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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Sept 5, 2018 14:05:33 GMT -5
Scott Hall was never a great worker. He became an okay big man after being in wrestling a decade but needed a better talent to carry him to anything interesting in the ring. Take Bret, Shawn and Waltman out of the equation and there are no Scott Hall matches that are particularly memorable, nevermind great.
Randy Orton is boring. The guy has been given a large chunk of two decades now to really let loose and show what he can do in the ring abd on the mic but he has failed to do so time and time again and it's always the other guy's fault. I'm sure he's capable of more, but he comes back hot from injury or suspension then within a month or two he's back to cruise control. After all the chances he's had, all the talent he's fought, he should be someone's biggest rival or the talent who put a rising star on the map, but he just isn't, he's just someone they wrestled between feuding with others who can do a better job because he's a main event placeholder and that's all he'll be remembered as. He's main evented the best part of a hundred PPVs, there should be a long string of great Randy Orton moments but there just aren't, he's been injured for months during his tenure and has seldom been missed.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 5, 2018 15:22:02 GMT -5
I’ve never put Shawn as the best worker ever because he never drew money. I couldn't care less about who draws money when evaluating workers in-ring, other than noting that Bret was better at it. No one cuts us a check for that, so why should we care? We can take it into account when acknowledging why promotions do what they do, but we're not obliged to care about it further. And Shawn did draw money when he came back from his collapse in early '96, both for the Rumble PPV and subsequent house shows. If I’m not mistaken, the royal rumble wasn’t that big money drawing event, they had to drastically lower the prizes just to fill it. It was basically more of a presentation than anything.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Sept 5, 2018 15:40:25 GMT -5
The WWF's decline was going to happen in the early to mid 90s no matter who was on top, overreliance on, then scandals involving Hogan started the problem, Warrior failed to stem the bleeding, Flair underperformed, Savage did little better, Bret, Shawn, Diesel... There were factors at play that nobody could have overcome at that point in time. Fans were burned out on wrestling, the steroid and sex scandals scared off the casuals, and the booking was burning through the die hards fans, top talents leaving and were replaced with people not on their level, we went from having the cream of the territories to Memphis and Smokey Mountain guys, and booking to match.
With that said, I don't think not being a draw should be held over Shawn's head, but his behaviour at that time should be. The WWF fed virtually everyone to him to make him a star, he went nearly unbeaten for two years, and he tried to get himself fired when they needed him most to go make money elsewhere and drink himself to death with Scott Hall in WCW.
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Post by grungesmurf on Sept 5, 2018 16:29:10 GMT -5
Mortis should have been a upper midcard talent with a couple US title runs.
Juventud and Phychosis > Rey Mysterio Jr
The kliq severely damaged the WWF/WWE for years.
Dean Malenko and Chris Benoit didn’t belong in The Four Horsemen.
Chris Jericho’s best work was in WCW.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Sept 5, 2018 18:58:33 GMT -5
2006 DX was still funny.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 19:04:45 GMT -5
Aside from the dreadful, vulgar bbq segment, I think they were funnier and far more self aware than they were in the 90s.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 5, 2018 19:29:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure Brother Love was really ordained.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Sept 5, 2018 22:37:43 GMT -5
Steamboat vs Savage may not even be a top 5 match on the WrestleMania 3 card, let alone of all time.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Sept 6, 2018 3:11:11 GMT -5
Cena was never depushed, he got a major push off the bat then cooled off a few months, wrestling with and against midcarders like Kidman and Rikishi because he was a midcarder at that point in time and they were over. Within months he turned heel with the rapper act, he didn't claw his way from the scrapheap, he went through the same routine the WWE goes through with everyone they had plans for. Hunter went through the same thing, winning streak then loss, then s short while trading wins with other midcarders before getting a push higher up the card.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Sept 6, 2018 3:17:21 GMT -5
Aside from the dreadful, vulgar bbq segment, I think they were funnier and far more self aware than they were in the 90s. 2006 DX wasn't all that bad, but 2009 DX is where they started really getting try hard, especially since WWE going hard on the content of the show (I won't use the PG buzzword, because they could have been much edgier even in PG guidelines) meant they had to lean heavily on stupid shit like Hornswoggle, and they often got tied to the guest hosts as well which usually made things worse.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 6:11:32 GMT -5
Aside from the dreadful, vulgar bbq segment, I think they were funnier and far more self aware than they were in the 90s. 2006 DX wasn't all that bad, but 2009 DX is where they started really getting try hard, especially since WWE going hard on the content of the show (I won't use the PG buzzword, because they could have been much edgier even in PG guidelines) meant they had to lean heavily on stupid shit like Hornswoggle, and they often got tied to the guest hosts as well which usually made things worse. 2009 gave us DX and Dusty though which was amazing
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 6:59:05 GMT -5
With one exception (the stupid finish where they KOed each other with dick punches) the AJ/Nakamura feud was perfectly fine. It gave the latter a fresh new character, the right guy went over (would have liked Nakamura as champ but Joe or Miz to dethrone AJ makes more sense) and the matches were entertaining. If people were let down by it then it's their own unrealistic expectations that were to blame. Two guys pushing 40 are not going to give you a 40 minute non stop mat classic with a few risky high spots, if put in the spotlight and made to do a long match both men are going to need a lot of selling and rest holds to catch a breather. I'm actually impressed that they both managed to hide their stamina weaknesses so well during the series of matches.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Sept 6, 2018 9:34:07 GMT -5
