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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 21:55:01 GMT -5
I liked William Regal's black singlet, and even thought it looked cool on him.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Sept 4, 2018 22:39:40 GMT -5
I've seen it argued around places, not necessarily here but I have seen it. Yea, well they are wrong Okada is clearly superior. Naito is always going to be Orton, Punk, Batista in regards to Okada's Cena. He will get his time to shine as number 1 at points but it will never be permanent However, what Naito does have over him his the popularity factor tho that isn't the end all be all but it damn sure helps when he finally does get his time to be the Number 1 guy for a spell
I dunno why Naito > Okada is a weird opinion? In terms of push I get it but Naito was regarded as better dating back to Stardust days. It’s all subjective but maybe I’m not as plugged into the narrative as I thought I was lol
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petef3
Don Corleone
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Post by petef3 on Sept 4, 2018 23:00:37 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels is maybe a top-50 worker all-time. Maybe. Which is no small praise at all. But the idea of him being the undisputed GOAT is laughable. His comeback produced more bad than good. Bret isn't the undisputed GOAT either, but he comes closer than Shawn--other than take bumps, he did literally everything better than Shawn. Psychology, selling, offense, pacing, carrying, working with Kevin Nash, drawing money, and interviews.
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Post by thetower52 on Sept 4, 2018 23:09:05 GMT -5
The vast majority of technical wrestlers are f***ing terrible and make me want to watch the grass grow.
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Sept 4, 2018 23:10:22 GMT -5
f*** that. Technical wrestling *is* entertaining, if you actually know how to work and exchange holds (that means more than doing an arm drag into an armbar and then the opponent gets up after an arbitrary amount of time and walks you to the ropes).
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 5, 2018 5:51:02 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels is maybe a top-50 worker all-time. Maybe. Which is no small praise at all. But the idea of him being the undisputed GOAT is laughable. His comeback produced more bad than good. Bret isn't the undisputed GOAT either, but he comes closer than Shawn--other than take bumps, he did literally everything better than Shawn. Psychology, selling, offense, pacing, carrying, working with Kevin Nash, drawing money, and interviews. I’ve never put Shawn as the best worker ever because he never drew money. Actually the period of time he was the main guy, the wwf had their worst years financially. The best thing that ever happened to the company was when he got injured and left for more than three years. Ok here goes another take, Zack Sabre Jr bores me. I just don’t get him. Watching him wrestle Keith Lee, who was three times his size was pathetic and exposed the business as fake. It literally looked like a five year old trying to wrestle his father. Allegedly Regal and Finlay hate his style, I agree with them. And put on some weight please, he has the Greg Gagne body type curse.
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Post by celtics543 on Sept 5, 2018 6:03:25 GMT -5
Technical wrestling ability is BY FAR the least important part of being a successful professional wrestler. The best of all time, Austin, Hogan, Cena, Rock, Andre, weren't great technical wrestlers during their hottest period. Those that were, Hart, Savage, Michaels, Angle, all needed great characters to put them over the top as main event level talents.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 5, 2018 6:06:22 GMT -5
Technical wrestling ability is BY FAR the least important part of being a successful professional wrestler. The best of all time, Austin, Hogan, Cena, Rock, Andre, weren't great technical wrestlers during their hottest period. Those that were, Hart, Savage, Michaels, Angle, all needed great characters to put them over the top as main event level talents. It’s important to the heel that’s leading the match and putting them over. The babyface just needs to fire up and kick ass.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Sept 5, 2018 6:25:36 GMT -5
And in the years since retirement, Hart has become an unbearable curmudgeon. Think of how his life has been since then: The concussion robbed him of retiring the way he would have wanted The stroke His cancer battle The civil war that is what's left of the Hart family The numerous friends, family and peers he's lost, in many cases, long before their time. Can you REALLY blame the guy?
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 5, 2018 6:44:03 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels is maybe a top-50 worker all-time. Maybe. Which is no small praise at all. But the idea of him being the undisputed GOAT is laughable. His comeback produced more bad than good. Bret isn't the undisputed GOAT either, but he comes closer than Shawn--other than take bumps, he did literally everything better than Shawn. Psychology, selling, offense, pacing, carrying, working with Kevin Nash, drawing money, and interviews. I’ve never put Shawn as the best worker ever because he never drew money. Actually the period of time he was the main guy, the wwf had their worst years financially. The best thing that ever happened to the company was when he got injured and left for more than three years. Ok here goes another take, Zack Sabre Jr bores me. I just don’t get him. Watching him wrestle Keith Lee, who was three times his size was pathetic and exposed the business as fake. It literally looked like a five year old trying to wrestle his father. Allegedly Regal and Finlay hate his style, I agree with them. And put on some weight please, he has the Greg Gagne body type curse. ZSJ is awful. Way too often, his opponent has to just lay there motionless while ZSJ grabs their arm and walks around in circles. It's boring as shit.
