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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 18:49:57 GMT -5
I guess I don't really get the venom coming from the 'opposing' POV. I've got no dog in the fight, but it seems weird to be so adamantly against someone sayin: "I feel X." These threads always play out the same way. Poster 1: "GOD DAMN OFFENDED BRIGADE AM I RIGHT PEOPLE" *The same 3-4 people furiously click like* Poster 2: "Not offended, but perhaps you should consider *argument*" *Poster 1 acts like he was just victim to a tsunami of insults* The loop more goes like this Person 1: I don't like this. It's offensive. Person 2: Ok, I don't mind it, think its ok. Person 1: What! You don't agree that it's offensive! You have different opinions than me! You must be a racist/bigot/intolerant piece of shit!
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Post by Cela on Apr 18, 2018 19:03:50 GMT -5
I guess I don't really get the venom coming from the 'opposing' POV. I've got no dog in the fight, but it seems weird to be so adamantly against someone sayin: "I feel X." These threads always play out the same way. Poster 1: "GOD DAMN OFFENDED BRIGADE AM I RIGHT PEOPLE" *The same 3-4 people furiously click like* Poster 2: "Not offended, but perhaps you should consider *argument*" *Poster 1 acts like he was just victim to a tsunami of insults* Impressive strawman. On the other hand, we have many of these delve into "You don't agree this is terrible? I can't believe this board sometimes, I can't come here anymore." People rarely see their side as the extreme in the argument, because the other side is always moronically wrong. As for my dog in this fight. Only watched the trailer for the doc. The guy makes points worth hearing, but seems a lot like that person who tried to get #CancelColbert going years ago. Apu, while stereotypical, is a nuanced character that is part of a larger group of characters from all walks of life who are purposely exaggerated for the sake of humor. If anything, he should focus his efforts on getting more representation of Indians in media, rather than attempt to take down one of the few representations, even if it is done by a white guy, who has made a career playing the flamboyant sexy foreigner.
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 18, 2018 19:03:52 GMT -5
These threads always play out the same way. Poster 1: "GOD DAMN OFFENDED BRIGADE AM I RIGHT PEOPLE" *The same 3-4 people furiously click like* Poster 2: "Not offended, but perhaps you should consider *argument*" *Poster 1 acts like he was just victim to a tsunami of insults* The loop more goes like this Person 1: I don't like this. It's offensive. Person 2: Ok, I don't mind it, think its ok. Person 1: What! You don't agree that it's offensive! You have different opinions than me! You must be a racist/bigot/intolerant piece of shit!
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Apr 18, 2018 19:14:41 GMT -5
These threads always play out the same way. Poster 1: "GOD DAMN OFFENDED BRIGADE AM I RIGHT PEOPLE" *The same 3-4 people furiously click like* Poster 2: "Not offended, but perhaps you should consider *argument*" *Poster 1 acts like he was just victim to a tsunami of insults* The loop more goes like this Person 1: I don't like this. It's offensive. Person 2: Ok, I don't mind it, think its ok. Person 1: What! You don't agree that it's offensive! You have different opinions than me! You must be a racist/bigot/intolerant piece of shit! Honestly I don't think we've really seen much of either in this thread, with the notable exception of the one poster who's already played the "persecuted white man" card in another thread this week. A subject like this is never going to have everybody see eye-to-eye, but it is possible to disagree without flaming each other.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 19:16:07 GMT -5
The loop more goes like this Person 1: I don't like this. It's offensive. Person 2: Ok, I don't mind it, think its ok. Person 1: What! You don't agree that it's offensive! You have different opinions than me! You must be a racist/bigot/intolerant piece of shit! Honestly I don't think we've really seen much of either in this thread, with the notable exception of the one poster who's already played the "persecuted white man" card in another thread this week. A subject like this is never going to have everybody see eye-to-eye, but it is possible to disagree without flaming each other. I agree. I was using hyperbole in response to the previous hyperbole.
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 18, 2018 21:32:26 GMT -5
Our relation to whiteness in America compared to the rest of the Western world is a very complicated subject. One I don't really feel like getting into right now. None of the people criticizing Apu have done so in a way that criticizes the Simpsons showrunners for being Jewish. We're also prone to our own racial and ethnic blind spots as a people, as are other minorities. Being an ethnic minority doesn't give us a pass on participating in racist attitudes towards other minority populations, whether it's intentional or unintentional. But yes, please drop it. It's only making you look like a jerk. BTW, the current main showrunner of The Simpsons, Al Jean, is of Irish background. And not Jewish. He called me HHH, though, so I guess it's burial time.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Apr 19, 2018 2:11:59 GMT -5
These threads always play out the same way. Poster 1: "GOD DAMN OFFENDED BRIGADE AM I RIGHT PEOPLE" *The same 3-4 people furiously click like* Poster 2: "Not offended, but perhaps you should consider *argument*" *Poster 1 acts like he was just victim to a tsunami of insults* The loop more goes like this Person 1: I don't like this. It's offensive. Person 2: Ok, I don't mind it, think its ok. Person 1: What! You don't agree that it's offensive! You have different opinions than me! You must be a racist/bigot/intolerant piece of shit! I have no qualms admitting when something offends me. If that’s a problem, then I’m sorry, but I don’t know how else to react. If I feel something is unjust or unfair to a group of people. I’m going to make some noise. That’s just how it’s going to be. But then again I am the resident “SJW”, I suppose. So be it.
