Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,381
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 10, 2018 16:48:16 GMT -5
Amazing show, and while I wish my boy Naito had pulled it off, and I found the story of the match a little weird in how it sort of rocked back and forth in a few weird directions, I have enough faith there's something behind it and I'm willing to see it through. Just an amazing show overall and splitting it up so I didn't have the taste of piss in my mouth left from the Elgin win to stain the major matches. I may not be in a position to opine since I'm not a long-time watcher, but I'm sort of confused as to what's even going on with Naito. If this were North America, he'd be getting set up for a massive "F*** You, F*** the Fans, F*** everybody" turn, to stick it to the people who stuck with him even though he wasn't the plan. And again, being unfamiliar with how ultra long-term booking works in NJPW, it really seems weird to me how factions never seem to clean up. When EVIL and Sanada had their moment at WK, Hiromu and Naito both shit the bed. Now that Hiromu gets his moment at Dominion, EVIL/Sanada and Naito blow it. The only faction-level story that seems to come out of this is that Jay White is the only CHAOS guy who didn't lose his belt, and even that's because it wasn't on the line (he still ate a pinfall).
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Jun 10, 2018 17:05:19 GMT -5
I like how the end of Okada's reign kinda echoes that of the end of Undertaker's streak. Both picked the very fight that would lead to their downfall and you can kinda go a million ways in thinking of the connotations of that. Just unreal stuff.
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Convoy
El Dandy
Rusev admits to being a sex addict to large applause.
Posts: 7,576
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Post by Convoy on Jun 10, 2018 17:31:05 GMT -5
IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Championship: Will Ospreay [c] vs. Hiromu Takahashi It’s the best junior in the world! Oh, and Ospreay is there, too. Their match in February was fantastic (****½) and Hiromu is coming off an incredible BOTSJ run. When these two wrestle, I want them to give us a reckless war. Of course, in the opening minutes, Will nearly killed himself with an insane dive off the ramp. However, Will slowed the pace because he realized how much Hiromu thrives in a fast paced match. Hiromu got going, showcasing some heavyweight like strikes that Will did his best to fire back. There were some awesome spots, like Will’s deadlift superplex followed by the Burning Star Press, or Hiromu hitting a Destroyer and going right into the triangle choke. To counter, Ospreay basically folded Hiromu and dropped him on his head. That kicked off an absolutely wild final few minutes. Hiromu countered Strom Breaker into the triangle choke. Though Ospreay didn’t quit, it was enough to wear him down for a corner DVD and Time Bomb to regain the gold in 20:20. Hiromu lost in February, saw Will hurt his neck a few months later, and came back with a newly developed submission to take back Mr. Belt. The match played off that and featured some of the frantic action we want from these two. [****½]Kev - Since the scores were the same, how do their match-ups rank for you (also adding in last year's BotSJ match as well)?
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Jun 10, 2018 17:39:51 GMT -5
Amazing show, and while I wish my boy Naito had pulled it off, and I found the story of the match a little weird in how it sort of rocked back and forth in a few weird directions, I have enough faith there's something behind it and I'm willing to see it through. Just an amazing show overall and splitting it up so I didn't have the taste of piss in my mouth left from the Elgin win to stain the major matches. I may not be in a position to opine since I'm not a long-time watcher, but I'm sort of confused as to what's even going on with Naito. If this were North America, he'd be getting set up for a massive "F*** You, F*** the Fans, F*** everybody" turn, to stick it to the people who stuck with him even though he wasn't the plan. And again, being unfamiliar with how ultra long-term booking works in NJPW, it really seems weird to me how factions never seem to clean up. When EVIL and Sanada had their moment at WK, Hiromu and Naito both shit the bed. Now that Hiromu gets his moment at Dominion, EVIL/Sanada and Naito blow it. The only faction-level story that seems to come out of this is that Jay White is the only CHAOS guy who didn't lose his belt, and even that's because it wasn't on the line (he still ate a pinfall). The vibe I'm getting is that factions in NJPW are somewhere inbetween conventional stables and MMA-style camps. The guys roll together, tag together, are friends and generally want their team to do well and bring in more gold meaning more money and more spotlight, but also are rarely conventional "elite superstable who are all perfectly in sync". From what I gather Bullet Club started off like an nWo-style faction only were built around being disrespectful gaijin rather than outsiders to the company (maybe both actually?) but has evolved into more of a wide collection of gaijin wrestlers who don't have a cohesive goal beyond "cmon bros lets get titles get dollar", CHAOS started as Nakamura's project to resurrect traditional Strong Style but are now also a big' ol squad of training partners & bros with Okada as the main man of the group, like how an MMA camp has their A-fighter and then B or C tier sparring partners. LIJ is Naito's posse of misfit buddies who started off trying to tear down the NJPW system but have mellowed into just being a bunch of weirdos and