I'm with Cornette on guys like Kenny Omega and Joey Ryan. We all know wrestling is fake, we don't need to be beaten around the head by that fact then suplexed by it's dick. Pro wrestling requires suspension of disbelief to work as a spectacle and it's really hard to feel that when you have spots like that. I'm not with Cornette when he says funny doesn't equal money. Disco Inferno was a comedy wrestler, but he could get serious when needed and he added colour to the WCW undercard, The Rock, a lot of what he did was intended as comedy and he had the charisma to make any gibberish work, Al Snow, again, solid midcard comedy act who was silly and enjoyable. There's a place for all styles of wrestling in moderation. When Cornette says "funny don't make money," he means that you have to be serious in the end and guys like babyface Doink or the Bushwhackers would be death in the main event spot. The Rock is not the type of guy Cornette means when he derides comedy wrestlers because Rock's matches and angles are presented in a serious way. Exactly.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 6, 2018 9:40:29 GMT -5
When Cornette says "funny don't make money," he means that you have to be serious in the end and guys like babyface Doink or the Bushwhackers would be death in the main event spot. The Rock is not the type of guy Cornette means when he derides comedy wrestlers because Rock's matches and angles are presented in a serious way. Exactly. I was going to say "If the Bushwhackers were 30 years younger..." But good lord, they're Vince's age.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 6, 2018 11:23:38 GMT -5
Cena was never depushed, he got a major push off the bat then cooled off a few months, wrestling with and against midcarders like Kidman and Rikishi because he was a midcarder at that point in time and they were over. Within months he turned heel with the rapper act, he didn't claw his way from the scrapheap, he went through the same routine the WWE goes through with everyone they had plans for. Hunter went through the same thing, winning streak then loss, then s short while trading wins with other midcarders before getting a push higher up the card. He was on the chopping block if you believe that story
Also Hunter got his de-push thanks to the Curtain Call so not really one to one comparison
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Post by thecrusherwi on Sept 6, 2018 11:40:16 GMT -5
Steamboat vs Savage may not even be a top 5 match on the WrestleMania 3 card, let alone of all time. Alright this needs a follow up. Name 5 matches on the Wrestlemania III card that you think are better. I’m genuinely curious.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Sept 6, 2018 11:55:21 GMT -5
Cena was never depushed, he got a major push off the bat then cooled off a few months, wrestling with and against midcarders like Kidman and Rikishi because he was a midcarder at that point in time and they were over. Within months he turned heel with the rapper act, he didn't claw his way from the scrapheap, he went through the same routine the WWE goes through with everyone they had plans for. Hunter went through the same thing, winning streak then loss, then s short while trading wins with other midcarders before getting a push higher up the card. He was on the chopping block if you believe that story Also Hunter got his de-push thanks to the Curtain Call so not really one to one comparison
Both are fun fairytles, but I don't believe either. If Cena was anywhere near the chopping blook he would have been jobbing clean to guys at the start of shows, if not flat out sent to HWA or whatever dead end indy they sent the WCW undercard to while their contracts expired in that time period, not working competative TV matches in the midcard. People mix up the timeline when he comes to Triple H and think that his jobbing to Henry Godwin was a reaction to the Curtain call, when that happened way before and in reality, his depush, not active burial, was nothing more than a month or so, then he got Mr. Perfect as a manager and within 6 months went on to win the WWF IC belt when it actually mattere, not exactly what you would consider a burial by any stretch of the imagination.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 6, 2018 12:04:38 GMT -5
Andre vs Hogan only worked once in wm 3.
The other times they faced each other sucked.
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Post by cjh on Sept 6, 2018 12:31:56 GMT -5
He was on the chopping block if you believe that story Also Hunter got his de-push thanks to the Curtain Call so not really one to one comparison
Both are fun fairytles, but I don't believe either. If Cena was anywhere near the chopping blook he would have been jobbing clean to guys at the start of shows, if not flat out sent to HWA or whatever dead end indy they sent the WCW undercard to while their contracts expired in that time period, not working competative TV matches in the midcard. People mix up the timeline when he comes to Triple H and think that his jobbing to Henry Godwin was a reaction to the Curtain call, when that happened way before and in reality, his depush, not active burial, was nothing more than a month or so, then he got Mr. Perfect as a manager and within 6 months went on to win the WWF IC belt when it actually mattere, not exactly what you would consider a burial by any stretch of the imagination.They definitely did punish him, though. He was supposed to win King of the Ring (which Steve Austin has confirmed) but instead lost clean to Jake Roberts in the first round. He also didn't wrestle on any PPVs from June-September when he had been regularly getting matches on them for months.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Sept 6, 2018 13:08:38 GMT -5
For all its many, many flaws, one thing the Inokiism Era of NJPW did have, that wrestling since then in general has lacked and could learn from, was unpredictable finishes. You'd get some matches end in 5-10 minutes, guys would win by just kicking the other dude in the head until he was out of it or slapping on a flash armbar, not knowing how or when a match would finish was one genuinely positive aspect of an otherwise dark era and something that wrestling would benefit from re-incorporating, as currently you pretty much always know that some moves will only ever get a 2 count, and in big matches there's probably going to be a finisher kick out or 3 and 20-30 minutes before the finish.
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