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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Aug 20, 2019 21:40:24 GMT -5
I was listening to the Behind the Bastards on R. Kelly last night and it's astounding how many red flags there have been over the years.
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Post by Ringmaster on Aug 20, 2019 22:14:02 GMT -5
So I won't link it, but a simple twitter search reveals a very naive woman fan saying Kelly couldn't have done it, he's rich and good looking.
I want someone, anyone to tell me what is it about celebrity worship that creates these clouds of indifference and ignorance around them?
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 20, 2019 22:24:27 GMT -5
So I won't link it, but a simple twitter search reveals a very naive woman fan saying Kelly couldn't have done it, he's rich and good looking. I want someone, anyone to tell me what is it about celebrity worship that creates these clouds of indifference and ignorance around them? For some reason people have a hard time believing individuals they see as famous could do wrong. They use examples like well they may did somethings wrong but the victim isn't always innocent either which is something the black community tends to do a bit For example, some party I was at right after the whole shit with the R Kelly doc aired, we were all talking about it and you had a woman in her 40's arguing that well R Kelly shouldn't be in jail because while he may like little girls, he didn't sexually abuse or take advantage of all of them. "Fresh little girls" and their parents used that to their advantage. This is the type of shit you hear Now, while that may be true in terms of girls and parents taking advantage of a situation and knowing what they are doing. That does not apply to all of them. Besides that, no matter how "fresh" these little girls are there is no way they could out talk a man in his 40's. He is still the one in control and the one making this choice. You like little girls, that's wrong. Point. Blank. Period. You're a molester to all of them no matter the situation |
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Aug 21, 2019 6:24:55 GMT -5
I was listening to the Behind the Bastards on R. Kelly last night and it's astounding how many red flags there have been over the years. Yeah, after that video tape clearly showing him having sex with that underage girl came out I grew a sneaking suspicion that that Kelly guy might not be on the up and up |
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Aug 21, 2019 6:29:05 GMT -5
Why doesn't he just fly away? To Gotham City. So Batman can whoop his ass.  He even DRESSES like a villian from the Adam West Batman show |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 21, 2019 18:45:38 GMT -5
SHU should not exist. For anybody.
Part of the reason we have prisons is because we are supposed to be finding the actions of the criminal acceptable.
SHU is just torture. As someone said, not unlike he did to people, so aren't we meant to be above that? Nobody should have to go through that kind of isolation. It's not going to make you reflect on how you let society down. It's going to make you go crazy.
And someone observed earlier on how sometimes the narrative with R Kelly is as much about peeing on girls as it is about them being underage. I feel like I have seen the things being basically equated in some of the coverage.
Like, the f***ed up thing here is nothing to do with him peeing on people. Consenting adults can do that just fine. Who he is peeing on, though...
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Aug 21, 2019 20:39:45 GMT -5
SHU should not exist. For anybody. Provide an alternative. |
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on Aug 21, 2019 20:57:32 GMT -5
Sorry but anytime hear about this I just can't help but think of this
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Post by Susan "Poison" Candy on Aug 21, 2019 23:46:11 GMT -5
To Gotham City. So Batman can whoop his ass. He even DRESSES like a villian from the Adam West Batman show The Pink Panther aka The Gay Militant African American |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 22, 2019 1:58:29 GMT -5
SHU should not exist. For anybody. Provide an alternative. That sounds like something that somebody who works in prison reform should probably be doing rather than me. |
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 22, 2019 2:06:00 GMT -5
SHU should not exist. For anybody. Part of the reason we have prisons is because we are supposed to be finding the actions of the criminal acceptable. SHU is just torture. As someone said, not unlike he did to people, so aren't we meant to be above that? Nobody should have to go through that kind of isolation. It's not going to make you reflect on how you let society down. It's going to make you go crazy. And someone observed earlier on how sometimes the narrative with R Kelly is as much about peeing on girls as it is about them being underage. I feel like I have seen the things being basically equated in some of the coverage. Like, the f***ed up thing here is nothing to do with him peeing on people. Consenting adults can do that just fine. Who he is peeing on, though... I'm not fond of solitary, either, but there's the very real danger someone will murder him. It's not like with Bill Cosby, where his being elderly and blinding might confer some sympathy, he could very well get Jeffrey Dahmer'd in there. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 22, 2019 2:18:08 GMT -5
SHU should not exist. For anybody. Part of the reason we have prisons is because we are supposed to be finding the actions of the criminal acceptable. SHU is just torture. As someone said, not unlike he did to people, so aren't we meant to be above that? Nobody should have to go through that kind of isolation. It's not going to make you reflect on how you let society down. It's going to make you go crazy. And someone observed earlier on how sometimes the narrative with R Kelly is as much about peeing on girls as it is about them being underage. I feel like I have seen the things being basically equated in some of the coverage. Like, the f***ed up thing here is nothing to do with him peeing on people. Consenting adults can do that just fine. Who he is peeing on, though... I'm not fond of solitary, either, but there's the very real danger someone will murder him. It's not like with Bill Cosby, where his being elderly and blinding might confer some sympathy, he could very well get Jeffrey Dahmer'd in there. I agree, which is why there should be something else, I just have no idea what. I am always surprised at people being in favour of SHU for someone like this from the 'they deserve it' aspect anyway because in gen pop someone like Kelly is going to have A Bad Time as you say. |
