Burst
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Post by Burst on Mar 10, 2022 19:55:16 GMT -5
I'll be surprised but not surprised if somewhere people are complaining about Voyager now canonically being retired as soon as it was back to Earth. You figure after literally everything that ship has been through, even with the various Borg and jerry-rigged tech, it's probably this close to falling apart like the Bluesmobile from someone looking at it the wrong way. With newer CGI I'd pretty much expect it to look more like how utterly battered the Galactica was at the end of that series.
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Mar 10, 2022 19:55:25 GMT -5
They never say it's on Earth (could be assumed it is but who knows), but I could see if it has to be big enough it being on a whole different planet. I mean, I'm sure Mars was terraformed and was pretty much a walk down the street considering transportation in 2401. If not there, possibly an abandoned section of Earth that was messed up in World War III. In some of the expanded universe novels it's generally listed as being in San Fransisco, and in the Voyager finale the alternate future places it at the Presido of San Fransisco. I guess that makes sense given the Academy is there. Though might get crowded after a bit if they have whole Starships |
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CMWaters
Ozymandius
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Post by CMWaters on Mar 10, 2022 19:57:36 GMT -5
I'll be surprised but not surprised if somewhere people are complaining about Voyager now canonically being retired as soon as it was back to Earth. You figure after literally everything that ship has been through, even with the various Borg and jerry-rigged tech, it's probably this close to falling apart like the Bluesmobile from someone looking at it the wrong way. With newer CGI I'd pretty much expect it to look more like how utterly battered the Galactica was at the end of that series. Plus cleaning up any lingering Neelix stuff... And it still gets a more dignified end than Enterprise-D got (seriously, that fight was just a sad showing on the D's part, even with the modulation of shields thing). |
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Burst
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Post by Burst on Mar 10, 2022 19:58:12 GMT -5
I guess that makes sense given the Academy is there. Though might get crowded after a bit if they have whole Starships I get that San Francisco is pretty much iconic for Trek, but I swear they go back to that well as badly as Star Wars keeps going back to Tatooine. Just for once I'd like to see something significant in Federation-era Earth, Starfleet-related or otherwise, based somewhere that's -not- in California. |
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Mar 10, 2022 20:01:46 GMT -5
I guess that makes sense given the Academy is there. Though might get crowded after a bit if they have whole Starships I get that San Francisco is pretty much iconic for Trek, but I swear they go back to that well as badly as Star Wars keeps going back to Tatooine. Just for once I'd like to see something significant in Federation-era Earth, Starfleet-related or otherwise, based somewhere that's -not- in California. Well, slightly before Federation, but there was that incident at the end of season 2/start of season 3 of Enterprise with the prototype Xindi weapon that went through Florida down to South America. |
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Burst
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Post by Burst on Mar 10, 2022 20:02:47 GMT -5
And it still gets a more dignified end than Enterprise-D got (seriously, that fight was just a sad showing on the D's part, even with the modulation of shields thing). The more time goes since Generations, the more I'm just completely unimpressed with everything that movie did, particularly with how hard the ramifications for canon were versus, say, Insurrection. The incompetence of the Enterprise-B crew and Starfleet for sending the ship out like that, the incredulity of there being literally no other ships around (seriously, I thought we left 'only ship in the quadrant' back in TOS proper)... The completely unnecessary deaths of Picard's family that then just makes him look like a cold bastard when he just completely ignores them when choosing where and when to come out of the Nexus... The Enterprise-D biting it via residual special effects from Star Trek VI... And yeah, there's a reason "Dropped a bridge on him" is still called that on TV Tropes. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 10, 2022 20:07:52 GMT -5
I'll be surprised but not surprised if somewhere people are complaining about Voyager now canonically being retired as soon as it was back to Earth. You figure after literally everything that ship has been through, even with the various Borg and jerry-rigged tech, it's probably this close to falling apart like the Bluesmobile from someone looking at it the wrong way. With newer CGI I'd pretty much expect it to look more like how utterly battered the Galactica was at the end of that series. There's been some bellyaching, but Star Trek fans love to complain as much as Star Wars fans, so it's no surprise. But it makes sense. When it gets back to Earth, Voyager is riddled with Borg tech and tech from the future. Section 31 and Temporal Investigations would be swarming all over it, and the story of the ship itself would make it one of the most iconic ships in human history, so of course Starfleet wouldn't take the risk of losing it during the course of a post-return mission. Roll out the Voyager-A (which was obviously done at some point, with the existence of the Voyager-J in Discovery) and call it a day. |
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Mar 10, 2022 20:33:23 GMT -5