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ronin705
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Post by ronin705 on Apr 19, 2018 6:09:48 GMT -5
Came in looking for enlightenment. Leaving with even more confusion about humanity lol
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Post by hossfan on Apr 19, 2018 7:08:34 GMT -5
“Apu doesn’t ‘offend’ me, he ‘insults’ me...and my community. I’m an adult with bigger things to deal with. My film was meant to tell you to go f*** yourself & discuss why I want you to go **** yourself & how we can prevent future incidents of people wishing others ‘self-f***ery.’” If your an adult with bigger things to deal with then how's about you act like one instead of acting like a child throwing a tantrum in your response? Do you need your mother to come change your diaper and give you a juice box to settle you down? Because I think you need one He wasn’t throwing a temper tantrum in that documentary. I felt he had a good reason to be angry, and besides, he’s a comedian. Of course he’s going to exaggerate it.Exaggeration for comedic effect is what got "The Simpsons" in trouble to begin with.
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Post by edgestar on Apr 19, 2018 11:50:06 GMT -5
Our relation to whiteness in America compared to the rest of the Western world is a very complicated subject. One I don't really feel like getting into right now. None of the people criticizing Apu have done so in a way that criticizes the Simpsons showrunners for being Jewish. We're also prone to our own racial and ethnic blind spots as a people, as are other minorities. Being an ethnic minority doesn't give us a pass on participating in racist attitudes towards other minority populations, whether it's intentional or unintentional. But yes, please drop it. It's only making you look like a jerk. BTW, the current main showrunner of The Simpsons, Al Jean, is of Irish background. And not Jewish. He called me HHH, though, so I guess it's burial time. Didn't someone (Bret Hart, maybe?) call HHH, game boy, once? I just remembered that, and started laughing.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Apr 19, 2018 12:02:36 GMT -5
He called me HHH, though, so I guess it's burial time. Didn't someone (Bret Hart, maybe?) call HHH, game boy, once? I just remembered that, and started laughing. Bulldog.
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Post by edgestar on Apr 19, 2018 12:22:21 GMT -5
Didn't someone (Bret Hart, maybe?) call HHH, game boy, once? I just remembered that, and started laughing. Bulldog. Yesssssssssss. That was a hilarious moment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 14:14:56 GMT -5
The loop more goes like this Person 1: I don't like this. It's offensive. Person 2: Ok, I don't mind it, think its ok. Person 1: What! You don't agree that it's offensive! You have different opinions than me! You must be a racist/bigot/intolerant piece of shit! I have no qualms admitting when something offends me. If that’s a problem, then I’m sorry, but I don’t know how else to react. If I feel something is unjust or unfair to a group of people. I’m going to make some noise. That’s just how it’s going to be. But then again I am the resident “SJW”, I suppose. So be it. The mindset of putting the group before the individual is where the issue lies. It's an invitation to tribalism and tribalism is an invitation to conflict. One of the great achievements of western culture is that we figured out that the individual should always be super ordinate to the state. Furthermore, the claim is "I'm marginalized" and that sort of becomes normalized. And there's a group right outside of that that says, "I'm marginalized too!" and another group after that that says, "Here I am, I'm also marginalized". There's absolutely no logic once you've identified yourself as marginalized. There's no logical way that you can exclude anyone else that regards themselves as marginalized and so the community of the marginalized expands and expands and expands and expands. Part of the reason for that is every individual is a multiplicity and there's an element to every individual that's marginalized. So when you start to concentrate on the marginalized it just expands so much and to such an extent that eventually everyone becomes marginalized. That's what you see with the LGBT movement/acronym. They're getting caught in their own metaphor. There is an infinite number of gradients in a rainbow and there's an infinite number of letters that are accumulating. There is an element of clear absurdity to that and one of them is Q+ that includes otherkin types. Do to the rules of the board however, the counter arguments can not be properly gone into as they deal very specifically with the identity politic. And I feel that's why as illustrated earlier people tend to get the idea that people who take issue with constant offense taking are people to be made fun of or mocked and so discussion is stifled as a result. The other argument will just not receive the opportunity. And you you what? That's fine. It's Madison's board and he can absolutely decide how he chooses to operate it. Most of us are cool with that. That's why we post here everyday.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Apr 19, 2018 20:13:42 GMT -5
Let it expand, then. I don’t see anything wrong with the world gradually becoming less exclusionary. I’m looking forward to seeing more and more nuanced characters on television that aren’t rooted in outdated stereotypes.