outcasts trying to bring the gold home. Suzuki-gun is Minoru Suzuki and his antisocial goons and they seem to be the only faction still with a coherent goal which is just cause as much misery and mayhem as they can because Minoru Suzuki has no joy in his life and he wants ZSJ and the others to follow in his footsteps. If I've got something wrong someone can clear this up for me but I'd say that could be part of the disconnect, the NJPW factions aren't traditional Western factions in the sense of having a cohesive goal or objective, beyond the usual wrestling objectives of "I wanna be the very best like no-one ever was" but with help from their buddies & training partners. I quite like it tbh, as while a good "X holds all the gold" moment can be a very satisfying angle, it can sometimes feel a bit like it's been forced to get there and make the stable seem like a threat, whereas if titles move in and out of different camps it keeps the vibe that all these guys are hotly contesting the championships and at any one moment one faction could take the lead over the others if they bring a belt home, plus it makes faction switches or acquisitions, like Ishimori, feel much more meaningful, as they feel like difference makers. Whereas a stable having all the gold then slowly losing it feels a bit less unpredictable, at least for me.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 10, 2018 18:27:39 GMT -5
I may not be in a position to opine since I'm not a long-time watcher, but I'm sort of confused as to what's even going on with Naito. If this were North America, he'd be getting set up for a massive "F*** You, F*** the Fans, F*** everybody" turn, to stick it to the people who stuck with him even though he wasn't the plan. And again, being unfamiliar with how ultra long-term booking works in NJPW, it really seems weird to me how factions never seem to clean up. When EVIL and Sanada had their moment at WK, Hiromu and Naito both shit the bed. Now that Hiromu gets his moment at Dominion, EVIL/Sanada and Naito blow it. The only faction-level story that seems to come out of this is that Jay White is the only CHAOS guy who didn't lose his belt, and even that's because it wasn't on the line (he still ate a pinfall). The vibe I'm getting is that factions in NJPW are somewhere inbetween conventional stables and MMA-style camps. The guys roll together, tag together, are friends and generally want their team to do well and bring in more gold meaning more money and more spotlight, but also are rarely conventional "elite superstable who are all perfectly in sync". From what I gather Bullet Club started off like an nWo-style faction only were built around being disrespectful gaijin rather than outsiders to the company (maybe both actually?) but has evolved into more of a wide collection of gaijin wrestlers who don't have a cohesive goal beyond "cmon bros lets get titles get dollar", CHAOS started as Nakamura's project to resurrect traditional Strong Style but are now also a big' ol squad of training partners & bros with Okada as the main man of the group, like how an MMA camp has their A-fighter and then B or C tier sparring partners. LIJ is Naito's posse of misfit buddies who started off trying to tear down the NJPW system but have mellowed into just being a bunch of weirdos and outcasts trying to bring the gold home. Suzuki-gun is Minoru Suzuki and his antisocial goons and they seem to be the only faction still with a coherent goal which is just cause as much misery and mayhem as they can because Minoru Suzuki has no joy in his life and he wants ZSJ and the others to follow in his footsteps. If I've got something wrong someone can clear this up for me but I'd say that could be part of the disconnect, the NJPW factions aren't traditional Western factions in the sense of having a cohesive goal or objective, beyond the usual wrestling objectives of "I wanna be the very best like no-one ever was" but with help from their buddies & training partners. I quite like it tbh, as while a good "X holds all the gold" moment can be a very satisfying angle, it can sometimes feel a bit like it's been forced to get there and make the stable seem like a threat, whereas if titles move in and out of different camps it keeps the vibe that all these guys are hotly contesting the championships and at any one moment one faction could take the lead over the others if they bring a belt home, plus it makes faction switches or acquisitions, like Ishimori, feel much more meaningful, as they feel like difference makers. Whereas a stable having all the gold then slowly losing it feels a bit less unpredictable, at least for me. Pretty much. I think the other detail is that since the company is basically organized around large factions (well, except the 5-member LIJ) it's tough to do things in perfect sync as there are usually just too many members. There have certainly been shows that have ended with, say, CHAOS or Bullet Club holding all the major belts, but there's enough people involved in doing so that doing it too often would be unwieldy. Often enough they're happy to let individual members or teams within a faction have their own personal storylines and character arcs to deal with somewhat independent of the rest of the group.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Jun 10, 2018 19:35:17 GMT -5
![](https://i2.wp.com/fightboothpw.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/DfOJEHKV4AAXcJp.jpg?w=1137) NJPW Dominion June 9th, 2018 | Osaka Jo-Hall in Osaka, Japan | Attendance: 11,832
Dominion is New Japan’s second biggest show of the year. Last year, they just repeated most of their Wrestle Kingdom card. This year, things are different, though the main events just see guys from WK swapped around.
IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championship: El Desperado and Yoshinobu Kanemaru [c] vs. Roppongi 3K w/ Rocky Romero Roppongi 3K beat the champions in singles matches during the BOTSJ. SHO, YOH, and Desperado were great in the tournament. Kanemaru? Not so much. The challengers were ready for the champs, jumping them before the bell to turn the tables. That was kind of the story of this match. Roppongi 3K has become wise to the tricks of the Suzuki-Gun duo. They had counters for their stuff and managed to avoid a lot of Suzuki-Gun shenanigans. Near the end, Sho even got free of a low blow and looked to pick up the win with the Shock Arrow. However, Desperado countered, we got a ref bump and Kanemaru brought out the whiskey spit. That set up a Desperado rollup as the champs retained in 9:29. I enjoyed the story this told. RPG 3K were so close to overcoming from all they’ve learned, it just wasn’t enough. [***]
David Finlay and Juice Robinson vs. IWGP United States Heavyweight Champion Jay White and YOSHI-HASHI This was here to continue the feud between Juice and Jay, though Finlay still has issues with the US Champion. Juice and David have won several tags in a row. YOSHI wasn’t a fan of Jay jumping Juice before the bell, continuing the trend of Jay being in CHAOS but not really being in CHAOS. Finlay took the heat for his guys. We got the great old school hot tag behind the referee’s back spot. Classic. The real hot tag didn’t have a ton of fire, but Juice was sure to involve the crowd in a lot of what he does. He has so much confidence in everything he does now. He ended up scoring the victory by hitting Pulp Friction on Jay White in 7:26! A big win for Juice as he pinned the US Heavyweight Champion. It should set up a title match, maybe at the Cow Palace. The match itself was some solid tag team wrestling. Dominion is off to a good start. [***]
RevPro British Tag Team Champions Minoru Suzuki and Zack Sabre Jr. w/ TAKA Michinoku vs. RevPro British Heavyweight Champion Tomohiro Ishii and Toru Yano RevPro with some big representation. Ishii and Suzuki were at each other’s throats instantly. That was the main appeal of this match. Watching Suzuki and Ishii go to war. Yano was way out of his element and that played into a lot of the comedy he brought to the table. It ended up being a nice little addition to stand out in this match. Basically, when Yano was in, he was screaming and running. When Ishii was in, he was all about taking it right to Suzuki, even if it meant getting beat up. Sabre had some revenge on his mind as well, considering Ishii took the RevPro title from him. The finish was stellar, as Yano went to low blow Sabre, but he locked his knees together and blocked it. From there, Sabre slapped on a vicious armbar and Yano tapped in 8:42. Another strong tag match, though this was my favorite so far. The personalities involved made it work, while the intensity of Ishii/Suzuki was enough to have me dying to see their singles match. [***¼]
Post-match, Ishii went after Suzuki in the aisle. They fought back to the ring and began dueling with chairs. They ended up fighting at ringside by just slapping the shit out of each other.
NEVER Openweight Championship: Hirooki Goto [c] vs. Michael Elgin vs. Taichi w/ Miho Abe I can’t stand Elgin, Taichi usually sucks, and Goto hasn’t meant much of anything since Okada Rainmakered him to the mid-card. Needless to say, I was not excited about this match. I will say, Elgin is in fantastic shape. This was mildly interesting to watch, as it featured some of the usual triple threat tropes we see in WWE. Like when one guy does a move and has to break up the pin because another guy tries to steal the pin right in front of him. Or the tower of doom spot. Stuff like that. Parts of this felt like an Elgin showcase since he was clearly booked to look the strongest. Just as Elgin and Goto began to do battle like their G1 banger in 2015, Taichi used the microphone stand to interrupt. He laughed like a villain, but his follow up offense wasn’t enough. The finish was cool, as Elgin lifted Taichi straight from a Gedo Clutch and into a Buckle Bomb. He then hit a second Buckle Bomb on Taichi into Goto and added the Elgin Bomb to win the title in 13:46. The first Westerner to hold the title. This was better than I expected. I thought it would be awful, but it was pretty good. A few too many obvious tropes were leaned on, but again, it was fine. However, not a fan of Elgin as champion, especially considering how folks have turned on him this year. [**¾]
IWGP Tag Team Championship: EVIL and SANADA [c] vs. NEVER Openweight Six Man Tag Team Champions The Young Bucks The Bucks recently moved to the heavyweight division to prove they’re the best. Not sure what exactly they did to earn a shot except lose to the Golden Lovers. Still, this looked like one of the more interesting bouts. The Bucks worked better as a unit, having been a team forever, but the sheer size and strength of the champions was too much at points. Matt is STILL selling a back injury from Wrestle Kingdom, while Nick had his foot worked on and commentary sold it like it was broken. I wasn’t a fan of this match having a tower of doom spot, when we literally just got one in the previous match. Anyway, Nick’s foot came into play a lot. It stopped them from hitting an Indytaker and led to the champions hitting one of their own. The Bucks weathered the storm and survived a lot, before finally hitting More Bang For Your Buck and capturing the titles in 15:03. This was great. The Bucks have finally looked like a great tag team to me this year. They stepped away from their one dimensional comfort zone and have delivered some bangers. The selling was great and the action was fierce. I do think Nick did a bit too much with the bad foot, but that’s not a major gripe. Other than the Golden Lovers match, I believe this was my favorite Bucks outing ever. [****¼]
I do question the booking here. Before you Young Bucks fans get on me, hear me out. I think the Bucks should’ve lost here. Have their foot and back issues, plus size difference, present a new challenge. They relied a lot on their greatest hits and I think the better story would be that costing them. They could spend the next few months regrouping, win the World Tag League and win the big on in the Tokyo Dome. Just a thought.