And it still gets a more dignified end than Enterprise-D got (seriously, that fight was just a sad showing on the D's part, even with the modulation of shields thing). The more time goes since Generations, the more I'm just completely unimpressed with everything that movie did, particularly with how hard the ramifications for canon were versus, say, Insurrection. The incompetence of the Enterprise-B crew and Starfleet for sending the ship out like that, the incredulity of there being literally no other ships around (seriously, I thought we left 'only ship in the quadrant' back in TOS proper)... The completely unnecessary deaths of Picard's family that then just makes him look like a cold bastard when he just completely ignores them when choosing where and when to come out of the Nexus... The Enterprise-D biting it via residual special effects from Star Trek VI... And yeah, there's a reason "Dropped a bridge on him" is still called that on TV Tropes. I'll always have a warm and fuzzy nostalgia feeling regarding Generations, but yeah your criticisms are very valid. The one I'd argue is that Picard only rejected his family when he realized they weren't real. And while the movies always played fast and loose with reusing visual effects shots, I think the worst was reusing a shot of the Enterpise from the television show, in the transition to the stellar cartography scene. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 10, 2022 20:43:11 GMT -5
The one I'd argue is that Picard only rejected his family when he realized they weren't real. I think he means rather than choose to exit the Nexus prior to the deaths of his brother and nephew so he could prevent it from happening (before, presumably, arresting Soran on the observatory before the Romulans show up), but then there wouldn't be a movie. Really, kind of a stupid plot point to have where a character can choose to go back to any point in time to stop the villain and doesn't choose to go back to before said villain has a chance to put his plan into motion. |
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Post by Larryhausen on Mar 10, 2022 20:43:51 GMT -5
I guess that makes sense given the Academy is there. Though might get crowded after a bit if they have whole Starships I get that San Francisco is pretty much iconic for Trek, but I swear they go back to that well as badly as Star Wars keeps going back to Tatooine. Just for once I'd like to see something significant in Federation-era Earth, Starfleet-related or otherwise, based somewhere that's -not- in California. San Francisco is only like 7x7 miles wide, so I can't see a starship museum being set there. I'd imagine, besides legendary hero ships of name, that there's at least one of every class there. So, at least one or two Constitutions, at least one Excelsior, etc, etc. I'm thinking the Fleet museum is it's own Starbase resort type thing. Or it replaced the state of New Jersey, since it's canonical that Jersey doesn't exist by the 24th century. |
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Burst
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Post by Burst on Mar 10, 2022 20:44:14 GMT -5
I'll always have a warm and fuzzy nostalgia feeling regarding Generations, but yeah your criticisms are very valid. The one I'd argue is that Picard only rejected his family when he realized they weren't real. And while the movies always played fast and loose with reusing visual effects shots, I think the worst was reusing a shot of the Enterpise from the television show, in the transition to the stellar cartography scene. The family from the Nexus, yes, but unless I missed something, I was under the impression that his brother and nephew that were introduced in TNG were killed off via housefire early in the movie seemingly just to give him something to ruminate about, and they gave no indication that that was undone since it happened well before the point he chose to come back from the Nexus. Also, for me the most flagrant reuse is the Duras sisters' Bird-of-Prey exploding, even with it cut differently to try to minimize the chance of you noticing, even though it's literally from the previous movie. |
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Mar 10, 2022 20:51:32 GMT -5
I'll always have a warm and fuzzy nostalgia feeling regarding Generations, but yeah your criticisms are very valid. The one I'd argue is that Picard only rejected his family when he realized they weren't real. And while the movies always played fast and loose with reusing visual effects shots, I think the worst was reusing a shot of the Enterpise from the television show, in the transition to the stellar cartography scene. The family from the Nexus, yes, but unless I missed something, I was under the impression that his brother and nephew that were introduced in TNG were killed off via housefire early in the movie seemingly just to give him something to ruminate about, and they gave no indication that that was undone since it happened well before the point he chose to come back from the Nexus. Also, for me the most flagrant reuse is the Duras sisters' Bird-of-Prey exploding, even with it cut differently to try to minimize the chance of you noticing, even though it's literally from the previous movie. Ah, I did think you just meant the Nexus family. As A Dilapidated Catamaran alao pointed out, Picard could have gone back to prevent that too, but then why stop there, he could have gone back to prevent his assimilation, prevent WWIII, prevent etc etc. But that he didn't even consider his immediate family did make him look rather cold, I had never thought of that. And the BoP exploding shot was very noticeable, but remember II reused the entire Enterprise in space dock scene from I. I think that II just being so good otherwise, many fans never complained about it. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 10, 2022 20:52:46 GMT -5
The family from the Nexus, yes, but unless I missed something, I was under the impression that his brother and nephew that were introduced in TNG were killed off via housefire early in the movie seemingly just to give him something to ruminate about, and they gave no indication that that was undone since it happened well before the point he chose to come back from the Nexus. Yeah, it wasn't undone. Picard literally says he is the last of his bloodline in the first episode of this season, so unless he and Laris have half-android, half-Romulan babies, Picard's distress in Generations over his family's impending extinction now that he's the last one left will come to pass. |
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CMWaters
Ozymandius
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Post by CMWaters on Mar 10, 2022 21:05:11 GMT -5
