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Post by The Captain on Jan 18, 2022 17:55:38 GMT -5
They've always done that. Granted, most of the time they've not been quite so on-the-nose about it, but socio-political commentary has been a Trek staple virtually from the get go. I may not have explained it as well as I could have. Yes, there have been social commentaries given from the beginning, but it's usually been from the perception of an alien race, usually it's shown that Earth has moved on from certain perceptions, especially in the 60's show. At the end of the day, the presentation was always that the future was going to be a positive environmental change. I know there isn't a lot of drama to be wrung from that concept, but they avoided giving the show a dark tone. And like I said, there isn't anything wrong with dark, but I think Star Trek shouldn't be a bleak dystopian nightmare world. And yet in DS9, all it took was a single terrorist attack and the threat of a Dominion invasion for the Federation's democracy to be in serious jeopardy from a military coup. Some of the most powerful episodes of DS9's involved the humans bending, if not outright breaking the perceived morals of the Federation and Earth for what they saw as a greater good. And not just the Section 31 black ops group. Sisko himself was party to knowingly deceiving the entire Romulan Empire into joining the Dominion War on their side, which included the assassination of a Romulan Senator who knew too much.
TNG also had some great episodes that showed that humans of the 24th century aren't as enlightened as they like to believe, like Measure Of A Man and The Drumhead.
I think Star Trek tends to be reflective of the era it's made in. The only reason why shows like Discovery and Picard seem bleak is because we live in a pretty bleak time. TOS had its own parables to Vietnam and the situation between the Federation and the Klingons being one flashpoint away from turning into a devastating war was pretty much the Cold War with the Klingons serving as the Soviet stand-ins. You also had episodes about civil unrest like the very blatant "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield." Could current shows stand to be less hamfisted about it and explore these issues in more clever ways? Sure. But I also think say, Picard would be doing itself a disservice if it didn't explore the cracks in the Federation facade that were formed in DS9, Voyager, and even TNG.
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thechase
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Post by thechase on Jan 21, 2022 13:52:22 GMT -5
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Post by thechase on Jan 26, 2022 16:13:03 GMT -5
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Jan 26, 2022 16:52:43 GMT -5
I may not have explained it as well as I could have. Yes, there have been social commentaries given from the beginning, but it's usually been from the perception of an alien race, usually it's shown that Earth has moved on from certain perceptions, especially in the 60's show. At the end of the day, the presentation was always that the future was going to be a positive environmental change. I know there isn't a lot of drama to be wrung from that concept, but they avoided giving the show a dark tone. And like I said, there isn't anything wrong with dark, but I think Star Trek shouldn't be a bleak dystopian nightmare world. And yet in DS9, all it took was a single terrorist attack and the threat of a Dominion invasion for the Federation's democracy to be in serious jeopardy from a military coup. Some of the most powerful episodes of DS9's involved the humans bending, if not outright breaking the perceived morals of the Federation and Earth for what they saw as a greater good. And not just the Section 31 black ops group. Sisko himself was party to knowingly deceiving the entire Romulan Empire into joining the Dominion War on their side, which included the assassination of a Romulan Senator who knew too much.
TNG also had some great episodes that showed that humans of the 24th century aren't as enlightened as they like to believe, like Measure Of A Man and The Drumhead. I think Star Trek tends to be reflective of the era it's made in. The only reason why shows like Discovery and Picard seem bleak is because we live in a pretty bleak time. TOS had its own parables to Vietnam and the situation between the Federation and the Klingons being one flashpoint away from turning into a devastating war was pretty much the Cold War with the Klingons serving as the Soviet stand-ins. You also had episodes about civil unrest like the very blatant "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield." Could current shows stand to be less hamfisted about it and explore these issues in more clever ways? Sure. But I also think say, Picard would be doing itself a disservice if it didn't explore the cracks in the Federation facade that were formed in DS9, Voyager, and even TNG.
I can't think of a single better one line than Sisko's, "It's easy to be a Saint in paradise." The line stands on its own, as well as turns Star Trek's vaunted critical eye and social commentary on itself. |
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 26, 2022 18:29:13 GMT -5
And yet in DS9, all it took was a single terrorist attack and the threat of a Dominion invasion for the Federation's democracy to be in serious jeopardy from a military coup. Some of the most powerful episodes of DS9's involved the humans bending, if not outright breaking the perceived morals of the Federation and Earth for what they saw as a greater good. And not just the Section 31 black ops group. Sisko himself was party to knowingly deceiving the entire Romulan Empire into joining the Dominion War on their side, which included the assassination of a Romulan Senator who knew too much.
