Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2018 16:04:13 GMT -5
Sting pulled a Braden Walker? Who could ever forget the night that Sting stood in the rafters, with his hands on his hips. |
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,712 
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 27, 2018 16:04:18 GMT -5
 He looked...fine to me? Like if I was forced to pick a fight with one of them I'd go for the guy with the skullet. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2018 17:34:24 GMT -5
He looked...fine to me? Like if I was forced to pick a fight with one of them I'd go for the guy with the skullet. Skullet and moobs. |
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efarns
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,273
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Post by efarns on Dec 27, 2018 17:48:26 GMT -5
Sting should have gone over clean. I get that Bischoff was upset that Sting was out of shape. It’s part of Sting’s job to be prepared for the match. He had all year to do so and he shows up looking terrible. It is lazy when all that time and money has been invested in him. Then you have the rumors of substance abuse out there too. That may have played a part in Bischoff’s feelings about the situation too. Add in that this is WCW’s biggest event in history. I don’t blame Bischoff for being upset. I guess the finish was Bischoff’s way of punishing Sting as much as he could at the time for showing up like that. Sting still had to win. I think a better punishment would have been to have him drop the title back to Hogan the next night on Nitro. Sting gets his clean win and the crowd / viewers get the payoff. Hogan regains the title the next night and they can pop a rating on Nitro. The belt was changing hands enough back then so it would’ve been acceptable. That would’ve been a better way to handle it since Sting wasn’t in the proper condition. Give Sting time to clean up his act and get himself together to set up a third match between them that they can sell down the line. Now that Sting would be wrestling again they could’ve given it a completely different build and kept a better eye on his in ring performances to make sure he was ready for the third match. Bischoff was heel and leader of the nWo at that point right? So Sting wins clean. Next night Bischoff strips him of the title and fires him kayfabe. Sends Sting home in real life until he shapes up, gets help with the drugs, whatever. Tries to award Hogan the title back but you have Nash and Hall who want their shot. Leads into the breakup and Black and White vs. Wolfpac feud. If Sting cleans up he comes back in as a wild card. If not you wait until Goldberg is ready. Of course this is all with hindsight. I think you're on the right track. WCW absolutely needed to satisfy the end of that storyline with Sting going over strong. They could have booked their way out of Sting's poor conditioning without sacrificing the biggest storyline payoff in the company's existence. |
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Dec 27, 2018 18:01:04 GMT -5
Sting looked fine, I mean he wasn't fat and his arms looked huge. I still believe its Eric excuse to hide Hogan political BS. If Piper can win against Hogan clean more than once who was lets face it not in the best shape in 97. Yes he was great in 96 but Havoc that year he wasn't.
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Post by sfvega on Dec 28, 2018 1:08:25 GMT -5
Yeah, sometimes something is fun in the moment and later you realize you shouldn’t have done that. If you do the right thing in the first place that problem magically goes away. Except Bish is trying to justify arguably the biggest mistake in WCW history wasn’t that bad. Well, yeah, because that match was immediately followed by WCW's most financially successful year ever. The Hogan/Flair double turn in March 1999 would be a much better example of a terrible booking decision Bischoff approved because ratings and attendance started to drop almost overnight. So by that logic, the Havoc cut-off wasn't a mistake because business didn't drop-off for 6 months. Foley has said that Raw was a better show for a while before the ratings, which have always been a somewhat flawed system, caught up to WWF being the hotter product. Wrestling fans in general have a tendency to stick through a LOT of stupid stuff until one day they just tune out, and it isn't because of one major thing. Just like TNA. I watched TNA and WCW both for years and years, and then one day just stopped. And I doubt the last shows I saw for either of those products were the particular reason I tuned out, it was a cumulative thing. Not to mention that 1998 roster was probably the most stacked and most expensive roster ever (?), and it's hard for one match to sour an entire fed's fanbase on all that talent. Doesn't mean people were happy with the booking though. If Nick Patrick does an actual fast count, is this even a discussion? That’s something I’ve always wondered. If Patrick counts fast, and then Bret plays the hero by refusing to let another star get screwed by a ref, then it actually makes perfect sense and is actually a decent way to mixing Survivor Series 1997 into WCW’s storylines. But the count was normal so Sting looked like a damn goober. Hogan jobbed clean to Luger a few months earlier. Like, really clean. Luger practically fought off everyone in the NWO in that match and made Hogan submit. I don’t know why Hulk would have an issue losing like that to Sting. Not to mention the Piper jobs like others here brought up. Then there was Goldberg a few months later. Just seems weird if Hulk had an issue specifically with Sting. Losing Luger was almost a must and Hogan being the shrewd politician knew that. He was getting the win back anyway. I also wouldn't put it past him to have given up that Luger win as well because his win does cut into the Sting angle Losing to Sting wasn't just a random L, it was a payoff to a year long angle that could effect him and his group. Piper only came back to cash in on the fact Hogan never got his W's back against him and in the end Hogan was never going to lose the title and can move right passed his program with Roddy with no problem