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Apr 20, 2018 0:33:28 GMT -5
These threads always play out the same way. Poster 1: "GOD DAMN OFFENDED BRIGADE AM I RIGHT PEOPLE" *The same 3-4 people furiously click like* Poster 2: "Not offended, but perhaps you should consider *argument*" *Poster 1 acts like he was just victim to a tsunami of insults* The loop more goes like this Person 1: I don't like this. It's offensive. Person 2: Ok, I don't mind it, think its ok. Person 1: What! You don't agree that it's offensive! You have different opinions than me! You must be a racist/bigot/intolerant piece of shit! I think the problem is that both of these scenarios are kind of true, and this "You're either with us or against us" mentality that both sides cling to have ended up destroying any chance to find common ground with each other.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 9:06:27 GMT -5
Johnny Flamingo I didn't see them tackle xenophobia in "Much Apu About Something". It was more about age bashing and how resistant Apu was to adapting for the future. "Nothing", however, remains one of my favorite episodes, especially when Apu's fake American accent falters as he's trying to justify Entertainment Weekly over his Ganesh shrine. To explain my thinking. Knowing the name of the episode I did go in looking at it as a continuation/extension of that story. In the episode Jay is arguing with Apu and tells him "That's exactly what I'm talking to you about. You're my uncle and I love you, but you're a stereotype, man. Take a penny, leave a penny. I'm Indian, I do yoga. Why don't you go back to the Temple of Doom, Dr. Jones!" and changes the Kwik-E-Mart (stereotypically Indian workers) to a health store (stereotypically white). To me it showed how Apu represented what many feel about Apu and his characterization. He was the exact opposite of his uncle's characterization, even changing his name from Jamshed to Jay. Should also be noted that Jay was played by Indian actor Utkarsh Ambudkar (as compared to Azaria with Apu). I thought it was a representation of how xenophobia leads to characterization of cultures. The name of the episode comes from Much Apu about Nothing. In a continutation of that story, his nephew is trying to go away from that stereotype and losing his "Indian" name to appeal to the more white Springfield, much like how Apu changed his image and name in that episode. Essentially he is changing everything about him to be more white to be more accepted as a minority. Maybe I overthought the episode, but I thought that combined with "Something" that "Nothing" was a good continuation of that episode while also touching on stereotypes. I am a big fan of both episodes. While I am glad you found something worth mentioning in that episode, I have to respectfully disagree on one issue; Apu wasn't sympathetic. Although he did have validity towards Jay "selling out", Jay at least had an understanding of how to adapt to a changing marketplace by realizing that if something is in Vogue, stupid people will buy it, regardless of cost or credibility. For a guy who charges "surprisingly expensive" penny candy, he would have respected that, only to be turned off by his nephew's rejection of his heritage completely. Instead, Apu whines about the store changing with his old ideas not having much use and insults Jay more for his age than his cultural sellout. He also gloats at him when everything spoils instantly and called him "another failed millennial".
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Renslayer
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Post by Renslayer on Apr 25, 2018 0:50:28 GMT -5
Hank Azaria was asked about it on the Late Show, and gave some solid answers
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Apr 25, 2018 4:39:50 GMT -5
Hank Azaria seems like the only voice of reason in this whole thing. Much respect to him. he has given very consistently well thought out answers in response to this.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 25, 2018 9:05:48 GMT -5
Yeah, Azaria comes across like the doc caught him flat-footed (him not appearing or even really addressing it), then he course corrected and went: "Oh, my bad...sorry."
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Post by Chainsaw on Apr 25, 2018 20:59:34 GMT -5
It's honestly a tough call, because Apu is an entrenched, beloved character, but I can see why people of Indian descent have had the tough burden of his character placed on them as they grew up. There hasn't been a lot of good representative Indian people over the years on TV. It's a testament to the writers over the years that they mined a lot of depth out of the character beyond what he started out as. That's why I feel like retiring the character isn't the right way to go, but for sure, Al Jean's responses, and the way they tried to sweep it under the rug in typical Simpsons flippancy, are sure as hell not the right way to go either. Honestly, I'd love to see Hari, if he was interested in it, write an Apu-centric episode and see what he could add to his voice.
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