Cody, Hangman Page, and NEVER Openweight Six Man Tag Team Champion Marty Scurll vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi, Jushin Thunder Liger, and Rey Mysterio Jr. This is a strange sounding six man tag. Marty, who kind of started this whole thing, was eager to talk smack to Mysterio, but did his best to avoid him. When he got his hands on Marty, he was all over him. He and Tanahashi did well in the early stages. Liger came in and eventually became the man to take the heat segment. Great spot for him as he was clearly the guy who would be booked the weakest on his team, but is so beloved that the crowd would sympathize. Mysterio and Tanahashi came in and did their things at separate times. Liger and Cody ended up as the legal men, with Liger falling to Cross Rhodes in 11:35. This mostly felt like a typical NJPW multi-man tag, except for the addition of Mysterio, who looked good. [***]
IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Championship: Will Ospreay [c] vs. Hiromu Takahashi It’s the best junior in the world! Oh, and Ospreay is there, too. Their match in February was fantastic (****½) and Hiromu is coming off an incredible BOTSJ run. When these two wrestle, I want them to give us a reckless war. Of course, in the opening minutes, Will nearly killed himself with an insane dive off the ramp. However, Will slowed the pace because he realized how much Hiromu thrives in a fast paced match. Hiromu got going, showcasing some heavyweight like strikes that Will did his best to fire back. There were some awesome spots, like Will’s deadlift superplex followed by the Burning Star Press, or Hiromu hitting a Destroyer and going right into the triangle choke. To counter, Ospreay basically folded Hiromu and dropped him on his head. That kicked off an absolutely wild final few minutes. Hiromu countered Strom Breaker into the triangle choke. Though Ospreay didn’t quit, it was enough to wear him down for a corner DVD and Time Bomb to regain the gold in 20:20. Hiromu lost in February, saw Will hurt his neck a few months later, and came back with a newly developed submission to take back Mr. Belt. The match played off that and featured some of the frantic action we want from these two. [****½]
IWGP Intercontinental Championship: Tetsuya Naito [c] vs. Chris Jericho The story for this goes back six months. Jericho came out in a strange face painted goth getup. NJPW Jericho has been billed a more vicious, brutal character. He showed that by attacking Naito before the bell and powerbombing him through a table and hitting a DDT on another. Once the bell rang, Jericho tried for a quick win, but Naito was resilient. From there, these guys went to war, throwing big moves in and outside of the ring. That included Naito throwing a piledriver on a table. The match went back inside, but kept up the aggressive nature. Even when Jericho applied the Walls, he held it and reared back as if he was trying to do more than win. He wanted to hurt Naito. Jericho countering Naito’s rebound attack into a Codebreaker was one of my favorite spots. In the end, Jericho used a low blow and the Codebreaker to surprisingly become the IC Champion in 17:16. I’m really glad this wasn’t overly long. The pre-match attack set the tone for a war and they told a great story. Jericho badly wanted that tenth IC Title, but also wanted to destroy Naito. They had a match fitting of that. [****]
Post-match, Jericho continued the attack on Tetsuya Naito. Poor Naito lost at WK and again here. As Jericho whipped him with his belt, EVIL hit the ring and traded blows with Jericho. He hit a lariat to knock him down and got the belt. Jericho left with his title before he could get whipped. I’m all for Jericho vs. EVIL.
IWGP Heavyweight Championship Two Out of Three Falls Match: Kazuchika Okada [c] w/ Gedo vs. Kenny Omega w/ Kota Ibushi All their matches been grossly rated by Dave Meltzer. I have their WK11 match at ****¼ (Okada won), the Dominion time limit draw at ***½, and Kenny’s G1 win at ****¾. It’s tiebreaker time, folks. Anyway, the first fall mostly went as you’d expect. They gave us some of the usual early Okada formula, though I liked how Omega had things scouted. For example, cutting off Okada’s guardrail cross body with a V-Trigger was great and looked painful. Omega was out to control the pace, saying he had more stamina. They both went for their finishers, yet were unable to connect. Knowing he beat Okada the one time he hit the One Winged Angel, Omega went for it a bit too much and Okada had counters ready. One counter led to a rollup situation. Okada blocked one and sat on Omega to take the first fall at 28:47. There was a two minute rest period in between falls. With the lead, Okada grew cocky. He smiled during the break and acted like he had this in the bag. To be fair, when you’ve barely been pinned twice in two years, getting pinned twice in a row in two matches seems highly unlikely. Omega had to try something new, bringing a table into play. When he hit a double stomp onto the table onto Okada, the champion began making sounds like Shane McMahon earlier this year. Okada is obsessed with proving himself in each match, so he went to use the table back on Kenny and call back to the huge back body drop spot Omega took. Omega stopped it and we got a call back to the dragon suplex through a table that Omega used to win the US Title last July. Omega never let up, pouncing on Okada at every chance. He finally hit the One Winged Angel to even the score after 47:47. The next fall began interestingly, as Okada was still dazed from the finisher, so Omega quickly hit a V-Trigger. However, Okada hit a Rainmaker out of desperation to get some breathing room. The final stretch was a tremendous show of how exhausted these guys were and how desperate they were to win. Omega hitting a One Winged Angel while basically falling over was great. Okada was dazed and completely out of it. Omega eventually hit another One Winged Angel to finally end Okada’s reign of terror after 64:50. Is this the best match ever? Absolutely not. It is an incredible one that is a MOTYC? Yes. I think this was better than their WK match and much better than their last Dominion outing. They told a great story and for the most part, they paced the match very well. There were tons of callbacks to their history and they all worked. My only gripe is that it didn’t play off their G1 match enough. That night showed that coming right at Okada was the best strategy instead of playing into his hands. If Omega really believed he had the stamina advantage, he could’ve come out hot like he did in the G1. Regardless, this is a tremendous match and I love that they didn’t try something absurd like going 75 minutes for the sake of it. [****¾]
Overall: 9.5/10. Hands down, the best NJPW show of the year. In fact, I’d only put it behind TakeOver: New Orleans for the show of the year. There was no filler on the card. Even the early tags had meaning (building Juice/White and Ishii/Suzuki). All the titles, except one changed hands, giving the company a fresh feeling for the first time in ages, especially at the top. Bucks/EVIL & SANADA was great, Naito/Jericho took a vicious story, and the Jr. Title was outrageous. The main event lived up to the hype and it all added up to one hell of a show.So would you say that this main event was the best of Okada's title reign or does that honor still go to Shibata?
