schma
El Dandy
Who are you to doubt me?
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Post by schma on Jun 18, 2023 16:19:18 GMT -5
I think it also came from execs at WB just not having faith in their properties. For years they insisted that only Superman and Batman were draws at the box office and pointed to Green Lantern as proof. Marvel's success forced their hand but, they still had no faith and chased after that success in the most cynical way. I wouldn't be surprised if they started with Flashpoint because they genuinely thought that was the only Flash story that could give them a successful movie (despite a pretty damn successful tv series). It was the same thing though with Batman vs Superman. The whole reason them fighting in the Dark Knight Returns was such a big deal was because of the decades of friendship and respect we had seen in the comics. Before that, the idea of them going at each other that hard was almost unthinkable. And then WB said, let's start with that as they clearly missed the point and just knew that it sold a lot of comics.
WB signed off on it but Batman fighting Superman right away was Snyder's dumb idea. Also Snyder is likely the reason they did Flashpoint so early too. Since the Snyderverse was pretty blatantly DOA. But DC has been writing and going for the big moment without warning it since at least the green lantern, and Snyder sure as hell isn't the person you tap to set things up for the future as he can't even keep a theme or character motivation straight through an entire movie. That's fair, I wasn't exactly sure whose idea it was. Though WB hiring people to make movies of characters they didn't really know anything about seemed a bad idea as well. That may not have been the case for all of DCEU but at least some of them had major influences from people who knew sweet f all about the characters and had no interest in learning.
Part of why Marvel was so successful in the beginning (in my opinion) is that they were run by people who had been invested in the comic side of things for years. They cared about these properties and believed in them an also understood the characters for the most part. Meanwhile DC was a small subsidiary of a big movie making company that didn't see much value in the property and treated it as such.
I find it telling that the DC animated and DC television stuff is so often fantastic. It tends to have less attention from the top and I think that's part of it.
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schma
El Dandy
Who are you to doubt me?
Posts: 7,718
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Post by schma on Jun 18, 2023 16:21:32 GMT -5
This wouldn't surprise me at all. For the longest damn time DC/WBD seemed to think the only Batman stories worth telling were "The Dark Knight Returns" and, on a good day, "Hush", and the only Superman story worth telling was "The Death of Superman". They probably have a whole list of stories that they consider the most iconic, most legendary story for each character that they should make a movie out of and that list is like fifty percent Geoff Johns stuff. Which is weird because they could just hire a writer to write them a story instead of relying on a comic story Yeah, really they have the animated films if they want to rehash a comic story. With the movies they should be aiming to give us something fresh. |
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Post by The Captain on Jun 18, 2023 16:34:32 GMT -5
The animated films based on Flashpoint were pretty good, yeah.
I think that's another thing with Flashpoint in the big screen movie: it felt like cynical cash grab for nostalgia. Like imagine if instead of playing Batman '89 for the cheap pop, Michael Keaton instead played the actual Flashpoint Batman: Thomas Wayne and you had, say, Michelle Pfeiffer play the Flashpoint Joker: Martha Wayne. Not only do you get the nostalgia pop from Keaton and Pfeiffer returning to the DC movies, but they're playing new characters that add to the story of how messed up the Flashpoint timeline is.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jun 18, 2023 16:39:42 GMT -5