The more time goes since Generations, the more I'm just completely unimpressed with everything that movie did, particularly with how hard the ramifications for canon were versus, say, Insurrection. The incompetence of the Enterprise-B crew and Starfleet for sending the ship out like that, the incredulity of there being literally no other ships around (seriously, I thought we left 'only ship in the quadrant' back in TOS proper)... The completely unnecessary deaths of Picard's family that then just makes him look like a cold bastard when he just completely ignores them when choosing where and when to come out of the Nexus... The Enterprise-D biting it via residual special effects from Star Trek VI... And yeah, there's a reason "Dropped a bridge on him" is still called that on TV Tropes. I'll always have a warm and fuzzy nostalgia feeling regarding Generations, but yeah your criticisms are very valid. The one I'd argue is that Picard only rejected his family when he realized they weren't real. And while the movies always played fast and loose with reusing visual effects shots, I think the worst was reusing a shot of the Enterpise from the television show, in the transition to the stellar cartography scene. I just take that as a few things why they didn't splurge for a new shot for that: 1)The ship was done after this episode anyway. 2)Short scene and it took place of an actual scene with Beverly and Data 3)A lot of new shot stuff was already taken up by the destruction of D (keep in mind this was still in the models days before CGI ships) 4)IIRC, and this could be misinformation I admit, but I heard that Berman HATED the Enterprise-D design and probably want as little to do with it as possible. Maybe even had a bit of glee (depending on how closely he followed the series at the time) at destroying a Galaxy-Class on Deep Space Nine shortly after TNG's end. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 10, 2022 21:07:07 GMT -5
On-topic, I'm really enjoying the season so far. It's still very much Nu Trek, but everything just fits better than it did in the first season. {Spoiler}Kinda disappointed we got a Sisko tease that didn't come to anything. I think we can safely assume that guy can definitely "live with it." |
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Mar 10, 2022 21:10:12 GMT -5
On-topic, I'm really enjoying the season so far. It's still very much Nu Trek, but everything just fits better than it did in the first season. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}Kinda disappointed we got a Sisko tease that didn't come to anything. I think we can safely assume that guy can definitely "live with it." Not sure if you're referencing an actor or someone else with that... {Spoiler}Meanwhile, wondering if this is actually Benjamin (ranking would work yes) or if in this timeline Jake was actually forced into service and actually did pretty well. And if the former, I wonder what The Prophets thought about all this... |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 10, 2022 21:18:21 GMT -5
IIRC, and this could be misinformation I admit, but I heard that Berman HATED the Enterprise-D design and probably want as little to do with it as possible. Maybe even had a bit of glee (depending on how closely he followed the series at the time) at destroying a Galaxy-Class on Deep Space Nine shortly after TNG's end. The saucer crash-landing had been an idea that had been cut from a season 6 episode due to budget, so it was inevitable that they'd put it in a movie. The producers in general, not just Berman (as well as Paramount's execs), felt that the Galaxy-class design had become quite dated and, knowing that a second movie was guaranteed regardless of how well Generations performed, made the call to destroy it to get a fresh start for First Contact. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 10, 2022 21:26:20 GMT -5
Not sure if you're referencing an actor or someone else with that... {Spoiler}Meanwhile, wondering if this is actually Benjamin (ranking would work yes) or if in this timeline Jake was actually forced into service and actually did pretty well. And if the former, I wonder what The Prophets thought about all this... "In the Pale Moonlight" reference. {Spoiler}Apparently someone involved with the show has confirmed it was Benjamin. Haven't confirmed that, myself, but as you say, the rank checks out.
Plus they're going back in time to the same year and same state as the Bell Riots from the DS9 two-parter "Past Tense". Could be some foreshadowing. |
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Mar 10, 2022 21:28:48 GMT -5
IIRC, and this could be misinformation I admit, but I heard that Berman HATED the Enterprise-D design and probably want as little to do with it as possible. Maybe even had a bit of glee (depending on how closely he followed the series at the time) at destroying a Galaxy-Class on Deep Space Nine shortly after TNG's end. The saucer crash-landing had been an idea that had been cut from a season 6 episode due to budget, so it was inevitable that they'd put it in a movie. The producers in general, not just Berman (as well as Paramount's execs), felt that the Galaxy-class design had become quite dated and, knowing that a second movie was guaranteed regardless of how well Generations performed, made the call to destroy it to get a fresh start for First Contact. Speaking of the D, I don't know if it was the aspect ratio or how it was filmed, but damn it looked massive in Generations. I was taken aback when it first swept onto the screen approaching the observatory, and later during the battle with the bird of prey. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 10, 2022 21:39:58 GMT -5
The saucer crash-landing had been an idea that had been cut from a season 6 episode due to budget, so it was inevitable that they'd put it in a movie. The producers in general, not just Berman (as well as Paramount's execs), felt that the Galaxy-class design had become quite dated and, knowing that a second movie was guaranteed regardless of how well Generations performed, made the call to destroy it to get a fresh start for First Contact. Speaking of the D, I don't know if it was the aspect ratio or how it was filmed, but damn it looked massive in Generations. I was taken aback when it first swept onto the screen approaching the observatory, and later during the battle with the bird of prey. That was one of the criticisms Paramount had. They wanted something smaller and sleeker for the movies. Personally, I loved how the D looked in Generations. Probably my favourite ship in any of the movies. |
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