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 10, 2018 19:57:13 GMT -5
Amazing show, and while I wish my boy Naito had pulled it off, and I found the story of the match a little weird in how it sort of rocked back and forth in a few weird directions, I have enough faith there's something behind it and I'm willing to see it through. Just an amazing show overall and splitting it up so I didn't have the taste of piss in my mouth left from the Elgin win to stain the major matches. I may not be in a position to opine since I'm not a long-time watcher, but I'm sort of confused as to what's even going on with Naito. If this were North America, he'd be getting set up for a massive "F*** You, F*** the Fans, F*** everybody" turn, to stick it to the people who stuck with him even though he wasn't the plan. And again, being unfamiliar with how ultra long-term booking works in NJPW, it really seems weird to me how factions never seem to clean up. When EVIL and Sanada had their moment at WK, Hiromu and Naito both shit the bed. Now that Hiromu gets his moment at Dominion, EVIL/Sanada and Naito blow it. The only faction-level story that seems to come out of this is that Jay White is the only CHAOS guy who didn't lose his belt, and even that's because it wasn't on the line (he still ate a pinfall). Yeah as has been touched on it's all usually very out of step. Because the roster is generally sorted out into major categories and change within them tends to be slow--Ishimori and White are the only notable acquisitions so far in the year and we're now midway into June--there's no way they could book a dominant megastable in the same way that WWE might bring in a group, set them up with major wins off the bat, and then make it a fight to tear them down. In WWE, that works because that can be a main event story and then off to the side we have our own stuff f***ing about. But in New Japan there needs to be a bit more care put into it, because even "the guys who aren't in a faction" are sort of essentially in a faction under Taguchi Japan. This is where the ulta long-term element is brought into things; if matches are generally meant to mean something and especially in the case of singles matches will be taken into consideration under the broader scope of what they mean, then you have to consider what matches you put on very tightly. The show moves in very cyclical booking patterns around these factions, and in particular, around the idea of using tag matches to build up toward the big match, which is why Road To matches have such tag-heavy cards that often repeat the same general beats again and again, and why both past G1 winners have had singles matches in the build up to their WK title match against Okada against "underboos" sorts in CHAOS with the contract on the line. But if you lock down too many belts under one faction then you open a problem where you either have to spread the group in too many directions to be able to effectively book the build-up to it--especially for a small group like Los Ingobernables de Japon who have only five members and two of them are juniors--or you have to spend a lot of time putting on filler matches that can burn through potential match-ups that should have the title as a focus on them instead. With something like Dominion, which has Best of Super Juniors as its lead-in and no real time to work Road To shows that build up in one direction, with a main event featuring guys they wanted to have go in very fresh due to the match they were about to have and a semi-main featuring someone who wasn't available until the day of his match, you don't see that cycle quite as strongly in what's going on. Undercard tags for BOSJ and G1 are more about putting factions up against one another in anticipation of the next night's match rather than setting up for the card, and Dominion was a card that had its major players locked up in too many off-beat directions to be able to set things up well through those matches. Or the short simple answer; when WWE books a faction it's with the intent of that faction rising, falling, and then everyone moving on. New Japan's factions are core foundational elements of their product and the long-term implications have to be considered always.
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Convoy
El Dandy
Rusev admits to being a sex addict to large applause.
Posts: 7,576
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Post by Convoy on Jun 10, 2018 20:07:12 GMT -5
There is a free press conference tonight at 11pm EST/8pm PST. I'm assuming an interview or two at most. Though the one after WK did have Okada adding Switchblade to CHAOS.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,381
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 10, 2018 20:07:37 GMT -5
I may not be in a position to opine since I'm not a long-time watcher, but I'm sort of confused as to what's even going on with Naito. If this were North America, he'd be getting set up for a massive "F*** You, F*** the Fans, F*** everybody" turn, to stick it to the people who stuck with him even though he wasn't the plan. And again, being unfamiliar with how ultra long-term booking works in NJPW, it really seems weird to me how factions never seem to clean up. When EVIL and Sanada had their moment at WK, Hiromu and Naito both shit the bed. Now that Hiromu gets his moment at Dominion, EVIL/Sanada and Naito blow it. The only faction-level story that seems to come out of this is that Jay White is the only CHAOS guy who didn't lose his belt, and even that's because it wasn't on the line (he still ate a pinfall). Yeah as has been touched on it's all usually very out of step. Because the roster is generally sorted out into major categories and change within them tends to be slow--Ishimori and White are the only notable acquisitions so far in the year and we're now midway into June--there's no way they could book a dominant megastable in the same way that WWE might bring in a group, set them up with major wins off the bat, and then make it a fight to tear them down. In WWE, that works because that can be a main event story and then off to the side we have our own stuff f***ing about. But in New Japan there needs to be a bit more care put into it, because even "the guys who aren't in a faction" are sort of essentially in a faction under Taguchi Japan. This is where the ulta long-term element is brought into things; if matches are generally meant to mean something and especially in the case of singles matches will be taken into consideration under the broader scope of what they mean, then you have to consider what matches you put on very tightly. The show moves in very cyclical booking patterns around these factions, and in particular, around the idea of using tag matches to build up toward the big match, which is why Road To matches have such tag-heavy cards that often repeat the same general beats again and again, and why both past G1 winners have had singles matches in the build up to their WK title