TNG also had some great episodes that showed that humans of the 24th century aren't as enlightened as they like to believe, like Measure Of A Man and The Drumhead. I think Star Trek tends to be reflective of the era it's made in. The only reason why shows like Discovery and Picard seem bleak is because we live in a pretty bleak time. TOS had its own parables to Vietnam and the situation between the Federation and the Klingons being one flashpoint away from turning into a devastating war was pretty much the Cold War with the Klingons serving as the Soviet stand-ins. You also had episodes about civil unrest like the very blatant "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield." Could current shows stand to be less hamfisted about it and explore these issues in more clever ways? Sure. But I also think say, Picard would be doing itself a disservice if it didn't explore the cracks in the Federation facade that were formed in DS9, Voyager, and even TNG.
I can't think of a single better one line than Sisko's, "It's easy to be a Saint in paradise." The line stands on its own, as well as turns Star Trek's vaunted critical eye and social commentary on itself. That's what happens when you have talented Trek writers like Ira Stephen Behr, who can use bleakness as a cautionary tale. The mindset of the modern Trek writer is that bleakness looks cool. |
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Post by prettynami on Jan 26, 2022 18:52:01 GMT -5
Personally I just think the bleakness worked in stuff like DS9 because everything around them was all rainbows and sunshine. I guess that time in Trek has passed. When you live in a world of crap you stop being able to smell it (Which I guess may be why it has to be so grim and dark for some people - because they live in a real world that perhaps desensitizes them to it in fiction). To me the issue isn't that there is some grim stuff. It's that everything is basically grim - particularly in Picard. At the end of the first season I was left wondering why I should care about anything that was going on because the characters in it had sucked the life out of me.
Picard is sorta painful to watch - I don't mind that it exists, it's just not my cup of tea.. Though I did love the episode with Riker's family and I thought some of the ways they developed Romulan culture was neat! I'll give the second season a go when it on DVD mostly because I am interested in seeing what kind of backflips they do to give the show anywhere to go.
I actually didn't mind the tone of Discovery - mostly because the characters in it were still optimistic and striving towards a better future. I didn't even mind the 3rd season because it had a certain "the spark that made the Federation great is still there" feel - and again optimism with a dash of exploration of such a different world (Oh, and is it just me or did it feel like a series finale? Is there gonna be a 4th season?). The only parts that drove me crazy about it was how everything had to be epic and how Michael would swoop in any time a more minor character would be having any sort of development and have to filter the experience through her (And I say that as a person that actually generally likes her character and her relationship to other characters on the show - particularly Georgio, Sarek, and Spock). I guess the epic stuff is sort of part and parcel with the "long form" tv shows or whatever we get these days - episodic stuff really gave the secondary characters a lot of room to grow in the older shows. That and the generally larger number of episodes.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 26, 2022 23:49:54 GMT -5
Conceptually, Discovery is just throwing shit at a wall. There's no overall vision. I've heard very little about Prodigy, but I gather it's a sort of sequel to Voyager involving a group of aliens or something. All of which sounds terrible. I loathe and detest the Abramsverse reboot. A show based on Picard should have been an animated series based on his time as captain of the Stargazer. Lower Decks, with a better name, should have been a straight up post TNG series, without the silly comedy elements. They could have even retained the basic concept of a support ship rather than a major one. Real world social issues can be explored of course, but they require subtle treatment. Duet for example is a perfect example. An allegory for war crimes, but told beautifully in a Trek context, most of it simply with dialogue between two characters with a profound ending. If that episode was made today, the Cardassian would be wearing a Nazi uniform, Kira would have been holding a menorah, and Michael Spock would have saved the day by going back in time and single handedly stopping the Holocaust, while saying "f***" and shining a light in the audience's eyes, all playing out over a dozen episodes and at least twenty mystery box red herrings.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Jan 27, 2022 0:02:51 GMT -5
I'm kind of just amazed this franchise has managed to be all downhill from Voyager.