Yeah, I really wonder what the difference was between old, tired Roddy Piper who wasn't a full-time wrestler and Sting who was blowing the roof off of every arena..... Speaking of roofs, why didn't Sting come down from the ceiling at the MCI Center? Were they not rigged for that? His entrance was very lackluster. |
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
It's Just a Ride
Posts: 42,477
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Dec 28, 2018 2:09:53 GMT -5
Well, yeah, because that match was immediately followed by WCW's most financially successful year ever. The Hogan/Flair double turn in March 1999 would be a much better example of a terrible booking decision Bischoff approved because ratings and attendance started to drop almost overnight. So by that logic, the Havoc cut-off wasn't a mistake because business didn't drop-off for 6 months. Foley has said that Raw was a better show for a while before the ratings, which have always been a somewhat flawed system, caught up to WWF being the hotter product. Wrestling fans in general have a tendency to stick through a LOT of stupid stuff until one day they just tune out, and it isn't because of one major thing. Just like TNA. I watched TNA and WCW both for years and years, and then one day just stopped. And I doubt the last shows I saw for either of those products were the particular reason I tuned out, it was a cumulative thing. Not to mention that 1998 roster was probably the most stacked and most expensive roster ever (?), and it's hard for one match to sour an entire fed's fanbase on all that talent. Doesn't mean people were happy with the booking though. Losing Luger was almost a must and Hogan being the shrewd politician knew that. He was getting the win back anyway. I also wouldn't put it past him to have given up that Luger win as well because his win does cut into the Sting angle Losing to Sting wasn't just a random L, it was a payoff to a year long angle that could effect him and his group. Piper only came back to cash in on the fact Hogan never got his W's back against him and in the end Hogan was never going to lose the title and can move right passed his program with Roddy with no problem
Yeah, I really wonder what the difference was between old, tired Roddy Piper who wasn't a full-time wrestler and Sting who was blowing the roof off of every arena..... Speaking of roofs, why didn't Sting come down from the ceiling at the MCI Center? Were they not rigged for that? His entrance was very lackluster. I forget what line of bullshit Bischoff said for that, but it's Bischoff so he had one. |
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,903
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Post by cjh on Dec 28, 2018 7:29:19 GMT -5
Well, yeah, because that match was immediately followed by WCW's most financially successful year ever. The Hogan/Flair double turn in March 1999 would be a much better example of a terrible booking decision Bischoff approved because ratings and attendance started to drop almost overnight. So by that logic, the Havoc cut-off wasn't a mistake because business didn't drop-off for 6 months. Foley has said that Raw was a better show for a while before the ratings, which have always been a somewhat flawed system, caught up to WWF being the hotter product. Wrestling fans in general have a tendency to stick through a LOT of stupid stuff until one day they just tune out, and it isn't because of one major thing. Just like TNA. I watched TNA and WCW both for years and years, and then one day just stopped. And I doubt the last shows I saw for either of those products were the particular reason I tuned out, it was a cumulative thing. Not to mention that 1998 roster was probably the most stacked and most expensive roster ever (?), and it's hard for one match to sour an entire fed's fanbase on all that talent. Doesn't mean people were happy with the booking though. Losing Luger was almost a must and Hogan being the shrewd politician knew that. He was getting the win back anyway. I also wouldn't put it past him to have given up that Luger win as well because his win does cut into the Sting angle Losing to Sting wasn't just a random L, it was a payoff to a year long angle that could effect him and his group. Piper only came back to cash in on the fact Hogan never got his W's back against him and in the end Hogan was never going to lose the title and can move right passed his program with Roddy with no problem
Yeah, I really wonder what the difference was between old, tired Roddy Piper who wasn't a full-time wrestler and Sting who was blowing the roof off of every arena..... Speaking of roofs, why didn't Sting come down from the ceiling at the MCI Center? Were they not rigged for that? His entrance was very lackluster. WCW had to refund millions of dollars to angry fans due to the screw up at Halloween Havoc 1998. After Starrcade 1997, fans just kept giving WCW more and more money. It's not even close to the same thing. Again, the Hogan/Flair double turn in 1999 was way more damaging. Fans basically began turning on WCW almost immediately. Regarding Sting's entrance, he apparently didn't come down from the rafters because WCW, at least in December 1997, wanted that done only when he was surprising the NWO with a run-in, not when he was in a scheduled match. |
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Post by celtics543 on Dec 28, 2018 7:41:38 GMT -5
Just have Sting win clean at Starrcade and then forfeit the title the next night on Nitro. Have the lights go out, the belt appear in the ring with his trench coat, boots, and ball bat next to it. It would be a very Undertaker thing to do but play it off as he got revenge for WCW but he's still that loner character and he just wanted to make the nWo pay but didn't really want the belt. Bischoff is always talking about what works for a character but everything here was completely out of character for the Sting that had been portrayed for the entire year.