match against Okada against "underboos" sorts in CHAOS with the contract on the line. But if you lock down too many belts under one faction then you open a problem where you either have to spread the group in too many directions to be able to effectively book the build-up to it--especially for a small group like Los Ingobernables de Japon who have only five members and two of them are juniors--or you have to spend a lot of time putting on filler matches that can burn through potential match-ups that should have the title as a focus on them instead. With something like Dominion, which has Best of Super Juniors as its lead-in and no real time to work Road To shows that build up in one direction, with a main event featuring guys they wanted to have go in very fresh due to the match they were about to have and a semi-main featuring someone who wasn't available until the day of his match, you don't see that cycle quite as strongly in what's going on. Undercard tags for BOSJ and G1 are more about putting factions up against one another in anticipation of the next night's match rather than setting up for the card, and Dominion was a card that had its major players locked up in too many off-beat directions to be able to set things up well through those matches. Or the short simple answer; when WWE books a faction it's with the intent of that faction rising, falling, and then everyone moving on. New Japan's factions are core foundational elements of their product and the long-term implications have to be considered always. I guess from my shitty, limited perspective, LIJ is the closest to a WWE faction, with everybody being close-knit and clearly on the same page (despite EVIL's outlandish entrance), and maybe I'm looking at things through their perspective. CHAOS is just so massive and so bloated that it's really hard to wrap some context about.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Jun 10, 2018 20:10:54 GMT -5
Yeah as has been touched on it's all usually very out of step. Because the roster is generally sorted out into major categories and change within them tends to be slow--Ishimori and White are the only notable acquisitions so far in the year and we're now midway into June--there's no way they could book a dominant megastable in the same way that WWE might bring in a group, set them up with major wins off the bat, and then make it a fight to tear them down. In WWE, that works because that can be a main event story and then off to the side we have our own stuff f***ing about. But in New Japan there needs to be a bit more care put into it, because even "the guys who aren't in a faction" are sort of essentially in a faction under Taguchi Japan. This is where the ulta long-term element is brought into things; if matches are generally meant to mean something and especially in the case of singles matches will be taken into consideration under the broader scope of what they mean, then you have to consider what matches you put on very tightly. The show moves in very cyclical booking patterns around these factions, and in particular, around the idea of using tag matches to build up toward the big match, which is why Road To matches have such tag-heavy cards that often repeat the same general beats again and again, and why both past G1 winners have had singles matches in the build up to their WK title match against Okada against "underboos" sorts in CHAOS with the contract on the line. But if you lock down too many belts under one faction then you open a problem where you either have to spread the group in too many directions to be able to effectively book the build-up to it--especially for a small group like Los Ingobernables de Japon who have only five members and two of them are juniors--or you have to spend a lot of time putting on filler matches that can burn through potential match-ups that should have the title as a focus on them instead. With something like Dominion, which has Best of Super Juniors as its lead-in and no real time to work Road To shows that build up in one direction, with a main event featuring guys they wanted to have go in very fresh due to the match they were about to have and a semi-main featuring someone who wasn't available until the day of his match, you don't see that cycle quite as strongly in what's going on. Undercard tags for BOSJ and G1 are more about putting factions up against one another in anticipation of the next night's match rather than setting up for the card, and Dominion was a card that had its major players locked up in too many off-beat directions to be able to set things up well through those matches. Or the short simple answer; when WWE books a faction it's with the intent of that faction rising, falling, and then everyone moving on. New Japan's factions are core foundational elements of their product and the long-term implications have to be considered always. I guess from my shitty, limited perspective, LIJ is the closest to a WWE faction, with everybody being close-knit and clearly on the same page (despite EVIL's outlandish entrance), and maybe I'm looking at things through their perspective. CHAOS is just so massive and so bloated that it's really hard to wrap some context about. CHAOS is just a way to group all of the guys who aren't traditional babyfaces at this point.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 10, 2018 20:21:51 GMT -5
Yeah as has been touched on it's all usually very out of step. Because the roster is generally sorted out into major categories and change within them tends to be slow--Ishimori and White are the only notable acquisitions so far in the year and we're now midway into June--there's no way they could book a dominant megastable in the same way that WWE might bring in a group, set them up with major wins off the bat, and then make it a fight to tear them down. In WWE, that works because that can be a main event story and then off to the side we have our own stuff f***ing about. But in New Japan there needs to be a bit more care put into it, because even "the guys who aren't in a faction" are sort of essentially in a faction under Taguchi Japan. This is where the ulta long-term element is brought into things; if matches are generally meant to mean something and especially in the case of singles matches will be taken into consideration under the broader scope of what they mean, then you have to consider what matches you put on very tightly. The show moves in very cyclical booking patterns around these factions, and in particular, around the idea of using tag matches to build up toward the big match, which is why Road To matches have such tag-heavy cards that often repeat the same general beats again and again, and why both past G1 winners have had singles matches in the build up to their WK title match against Okada against "underboos" sorts in CHAOS with the contract on the line. But if you lock down too many belts under one faction then you open a problem where you either have to spread the group in too many directions