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thechase
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Post by thechase on Jan 27, 2022 2:24:49 GMT -5
Conceptually, Discovery is just throwing shit at a wall. There's no overall vision. I've heard very little about Prodigy, but I gather it's a sort of sequel to Voyager involving a group of aliens or something. If you've seen Space Cases, you've seen Prodigy. |
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 27, 2022 2:57:49 GMT -5
I'm kind of just amazed this franchise has managed to be all downhill from Voyager. Voyager betrayed its concept from the start. It was never believable that they were truly struggling in the Delta Quadrant. The ship looked fine, mostly because Paramount used stock footage and therefore refused to show any progressive damage to the ship throughout seven seasons, the interiors were lush and everyone had plenty of comforts and infinite amounts of shuttles in that little bay. They were even able to build the Delta Flyer, and I vaguely remember they might have built two. Aside from Tom Paris and the Doctor, the character were the drizzling shits. Add Rick Berman's tendency to blanderise everything, which Ira Behr successfully prevented him from doing on DS9, and it added up to mediocrity. Enterprise failed because it looked too advanced to be a TOS prequel. To successfully execute that concept, you need the TOS 1960's aesthetic, which they ironically proved in their Mirror Universe episode. Once again, the characters were shit, and it basically killed Trek's main universe, which was already in deep shit after the disaster that was Star Trek Nemesis (all the TNG movies were terrible IMO), which led to Abrams and then Kurtzman....sigh. The franchise is creatively dead. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 2, 2022 18:58:33 GMT -5
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Mar 3, 2022 10:06:31 GMT -5
Conceptually, Discovery is just throwing shit at a wall. There's no overall vision. I've heard very little about Prodigy, but I gather it's a sort of sequel to Voyager involving a group of aliens or something. If you've seen Space Cases, you've seen Prodigy. Literally all I remember about Space Cases is having a crush on rainbow hair girl Before having a crush on her again as Kaylee on Firefly |
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Post by The Captain on Mar 3, 2022 15:55:12 GMT -5
If you've seen Space Cases, you've seen Prodigy. Literally all I remember about Space Cases is having a crush on rainbow hair girl Before having a crush on her again as Kaylee on Firefly Wait, that was the same person?! |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 3, 2022 16:02:54 GMT -5
Wait, that was the same person?! Yup.  |
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Post by The Captain on Mar 4, 2022 0:53:39 GMT -5
Apparently some ships that originated in Star Trek Online ended up having cameos in the first episode. As someone who used to play STO and liked a lot of their original ship designs, that's really cool.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 4, 2022 1:25:04 GMT -5
Apparently some ships that originated in Star Trek Online ended up having cameos in the first episode. As someone who used to play STO and liked a lot of their original ship designs, that's really cool. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}Yup, there's a Gagarin-class, a Reliant-class, and a Sutherland-class. Plus, according to the ship's registry, Raffi and Elnor are serving on the O.G. Excelsior, which would be about 116 years old at that point. Also the first appearance of a Sovereign-class since ST: Nemesis, which makes me hope the Enterprise-E shows up at some point.  The Stargazer is Sagan-class. A definite improvement on season one's copypasta fleet. |
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Mar 4, 2022 3:06:25 GMT -5
Apparently some ships that originated in Star Trek Online ended up having cameos in the first episode. As someone who used to play STO and liked a lot of their original ship designs, that's really cool. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Yup, there's a Gagarin-class, a Reliant-class, and a Sutherland-class. Plus, according to the ship's registry, Raffi and Elnor are serving on the O.G. Excelsior, which would be about 116 years old at that point. Also the first appearance of a Sovereign-class since ST: Nemesis, which makes me hope the Enterprise-E shows up at some point. The Stargazer is Sagan-class. A definite improvement on season one's copypasta fleet. {Spoiler}Also the Titan's Luna-class ship type is seen in live action for the first time. |
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Mar 4, 2022 3:51:50 GMT -5
I figure that this is safe to keep out of spoilers since he was in trailers and such:
Anyone else think that, if he had a British accent to go with the rest of the cast, DeLancie in this look as Q could have worked as a version of The Master on Doctor Who?
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 4, 2022 4:34:51 GMT -5
I figure that this is safe to keep out of spoilers since he was in trailers and such: Anyone else think that, if he had a British accent to go with the rest of the cast, DeLancie in this look as Q could have worked as a version of The Master on Doctor Who? I have a hard time believing there isn't much John DeLancie couldn't make work. I think he's genuinely one of the most underrated actors currently working. |
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Post by The Captain on Mar 4, 2022 16:07:23 GMT -5
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Yup, there's a Gagarin-class, a Reliant-class, and a Sutherland-class. Plus, according to the ship's registry, Raffi and Elnor are serving on the O.G. Excelsior, which would be about 116 years old at that point. Also the first appearance of a Sovereign-class since ST: Nemesis, which makes me hope the Enterprise-E shows up at some point. The Stargazer is Sagan-class. A definite improvement on season one's copypasta fleet. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Also the Titan's Luna-class ship type is seen in live action for the first time. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}It was seen in Lower Decks, which is still considered canon. But yeah, seeing it in Live Action was pretty cool, too.
I don't know what the status of the Enterprise-E is in ST: Picard's time, but if it's decommissioned or destroyed, I'd love to see the Odyssey-class Enterprise F from STO make an appearance. And I love seeing the ship variety after how lacking it was in Picard S1. |
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