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Post by sfvega on Dec 28, 2018 8:16:28 GMT -5
So by that logic, the Havoc cut-off wasn't a mistake because business didn't drop-off for 6 months. Foley has said that Raw was a better show for a while before the ratings, which have always been a somewhat flawed system, caught up to WWF being the hotter product. Wrestling fans in general have a tendency to stick through a LOT of stupid stuff until one day they just tune out, and it isn't because of one major thing. Just like TNA. I watched TNA and WCW both for years and years, and then one day just stopped. And I doubt the last shows I saw for either of those products were the particular reason I tuned out, it was a cumulative thing. Not to mention that 1998 roster was probably the most stacked and most expensive roster ever (?), and it's hard for one match to sour an entire fed's fanbase on all that talent. Doesn't mean people were happy with the booking though. Yeah, I really wonder what the difference was between old, tired Roddy Piper who wasn't a full-time wrestler and Sting who was blowing the roof off of every arena..... Speaking of roofs, why didn't Sting come down from the ceiling at the MCI Center? Were they not rigged for that? His entrance was very lackluster. WCW had to refund millions of dollars to angry fans due to the screw up at Halloween Havoc 1998. After Starrcade 1997, fans just kept giving WCW more and more money. It's not even close to the same thing. Again, the Hogan/Flair double turn in 1999 was way more damaging. Fans basically began turning on WCW almost immediately. Regarding Sting's entrance, he apparently didn't come down from the rafters because WCW, at least in December 1997, wanted that done only when he was surprising the NWO with a run-in, not when he was in a scheduled match. It's the same thing in that if your line of thinking is "business was still good after this, so it MUST have not been that bad of a decision." 1998 making boatloads of money doesn't make Starrcade 97 not a giant disaster, that it is still known as to this day. I don't even remember the Flair/Hogan double-turn, so it's legacy hardly precedes it. It is merely a tire fire amongst dumpster fires. |
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
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Post by cjh on Dec 28, 2018 9:52:09 GMT -5
WCW had to refund millions of dollars to angry fans due to the screw up at Halloween Havoc 1998. After Starrcade 1997, fans just kept giving WCW more and more money. It's not even close to the same thing. Again, the Hogan/Flair double turn in 1999 was way more damaging. Fans basically began turning on WCW almost immediately. Regarding Sting's entrance, he apparently didn't come down from the rafters because WCW, at least in December 1997, wanted that done only when he was surprising the NWO with a run-in, not when he was in a scheduled match. It's the same thing in that if your line of thinking is "business was still good after this, so it MUST have not been that bad of a decision." 1998 making boatloads of money doesn't make Starrcade 97 not a giant disaster, that it is still known as to this day. I don't even remember the Flair/Hogan double-turn, so it's legacy hardly precedes it. It is merely a tire fire amongst dumpster fires. That's my reason for bringing it up. The Hogan/Flair double turn was absolutely a bigger disaster and deserves way more blame for what happened to WCW in the end than Starrcade 1997 or the Fingerpoke of Doom. It was a bad decision that damaged business right away. Sting/Hogan and the Fingerpoke of Doom didn't piss off the fans so much that ticket sales and ratings decreased dramatically within weeks. The Hogan/Flair turn did. |
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Post by sfvega on Dec 28, 2018 10:06:24 GMT -5
It's the same thing in that if your line of thinking is "business was still good after this, so it MUST have not been that bad of a decision." 1998 making boatloads of money doesn't make Starrcade 97 not a giant disaster, that it is still known as to this day. I don't even remember the Flair/Hogan double-turn, so it's legacy hardly precedes it. It is merely a tire fire amongst dumpster fires. That's my reason for bringing it up. The Hogan/Flair double turn was absolutely a bigger disaster and deserves way more blame for what happened to WCW in the end than Starrcade 1997 or the Fingerpoke of Doom. It was a bad decision that damaged business right away. Sting/Hogan and the Fingerpoke of Doom didn't piss off the fans so much that ticket sales and ratings decreased dramatically within weeks. The Hogan/Flair turn did. You realize that if wrestling fans tuned out at the first thing they didn't like, there would be none left. To act like WCW wasn't trending down at this point already and continued to after, but rather this was some seminal moment where there was this mass exodus is just inaccurate. The next PPV did a great gate, not incomparable buys, the house show numbers were similar. The bottom just did not fall out of the business at WCW over Flair/Hogan. |
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,903
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Post by cjh on Dec 28, 2018 10:13:51 GMT -5