to be able to effectively book the build-up to it--especially for a small group like Los Ingobernables de Japon who have only five members and two of them are juniors--or you have to spend a lot of time putting on filler matches that can burn through potential match-ups that should have the title as a focus on them instead. With something like Dominion, which has Best of Super Juniors as its lead-in and no real time to work Road To shows that build up in one direction, with a main event featuring guys they wanted to have go in very fresh due to the match they were about to have and a semi-main featuring someone who wasn't available until the day of his match, you don't see that cycle quite as strongly in what's going on. Undercard tags for BOSJ and G1 are more about putting factions up against one another in anticipation of the next night's match rather than setting up for the card, and Dominion was a card that had its major players locked up in too many off-beat directions to be able to set things up well through those matches. Or the short simple answer; when WWE books a faction it's with the intent of that faction rising, falling, and then everyone moving on. New Japan's factions are core foundational elements of their product and the long-term implications have to be considered always. I guess from my shitty, limited perspective, LIJ is the closest to a WWE faction, with everybody being close-knit and clearly on the same page (despite EVIL's outlandish entrance), and maybe I'm looking at things through their perspective. CHAOS is just so massive and so bloated that it's really hard to wrap some context about. LIJ is definitely way more ride-or-die than than other factions are. You kind of see something similar in Kenny's win where the Bucks came out to celebrate with him and Ibushi, but Fale and the Tongans didn't come out, and for that matter even Marty and Hangman kept their distance. Okada rarely has any back-up aside from Gedo. That's just kind of how New Japan books factions; they're more for establishing booking patterns and populating tag matches than they are about hardline groups. Bullet Club was a lot more unified at one point, but now it's bigger and not as show-encompassing. Los Ingobernables can pull it off easier because it's a smaller faction with no dead weight and fleshed out characters, but they're a very special exception to things.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Jun 10, 2018 21:30:38 GMT -5
Amazing show, and while I wish my boy Naito had pulled it off, and I found the story of the match a little weird in how it sort of rocked back and forth in a few weird directions, I have enough faith there's something behind it and I'm willing to see it through. Just an amazing show overall and splitting it up so I didn't have the taste of piss in my mouth left from the Elgin win to stain the major matches. I may not be in a position to opine since I'm not a long-time watcher, but I'm sort of confused as to what's even going on with Naito. If this were North America, he'd be getting set up for a massive "F*** You, F*** the Fans, F*** everybody" turn, to stick it to the people who stuck with him even though he wasn't the plan. Except that's the opposite of the story that they're telling. Naito was a white meat babyface who fell so flat after winning the G1 that he was literally voted out of the Main Event slot of WrestleKingdom by the fans. He promised Osaka on the build to his WK match that he would come back as champ or they could boo him for the rest of his career. First match back after losing to Okada, he was booed out of the building and went on an excursion to Mexico where he had spent a year facing a variety of racial taunts even though he was a technico. His return to CMLL was him joining Los Ingobernables, who are a stable of former fan favorites who fell out of favor with the fans. After bringing the stable with him to Japan, he became the most popular wrestler in the entire country despite openly shitting on the traditions of Puro. His response to getting favored in big matches has been to fall back on his signature moves from before his original turn that never work, because he hasn't come to terms with being accepted for who he's become. American and Mexican wrestling has almost always been booked with a clear divide between who is booked as a face and as a heel, and when the crowd doesn't play along the booking is ruined. In Japanese wrestling, almost everyone can play either role depending on the crowd and match-up so there aren't really turns without someone drastically changing their entire character. Naito's issues aren't with the fans like they would be with American-style booking, they're with himself. The crowd wants to cheer the new Naito, but he still hasn't understood that he's become so successful because of who he's become and not in spite of it. He changed so much because the crowd had already turned on him and ruined his shot at main eventing the Tokyo Dome, and he was able to get that opportunity again because of how much the crowd embraced his new attitude. He's not succeeding because of his own limitations and ignoring what the crowd wants, not because he's listening to the fans.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Jun 10, 2018 22:13:33 GMT -5
IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Championship: Will Ospreay [c] vs. Hiromu Takahashi It’s the best junior in the world! Oh, and Ospreay is there, too. Their match in February was fantastic (****½) and Hiromu is coming off an incredible BOTSJ run. When these two wrestle, I want them to give us a reckless war. Of course, in the opening minutes, Will nearly killed himself with an insane dive off the ramp. However, Will slowed the pace because he realized how much Hiromu thrives in a fast paced match. Hiromu got going, showcasing some heavyweight like strikes that Will did his best to fire back. There were some awesome spots, like Will’s deadlift superplex followed by the Burning Star Press, or Hiromu hitting a Destroyer and going right into the triangle choke. To counter, Ospreay basically folded Hiromu and dropped him on his head. That kicked off an absolutely wild final few minutes. Hiromu countered Strom Breaker into the triangle choke. Though Ospreay didn’t quit, it was enough to wear him down for a corner DVD and Time Bomb to regain the gold in 20:20. Hiromu lost in February, saw Will hurt his neck a few months later, and came back with a newly developed submission to take back Mr. Belt. The match played off that and featured some of the frantic action we want from these two. [****½]Kev - Since the scores were the same, how do their match-ups rank for you (also adding in last year's BotSJ match as well)? I believe they only met here and in February. I'd give this one a slight edge. Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! I'd probably have the Shibata match slightly above Omega/Okada IV, but that might be because I love Shibata and it was his last match.