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Post by RedSmile on Sept 5, 2018 7:01:39 GMT -5
Some of you guys are trying WAY too hard in here.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,403
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 5, 2018 7:07:41 GMT -5
I’ve never put Shawn as the best worker ever because he never drew money. Actually the period of time he was the main guy, the wwf had their worst years financially. The best thing that ever happened to the company was when he got injured and left for more than three years. Ok here goes another take, Zack Sabre Jr bores me. I just don’t get him. Watching him wrestle Keith Lee, who was three times his size was pathetic and exposed the business as fake. It literally looked like a five year old trying to wrestle his father. Allegedly Regal and Finlay hate his style, I agree with them. And put on some weight please, he has the Greg Gagne body type curse. ZSJ is awful. Way too often, his opponent has to just lay there motionless while ZSJ grabs their arm and walks around in circles. It's boring as shit. I said it many times during the CWC. Jack Gallagher does the "British technical master" thing a lot better. Still tying people in knots, but more physical charisma so you could see how things worked and he was able to do it. Besides being a better personality overall.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 5, 2018 8:11:32 GMT -5
And in the years since retirement, Hart has become an unbearable curmudgeon. Think of how his life has been since then: The concussion robbed him of retiring the way he would have wanted The stroke His cancer battle The civil war that is what's left of the Hart family The numerous friends, family and peers he's lost, in many cases, long before their time. Can you REALLY blame the guy? His brother also died because of a stupid meaningless stunt. While he was at the hospital recovering from the stroke, his brother Bruce tried to shoot him on his hospital bed with a tv crew. Luckily Bret was walking into therapy with a nurse. His kid nephew, Teddy Hart’s brother, died because of a weird virus. His siblings dragged his sick father to a wwe show just to beg Vince for jobs. His sister Diana wrote a book so filled with lies and bullshit that Owen’s widow sued her. Diana had to admit that she used a ghost writer. His best friend and confidant Jim Neidhart, developed Alzheimer at an early age and recently died. I’d be bitter too.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 5, 2018 8:12:01 GMT -5
ZSJ is awful. Way too often, his opponent has to just lay there motionless while ZSJ grabs their arm and walks around in circles. It's boring as shit. I said it many times during the CWC. Jack Gallagher does the "British technical master" thing a lot better. Still tying people in knots, but more physical charisma so you could see how things worked and he was able to do it. Besides being a better personality overall. Gallagher also looks like he hits the gym...
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Sept 5, 2018 8:40:03 GMT -5
Think of how his life has been since then: The concussion robbed him of retiring the way he would have wanted The stroke His cancer battle The civil war that is what's left of the Hart family The numerous friends, family and peers he's lost, in many cases, long before their time. Can you REALLY blame the guy? His brother also died because of a stupid meaningless stunt. While he was at the hospital recovering from the stroke, his brother Bruce tried to shoot him on his hospital bed with a tv crew. Luckily Bret was walking into therapy with a nurse. His kid nephew, Teddy Hart’s brother, died because of a weird virus. His siblings dragged his sick father to a wwe show just to beg Vince for jobs. His sister Diana wrote a book so filled with lies and bullshit that Owen’s widow sued her. Diana had to admit that she used a ghost writer. His best friend and confidant Jim Neidhart, developed Alzheimer at an early age and recently died. I’d be bitter too. Both his parents died, his best friends in wrestling like Rude, Bulldog and Hennig all died young in a relatively short space of time as his personal life and health were collapsing. He went through a decade of hell where anyone would come out the other side with a chip on their shoulder, but it's somehow all Bret's fault he's carmudgeonly at times, and not the actual brain damage, grief, betrayal and misery he went through. Also people keep on asking him the same questions in interviews about the same guys or events, so get similar answers... Which people who dislike Bret point at and say, 'oh he never has anything nice to say' except all the times he praises modern wrestlers, guys from back in the day or even guys like Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels. You know what? I like that Bret is honest about wrestling, that his opinions don't change because the WWE are giving him money. He doesn't attack people or defend them based on who us currently in the WWE's good graces, he's not a weathervane like Flair or Hogan, or a guy who claims Vince can do no wrong like Bruce Prichard. He doesn't hate everything like Corny, his attacks are usually accompanied by praise for active guys he has no relationship with. Bret is true to himself and it's wonderful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 9:14:55 GMT -5