Bares noting the $55 million number might actually end up adjusting lower since it's being elevated by expectations that Father's Day will boost it but Saturday saw a steep drop from Friday. That's the thing. Flashpoint wasn't even a good story to begin with. It was a cynical cash grab to reboot a universe that nobody wanted, and DC spent the last few years hitting the reset button on it so often that it's now full of cracks. There are several stories about Wally DC could have looted that would have made a better movie. Honestly I think that's part of the problem. They insist on keeping Barry as The Flash but dude flat out doesn't have an iconic story you can point to outside of Flashpoint which, again, was BAD. you could alter a Wally story to work, but even those stories typically involve Barry being dead and gone. |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 18, 2023 16:46:05 GMT -5
The animated films based on Flashpoint were pretty good, yeah. I think that's another thing with Flashpoint in the big screen movie: it felt like cynical cash grab for nostalgia. Like imagine if instead of playing Batman '89 for the cheap pop, Michael Keaton instead played the actual Flashpoint Batman: Thomas Wayne and you had, say, Michelle Pfeiffer play the Flashpoint Joker: Martha Wayne. Not only do you get the nostalgia pop from Keaton and Pfeiffer returning to the DC movies, but they're playing new characters that add to the story of how messed up the Flashpoint timeline is. I kept having to remind myself watching Flash that it isn't Thomas Wayne. I get the cheap pop but you def could cast themselves in those roles and it would served the same purpose but this was as barebones as you can get with none of it mattering Flashpoint in first place shouldn't have been used for years even when they were following a gameplan and this movie was supposed to matter. If written right, this movie could broken up the universe to benefit them in a major way. Don't think it helps either that Flash TV series also just did it |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2023 16:58:32 GMT -5
Having Flashpoint be the starting off point was so bad but NOT USING THE GAWD DAMN MAIN VILLAN WHO IS REPONSIBLE FOR IT! is a whole other level of stupid asshatery.
People can criticize the show for many things but they did Flashpoint with far less resources including budget way better.
I love how while they could not do all the cameos etc but made it just as emotional by having RF explain that the more Barry used his speed in this reality the more memories he would lose and his powers and then having Flash ask him to kill his mother (AGAIN) to fix it was so f***ing emotionally brilliant because without throwing a single punch RF puts Barry through so much pain in such a short span of time.
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Post by The Captain on Jun 18, 2023 17:02:40 GMT -5
Eobard Thawne, whether it's in the comics or the TV show, is the ultimate Player Hater.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jun 18, 2023 17:29:52 GMT -5
Eobard Thawne, whether it's in the comics or the TV show, is the ultimate Player Hater. *Some pollen blows by and Barry sneezes* RF: IT WAS ME, BARRY!!! |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 18, 2023 17:35:45 GMT -5
Eobard Thawne, whether it's in the comics or the TV show, is the ultimate Player Hater. Reverse Flash:  |
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schma
El Dandy
Who are you to doubt me?
Posts: 7,718
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Post by schma on Jun 18, 2023 17:48:51 GMT -5
It's scary how petty supervillains are sometimes. You stopped me from robbing a bank so I am dedicating myself to killing you and everyone you love!
Then there's Reverse Flash. You ruined my coming out party, you got the credit when I did something good. Yeah if I wait a week or so I'll have another chance to be the hero, but instead I'll devote my life to becoming the antithesis of you. Oh and I'll kill your mom. That will teach you to get in the way of someone you didn't know existed!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2023 17:52:27 GMT -5
The show was so great at displaying how petty Thawne is.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Jun 18, 2023 17:52:46 GMT -5
I have my doubts this is going to change because of how fundamentally broken WBD's whole outlook on pretty much everything is but it really does seem like there's just a consistent refusal to learn that, "Just copy what this popular movie did!" is not a recipe for success. While some of the ideas obviously already existed before it I guarantee a lot of the edited in callbacks and tie-ins to other movies that happened while this movie was being endlessly screentested were done because, "Hey, it worked for No Way Home!"