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
Posts: 85,736
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Post by chrom on Jun 10, 2018 22:22:07 GMT -5
Press Conference announced three title matches for San Francisco show. IWGP Tag, IWGP US and IWGP Heavyweight
Kizuna Road will also have the NEVER and IWGP Jr defended as well
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Post by EZ: Brainy Bae on Jun 10, 2018 22:24:03 GMT -5
What a show. Very excited to see where they go from here, particularly in how the G1 brackets fall out. Okada has to be the overwhelming favorite. Underdogs rarely win the tournament.
As for Okada/Omega IV itself, it was amazing. The chemistry they posses is unreal, it's like watching a dance. My immediate impression is that I prefer last year's Dominion match, but this was the smoothest performance yet. The only thing that worked against this match for my engagement were the stoppage points. The structure of how the falls were laid out were perfect, but it's hard to keep the flow going once the action comes to a stop. Once I rewatch it that may not bug me at all, it could've been the surprise factor. Omega winning is a great chapter in the story and, like others have said, it really feels like the fuse of an explosion abroad for the company.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,337
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Post by Fade on Jun 10, 2018 22:40:00 GMT -5
Press Conference announced three title matches for San Francisco show. IWGP Tag, IWGP US and IWGP Heavyweight Kizuna Road will also have the NEVER and IWGP Jr defended as well Surprised Jericho won't be at the G1 special.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jun 10, 2018 22:41:50 GMT -5
Okay, after reading all that about Naito I have to ask: Isn't it all a bit too inside baseball for the average person? The idea of a guy being disillusioned and cynical but deep down still seeking crowd approval but he ends up failing is a tricky thing to pull off. It is also at odds with matches like the one with Jericho, where Jericho simply was out to beat him down and could care less. The problem with the current Naito (as in tranquilo) is that it's tough to really build a company around a guy that doesn't care. Win or lose the IC title? Meh, it's a junk belt. Lose the main event of WK? A little worse but he'll get over it. If the idea is that he reverts to moves that represent his failed original run, then it's a real Catch 22 because being tranquilo and apathetic is a dead end gimmick in the long run. Being that way did him no good vs. Jericho the other night. So if that approach doesn't work sometimes and reverting to white meat babyface stuff doesn't work...what will?
Contrast that to Omega's journey. His turn to the darkness of the Bullet Club was a desperate move of a struggling wrestler and it paid off. That said, it didn't quite get him to the promised land, since a part of him was empty. Reuniting with Ibushi filled that void, and to some extent it balanced the equation and put him over the top to finally beat Okada. In Omega's case he actually has his cake and may well eat it too since he may well transform the Bullet Club/The Elite into a very different group than what he originally joined. All he has to do is now beat Cody and get him back in line or make amends.
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Convoy
El Dandy
Rusev admits to being a sex addict to large applause.
Posts: 7,576
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Post by Convoy on Jun 10, 2018 22:45:48 GMT -5
Press Conference announced three title matches for San Francisco show. IWGP Tag, IWGP US and IWGP Heavyweight Kizuna Road will also have the NEVER and IWGP Jr defended as well Surprised Jericho won't be at the G1 special. Without checking his tour schedule or whatever, he still could be. Ricochet appeared last year unannounced to make a challenge for the Jr. Tag Titles, as his Lucha Underground contract prevented him from actually wrestling.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jun 10, 2018 22:52:18 GMT -5
Okay, after reading all that about Naito I have to ask: Isn't it all a bit too inside baseball for the average person? The idea of a guy being disillusioned and cynical but deep down still seeking crowd approval but he ends up failing is a tricky thing to pull off. It is also at odds with matches like the one with Jericho, where Jericho simply was out to beat him down and could care less. The problem with the current Naito (as in tranquilo) is that it's tough to really build a company around a guy that doesn't care. Win or lose the IC title? Meh, it's a junk belt. Lose the main event of WK? A little worse but he'll get over it. If the idea is that he reverts to moves that represent his failed original run, then it's a real Catch 22 because being tranquilo and apathetic is a dead end gimmick in the long run. Being that way did him no good vs. Jericho the other night. So if that approach doesn't work sometimes and reverting to white meat babyface stuff doesn't work...what will? Contrast that to Omega's journey. His turn to the darkness of the Bullet Club was a desperate move of a struggling wrestler and it paid off. That said, it didn't quite get him to the promised land, since a part of him was empty. Reuniting with Ibushi filled that void, and to some extent it balanced the equation and put him over the top to finally beat Okada. In Omega's case he actually has his cake and may well eat it too since he may well transform the Bullet Club/The Elite into a very different group than what he originally joined. All he has to do is now beat Cody and get him back in line or make amends. I mean, maybe? But as much as people are trying to build up this international expansion, NJPW is primarily focused with Japanese viewers and and the storytelling with Naito's arc is by-the-numbers exactly the type of subtle storytelling Japanese professional wrestling audiences want to see. The entire point is that he isn't quite as apathetic as he lets on, and the affection he's received has thrown him off. As for it being a dead-end gimmick and not a guy you can build around...lol. He's demonstrably the most popular guy in the company (your retelling of the BC story, btw, isn't exactly anymore layered than the whole Stardust Genius-LIJ arc). Even though I think this next step is unnecessary and they should have closed the deal at WK, it's evident that they are going with him making some kind of change or embracing something that allows him to finally break through. It's why they threw the international audience the bone of the over-the-top BC angle and let those guys run wild with it.
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Post by Tenshigure on Jun 10, 2018 22:57:56 GMT -5
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