly show an anti-scientific streak in a guy who claims to be thoroughly pro-science. I have very little patience for him on social issues as much of what he says can be condensed down to telling younger people "I protested back in the day better than you do now, so get off my lawn", all while rolling in money and telling others to put up with people he considers friends who just so happen to advocate laws against or violence against certain communities Maher so happens not to belong to. It sucks, I used to be a big fan of his, but he's exactly what he's describing, in terms of being something to look back on and say "Yeesh, can't believe I supported that dude" about. Big same. I used to be a fan of Bill Maher's and I still enjoy some of his standup, but a lot of his Real Time episodes boil down to "Look at these stupid young people" anymore when he's not doing politics that comes off as really out-of-touch. He also comes off like a total hypocrite on matters of science and race.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 18, 2018 13:10:38 GMT -5
Eh, Maher's record on medical science is shoddy, at best. Hating Big Pharma is perfectly reasonable, but his stances on flu shots, germ theory, and Western medicine more broadly show an anti-scientific streak in a guy who claims to be thoroughly pro-science. I have very little patience for him on social issues as much of what he says can be condensed down to telling younger people "I protested back in the day better than you do now, so get off my lawn", all while rolling in money and telling others to put up with people he considers friends who just so happen to advocate laws against or violence against certain communities Maher so happens not to belong to. It sucks, I used to be a big fan of his, but he's exactly what he's describing, in terms of being something to look back on and say "Yeesh, can't believe I supported that dude" about. Big same. I used to be a fan of Bill Maher's and I still enjoy some of his standup, but a lot of his Real Time episodes boil down to "Look at these stupid young people" anymore when he's not doing politics that comes off as really out-of-touch. He also comes off like a total hypocrite on matters of science and race. Like when he said the N word on TV one week because he thought it was no big deal and then when everyone got on his ass about it he tried to invite every black scholar/celebrity to "teach him" and show him the error of his ways
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 13:41:05 GMT -5
Hari actually liked one of my tweets on the subject, but my argument was & still is the general dumbing down of characters that have gone on for decades in addition to disregarding both continuity & fan criticism as being assholes instead of just one character. Telling people to go f*** themselves doesn't add credence to your argument if you're trying to explain what it was like in the heyday.
Though, to play devil's advocate, what if someone did want to make a new show, but they don't have an ethnically diverse crew and can't afford to pay multiple voice actors to do ethnic characters? If they want to have minorities, even if they present them as largely bland individuals who don't act like stereotypes but at the same time adhere to their cultures & customs, would people inevitably complain?
And, if they wanted to avoid that & made an all white cast of characters, would they also face a backlash of not being diverse?
There has to be a line somewhere, and it feels like you lose no matter what.
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Post by Fade on Apr 18, 2018 13:44:48 GMT -5
As a person who watches The Simpsons and is still a fan of the show (I enjoy the new episodes/seasons)I do feel they could have handled it better. An issue I do wonder is what they could do about the issue. There was a recent episode "Much Apu about Something" that did address some issues with Apu regarding xenophobia. I watched the documentary and felt that it did bring up some well thought out points (which is why I was dissapointed in his response (written below). I thought Hanz Azaria's comments were well thought out: Which was followed by this response from Hari Kondabolu in a tweet Wow. I'd seen the special advertised a few times on TruTV and humored the idea of watching it but after seeing that, yeah, no, I'm glad I didn't.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Apr 18, 2018 13:56:46 GMT -5
Hari actually liked one of my tweets on the subject, but my argument was & still is the general dumbing down of characters that have gone on for decades in addition to disregarding both continuity & fan criticism as being assholes instead of just one character. Telling people to go f*** themselves doesn't add credence to your argument if you're trying to explain what it was like in the heyday. Though, to play devil's advocate, what if someone did want to make a new show, but they don't have an ethnically diverse crew and can't afford to pay multiple voice actors to do ethnic characters? If they want to have minorities, even if they present them as largely bland individuals who don't act like stereotypes but at the same time adhere to their cultures & customs, would people inevitably complain? And, if they wanted to avoid that & made an all white cast of characters, would they also face a backlash of not being diverse? There has to be a line somewhere, and it feels like you lose no matter what. I get your argument to an extent. I feel like it's up to you as a content producer to set out to try and get as much diverse experience as possible because the experience is out there. I mean, I've never ran a big production but one of the roles I casted for a pilot I filmed was ambigious in its diversity. Mostly because if we were "loyal" to our source material (it was about the behind the scenes of Man of Steel with Zack Snyder and Christopher Nolan, two roles we already found people for), then we'd have an all white cast and it wouldn't be as fun. And people weren't going to care if Executive Producer Thomas Tull was replaced with someone younger. It obviously was the most popular role to audition for and we chose the person we did because she was the best for the job. And on your other question, well, we've had decades of all white casts in shows. The only reason it's become less acceptable now (and that's not to say people weren't calling out that stuff back then but they didn't have the same platforms as now) is because we also have a history of more diverse shows being successful and executives suddenly deciding those were going to be rarer things.