That's my reason for bringing it up. The Hogan/Flair double turn was absolutely a bigger disaster and deserves way more blame for what happened to WCW in the end than Starrcade 1997 or the Fingerpoke of Doom. It was a bad decision that damaged business right away. Sting/Hogan and the Fingerpoke of Doom didn't piss off the fans so much that ticket sales and ratings decreased dramatically within weeks. The Hogan/Flair turn did. You realize that if wrestling fans tuned out at the first thing they didn't like, there would be none left. To act like WCW wasn't trending down at this point already and continued to after, but rather this was some seminal moment where there was this mass exodus is just inaccurate. The next PPV did a great gate, not incomparable buys, the house show numbers were similar. The bottom just did not fall out of the business at WCW over Flair/Hogan. No, it's not inaccurate. Business didn't just not go down after Sting/Hogan, it got even better. |
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Post by sfvega on Dec 28, 2018 10:21:09 GMT -5
You realize that if wrestling fans tuned out at the first thing they didn't like, there would be none left. To act like WCW wasn't trending down at this point already and continued to after, but rather this was some seminal moment where there was this mass exodus is just inaccurate. The next PPV did a great gate, not incomparable buys, the house show numbers were similar. The bottom just did not fall out of the business at WCW over Flair/Hogan. No, it's not inaccurate. Business didn't just not go down after Sting/Hogan, it got even better. I'm quite convinced through your replies here that you are in fact Eric Bischoff. |
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Dec 28, 2018 11:20:48 GMT -5
The part that still bothered me in all of this was when dark and brooding Sting was at his height of popularity for the character he was playing Bischoff went in the ring to advertise a direct to dvd chick flick that he was staring in as some guy named “Sparky” or something. It just totally seemed idiotic
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Gus Richlen: Ruffian
Patti Mayonnaise
Metal Maestro: Co-winner of the FAN Idol Throwdown!
BAU BAU
Posts: 39,291
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Post by Gus Richlen: Ruffian on Dec 28, 2018 11:47:30 GMT -5
Oh wow, one of Hogan's enablers is trying to cover for him again. Let me see where I left my shocked face.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Dec 28, 2018 11:55:18 GMT -5
No, it's not inaccurate. Business didn't just not go down after Sting/Hogan, it got even better. I'm quite convinced through your replies here that you are in fact Eric Bischoff. He is right. You cannot say "business doesn't change immediately" yet views changed immediately when Tony made his butts in seats comment. So clearly yes, yes it can. Despite this though, the actual payoff, the reformation of the NWO factions into one, so called fingerpoke of doom was what fans wanted. You severely underestimate the NWOs appeal if you think it should have just vanished like an ordinary stable after starrcade 97. Had WCW ran the hot angle of Goldberg, a betrayed Savage and Sting from the wolfpac against the NWO Elite attacked from the B team falling apart due to disgruntled Giant and Henning...... But no, WCW didn't do much. They started kinda, with fallouts between Steiner and Bagwell, and the LWO, and Giant being unhappy, but....they just allowed everything to fizzle down, before just abandoning the NWO Elite and having Hogan randomly turn face with no explanation, leading to the dumb double turn. Not much done with Goldberg, Luger or Hall, who had all been major plot points in the NWO Elite. No mention of Bret who was US Champ and Hogans friend. In short, they once again for the third year running had a super white hot angle possibility. It was just that fumbling that was really the last straw. |
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Dec 28, 2018 11:58:41 GMT -5
Oh wow, one of Hogan's enablers is trying to cover for him again. Let me see where I left my shocked face. Can we not have people like yourself getting bent up over the discussion of what was good or bad in WCW here? Otherwise I'll misquote you and say you think all discussion FOR Hogan means you agree with racism |
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Gus Richlen: Ruffian
Patti Mayonnaise
Metal Maestro: Co-winner of the FAN Idol Throwdown!
BAU BAU
Posts: 39,291
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Post by Gus Richlen: Ruffian on Dec 28, 2018 12:07:10 GMT -5
Oh wow, one of Hogan's enablers is trying to cover for him again. Let me see where I left my shocked face. Can we not have people like yourself getting bent up over the discussion of what was good or bad in WCW here? Otherwise I'll misquote you and say you think all discussion FOR Hogan means you agree with racism I don't think me calling Bischoff what he is, which is in fact one of Hogan's enablers, is worth threatening me over. |
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Post by héad.casé on Dec 28, 2018 12:18:33 GMT -5
I do remember the Hogan/Flair double turn - I also remember hearing it was Flair's idea, because he felt the crowd wanted the red and yellow again. I don't think WCW 1999 was the place for Hogan to go back to the red and yellow. Hogan was my hero as a kid, and I didn't care for it.
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