His brother also died because of a stupid meaningless stunt. While he was at the hospital recovering from the stroke, his brother Bruce tried to shoot him on his hospital bed with a tv crew. Luckily Bret was walking into therapy with a nurse. His kid nephew, Teddy Hart’s brother, died because of a weird virus. His siblings dragged his sick father to a wwe show just to beg Vince for jobs. His sister Diana wrote a book so filled with lies and bullshit that Owen’s widow sued her. Diana had to admit that she used a ghost writer. His best friend and confidant Jim Neidhart, developed Alzheimer at an early age and recently died. I’d be bitter too. Both his parents died, his best friends in wrestling like Rude, Bulldog and Hennig all died young in a relatively short space of time as his personal life and health were collapsing. He went through a decade of hell where anyone would come out the other side with a chip on their shoulder, but it's somehow all Bret's fault he's carmudgeonly at times, and not the actual brain damage, grief, betrayal and misery he went through. Also people keep on asking him the same questions in interviews about the same guys or events, so get similar answers... Which people who dislike Bret point at and say, 'oh he never has anything nice to say' except all the times he praises modern wrestlers, guys from back in the day or even guys like Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels. You know what? I like that Bret is honest about wrestling, that his opinions don't change because the WWE are giving him money. He doesn't attack people or defend them based on who us currently in the WWE's good graces, he's not a weathervane like Flair or Hogan, or a guy who claims Vince can do no wrong like Bruce Prichard. He doesn't hate everything like Corny, his attacks are usually accompanied by praise for active guys he has no relationship with. Bret is true to himself and it's wonderful. Mentioned this in another thread a moment ago, but strokes often severely impact a person's emotional response to things too, so his responses might be more emotional and intense than they would otherwise be too, as would his feelings about things he recollects.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Sept 5, 2018 9:45:10 GMT -5
I generally like ZSJ. His style of technical wrestling is unique and he can create some good drama with the leg clutch pinfalls and his submissions. But he could stand to add more offensive moves- the Michinoku Driver is a good start- and yes, he could afford to put on some weight to make his attacks more convincing. Technical stars like Malenko and Benoit had an array of moves outside of their mat skill.
I don’t feel Finn Balor is being buried. He is spinning his wheels during this Braun and friends vs. Shield war, but he hasn’t become Barry Horowitz booking wise.
Randy Orton is a great wrestler who’s consistently entertained me for years.
Fans vocally supporting heels isn’t a new phenomenon. You can find old NWA episodes on the Network where Flair fans in the crowd are heckling Dusty Rhodes.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Sept 5, 2018 12:29:56 GMT -5
Count me among those who like ZSJ as a personality but not as a wrestler. Rolling around on the mat and putting on overly elaborate holds might be entertaining if you “know how to exchange holds”. I don’t, and I don’t care to learn.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 5, 2018 13:48:51 GMT -5
I generally like ZSJ. His style of technical wrestling is unique and he can create some good drama with the leg clutch pinfalls and his submissions. But he could stand to add more offensive moves- the Michinoku Driver is a good start- and yes, he could afford to put on some weight to make his attacks more convincing. Technical stars like Malenko and Benoit had an array of moves outside of their mat skill. I don’t feel Finn Balor is being buried. He is spinning his wheels during this Braun and friends vs. Shield war, but he hasn’t become Barry Horowitz booking wise. Randy Orton is a great wrestler who’s consistently entertained me for years. Fans vocally supporting heels isn’t a new phenomenon. You can find old NWA episodes on the Network where Flair fans in the crowd are heckling Dusty Rhodes. I haven't been bored with a ZSJ match in NJPW in a long time
Dude makes everything look like it hurt and adding the Michinoku Driver (Zack Driver) is a nice step in the right direction
Randy Orton will not be appreciated until after he retires
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Sept 5, 2018 14:04:56 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels is maybe a top-50 worker all-time. Maybe. Which is no small praise at all. But the idea of him being the undisputed GOAT is laughable. His comeback produced more bad than good. Bret isn't the undisputed GOAT either, but he comes closer than Shawn--other than take bumps, he did literally everything better than Shawn. Psychology, selling, offense, pacing, carrying, working with Kevin Nash, drawing money, and interviews. I’ve never put Shawn as the best worker ever because he never drew money. I couldn't care less about who draws money when evaluating workers in-ring, other than noting that Bret was better at it. No one cuts us a check for that, so why should we care? We can take it into account when acknowledging why promotions do what they do, but we're not obliged to care about it further. And Shawn did draw money when he came back from his collapse in early '96, both for the Rumble PPV and subsequent house shows.
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