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Apr 18, 2018 13:57:59 GMT -5
The one criticism I disagree Hari on is what I found was unfair criticism of Hank Azaria. When The Simpsons started no one had any idea they would become a cultural icon with an unlimited budget. They asked a very talented voice actor (Azaria) to play the role. At the time it made sense. I felt the doc unfairly vilified Hank Azaria.
I don't blame Azaria for not appearing in the documentary. You never know the agenda of people and with editing they could have easily twisted his words. No win situation with Azaria. Judging by Hari's response to a well thought out comment by Azaria I think it is safe to say he made the correct choice in not appearing.
The other issue is that when a character, and show, becomes that established it is very hard to just 'change' the actor. There is a talent to voice acting and not just anyone can bring the same life into the character. Whoever they would bring in would receive immense backlash just for not being Azaria.
I felt that criticism was unfair. The rest of the documentary was very well made and did bring up some good points of discussion.
On The Simpsons behalf they have hired minority voice actors to do recent episodes so they are branching out. Jimmy O. Yang did voice acting for Sun Tzu in the "No good read goes unpunished" episode. It should be noted that the Lisa quote was also in this episode.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 18, 2018 14:15:48 GMT -5
Who voices Apu is besides the point IMO. It's the character that matters which plays up to every stereotype of Indians. Even if an Indian actor was doing the voice, it would still be horrible. I haven't seen the show for 20 years so I have no idea what the character is like anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't been flanderised to hell by now and that his stereotyped traits are worse than ever before.
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Rumble McSkirmish
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Post by Rumble McSkirmish on Apr 18, 2018 14:30:31 GMT -5
I just came up with a solution so simple that even those Harvard egghead writers would have never it figured out. Apu gets a better job elsewhere, he and his family move out of town and once more James Woods comes back to run the Kwik E Mart but on a full time bases. There problem solved, now where's my cheque?
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Post by axebomber on Apr 18, 2018 14:35:01 GMT -5
Who voices Apu is besides the point IMO. It's the character that matters which plays up to every stereotype of Indians. Even if an Indian actor was doing the voice, it would still be horrible. I haven't seen the show for 20 years so I have no idea what the character is like anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't been flanderised to hell by now and that his stereotyped traits are worse th7an ever before. What horrible stereotypes are you referring to?
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 18, 2018 14:39:15 GMT -5
Who voices Apu is besides the point IMO. It's the character that matters which plays up to every stereotype of Indians. Even if an Indian actor was doing the voice, it would still be horrible. I haven't seen the show for 20 years so I have no idea what the character is like anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't been flanderised to hell by now and that his stereotyped traits are worse th7an ever before. What horrible stereotypes are you referring to? His accent and mannerisms.
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Post by crowley1986 on Apr 18, 2018 14:46:10 GMT -5
I just came up with a solution so simple that even those Harvard egghead writers would have never it figured out. Apu gets a better job elsewhere, he and his family move out of town and once more James Woods comes back to run the Kwik E Mart but on a full time bases. There problem solved, now where's my cheque? if they wouldn't age the characters, they wouldn't do that....and the offended brigade would be in uproar over Woods being a full timer for his comments lately
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