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jun 18, 2023 17:58:54 GMT -5
Eobard Thawne, whether it's in the comics or the TV show, is the ultimate Player Hater. Black Manta does give him a pretty good run for his money, though. When they killed off Aquaman in the comics, Manta settled down to live a peaceful life in a New England fishing village. Once Brightest Day happened and Aquaman came back, Manta literally torched that life, brutally killing the customers in his shop, as well as his coworker, the exact moment he heard Aquaman was back, so he could immediately go back to hating. I feel the only thing stopping Black Manta from being a bigger hater than Thawne is his lack of time travel powers. |
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Post by zero744 on Jun 18, 2023 18:04:11 GMT -5
I saw it today, thought it was really good.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 18, 2023 18:18:22 GMT -5
Realized I never gave my thoughts on the movie {Spoiler}{SPOILER: CLICK TO SHOW}
That CGI was asscheeks
Yeah, as expected if you saw the trailer then you saw the 2 hour movie in 10 seconds
Everything else felt like filler. "Main Barry" did not have his powers for half the movie. Zod, Bruce (Ben Affleck) felt like they shot their scenes on green screen by themselves months ago and they spliced it in
The cameos were big filler
The story of a boy just wanting his mom back should had a lot more emotional baggage then it did |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 18, 2023 18:21:46 GMT -5
I have my doubts this is going to change because of how fundamentally broken WBD's whole outlook on pretty much everything is but it really does seem like there's just a consistent refusal to learn that, "Just copy what this popular movie did!" is not a recipe for success. While some of the ideas obviously already existed before it I guarantee a lot of the edited in callbacks and tie-ins to other movies that happened while this movie was being endlessly screentested were done because, "Hey, it worked for No Way Home!" I feel like in watching the movie you can tell a lot of reshoots were done and shit was just thrown in |
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Post by Art Thoubored?!? on Jun 18, 2023 18:29:21 GMT -5
I have my doubts this is going to change because of how fundamentally broken WBD's whole outlook on pretty much everything is but it really does seem like there's just a consistent refusal to learn that, "Just copy what this popular movie did!" is not a recipe for success. While some of the ideas obviously already existed before it I guarantee a lot of the edited in callbacks and tie-ins to other movies that happened while this movie was being endlessly screentested were done because, "Hey, it worked for No Way Home!" It does seem like DC can't win for losing. Don't copy what Marvel does? People complain, and the movies don't make as much money as DC had hoped. Copy what Marvel does? People complain, and the movies don't make as much money as DC had hoped. |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 18, 2023 18:32:30 GMT -5
I have my doubts this is going to change because of how fundamentally broken WBD's whole outlook on pretty much everything is but it really does seem like there's just a consistent refusal to learn that, "Just copy what this popular movie did!" is not a recipe for success. While some of the ideas obviously already existed before it I guarantee a lot of the edited in callbacks and tie-ins to other movies that happened while this movie was being endlessly screentested were done because, "Hey, it worked for No Way Home!" It does seem like DC can't win for losing. Don't copy what Marvel does? People complain, and the movies don't make as much money as DC had hoped. Copy what Marvel does? People complain, and the movies don't make as much money as DC had hoped. I mean, just come up with a concrete 5-10 year plan and stop trying to expedite the process is really what people have asked for and what everyone has agreed on Copy Marvels patience, not their ideas |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2023 18:41:45 GMT -5
I know they are their big bankable heroes.
But IMO DC needs to get away from Bats , Supes etc being the stop and start of every movie they do....do more siginificantly lower budgeted movies because they keep going back to the same f***ing well and it is just diminishing return after diminishing return.
Do a green arrow movie etc.
Yea the movies may not make as much money but they should have a significantly less bloated budget (one would hope atleast) so the risk isn't as insane as developing a near 200 mil budget movie and it only grossing 55mil or so opening.
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Kalmia
King Koopa
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Post by Kalmia on Jun 18, 2023 18:45:45 GMT -5
The plan Snyder had for JL2 and JL3 was awful but throwing away a plan without having another plan to replace it wasn't the best idea either. WBD/DC just seemed to enter panic mode several times throughout the making of every movie and it results in movies that don't satisfy anyone. The Flash having three different endings because of all the studio upheaval is a joke.
I agree that WBD/DC needs to take a long pause and think about where they're going. I don't think that launching straight into casting and filming Superman Legacy as they're planning to is a good idea. The brand is very damaged right now and I think a pause on everything (other than the separate stuff such as Batman 2 and Joker 2) is probably their best course of action.
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