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Aug 22, 2019 2:29:34 GMT -5
That sounds like something that somebody who works in prison reform should probably be doing rather than me. Yes, I know, there isn't an alternative. Such sweeping generalizations like "abolish segregation in prisons!" sure sounds neat and makes people nod. But it completely ignores the reality of corrections and blindly disregards the danger to staff and inmates when presented with a situation where we have nowhere to put predatory inmates or inmates that need to be isolated for their safety. Segregated housing is essential to corrections. And it's not all for punitive reasons, and not all as restrictive as where R Kelly is. I looked up the facility he was in, and I'm surprised he's in a max seg unit. He can't be housed in GP, but he can be placed on administrative seg and be allowed property and privileges. The big caveat to that, is we're getting that information from R Kelly's camp. How much credibility do we give them? Is it in their best interest to paint his confinement as bad as possible? |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 22, 2019 2:33:53 GMT -5
That sounds like something that somebody who works in prison reform should probably be doing rather than me. Yes, I know, there isn't an alternative. Such sweeping generalizations like "abolish segregation in prisons!" sure sounds neat and makes people nod. But it completely ignores the reality of corrections and blindly disregards the danger to staff and inmates when presented with a situation where we have nowhere to put predatory inmates or inmates that need to be isolated for their safety. Segregated housing is essential to corrections. And it's not all for punitive reasons, and not all as restrictive as where R Kelly is. I looked up the facility he was in, and I'm surprised he's in a max seg unit. He can't be housed in GP, but he can be placed on administrative seg and be allowed property and privileges. The big caveat to that, is we're getting that information from R Kelly's camp. How much credibility do we give them? Is it in their best interest to paint his confinement as bad as possible? I'm not trying to make people nod. I want a better humanity. I am aware that realistically you can't just get rid of isolation, and it is used to protect as much as anything else, particularly in a case like Kelly. When I talk about how it shouldn't exist, the legislative changes that would be needed to achieve that would be things that would take effect on someone years before they were old enough to commit a crime. It would be sweeping. And it would take a long time to take effect on things. Being the only option doesn't make something the good or right thing. |
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Aug 22, 2019 2:39:16 GMT -5
Yes, I know, there isn't an alternative. Such sweeping generalizations like "abolish segregation in prisons!" sure sounds neat and makes people nod. But it completely ignores the reality of corrections and blindly disregards the danger to staff and inmates when presented with a situation where we have nowhere to put predatory inmates or inmates that need to be isolated for their safety. Segregated housing is essential to corrections. And it's not all for punitive reasons, and not all as restrictive as where R Kelly is. I looked up the facility he was in, and I'm surprised he's in a max seg unit. He can't be housed in GP, but he can be placed on administrative seg and be allowed property and privileges. The big caveat to that, is we're getting that information from R Kelly's camp. How much credibility do we give them? Is it in their best interest to paint his confinement as bad as possible? When I talk about how it shouldn't exist, the legislative changes that would be needed to achieve that would be things that would take effect on someone years before they were old enough to commit a crime. It would be sweeping. And it would take a long time to take effect on things. Ok, like what? |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 22, 2019 2:44:50 GMT -5
When I talk about how it shouldn't exist, the legislative changes that would be needed to achieve that would be things that would take effect on someone years before they were old enough to commit a crime. It would be sweeping. And it would take a long time to take effect on things. Ok, like what? Some of this would get into things that I don't think can be discussed on this forum, but prisons being funded properly and not private would be one of the main ones. Social reforms so that there is less need to commit a crime in the first place, better education. And a justice system that is less built on punishment, which is not the same as justice, and more on rehabilitation and therapeutic work with the prisoners. More support for people who are leaving prison and have therefore paid their debt to society, to reduce recidivism. Some change to the law so that punishments aren't disproportionate, like the vast difference between the sentencing for possession of cocaine vs. crack cocaine. I freely admit I don't know the answers to all of this. Prison reform isn't something I know as much about. But not knowing what the alternative is, and a shitty option being the best one, doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking for one. |
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Aug 22, 2019 3:00:53 GMT -5
Some of this would get into things that I don't think can be discussed on this forum, but prisons being funded properly and not private would be one of the main ones. Social reforms so that there is less need to commit a crime in the first place, better education. And a justice system that is less built on punishment, which is not the same as justice, and more on rehabilitation and therapeutic work with the prisoners. More support for people who are leaving prison and have therefore paid their debt to society, to reduce recidivism. Some change to the law so that punishments aren't disproportionate, like the vast difference between the sentencing for possession of cocaine vs. crack cocaine. I freely admit I don't know the answers to all of this. Prison reform isn't something I know as much about. But not knowing what the alternative is, and a shitty option being the best one, doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking for one. We're somewhat hijacking this thread, and I've talked at length in various different threads about this very subject, so I'll be brief in my response, and we can part ways on this topic having learned from each other. The biggest challenge for people is when they get out of prison, and it just happens to be an arena that prisons have no influence over. Prisons can't do anything about prospective employers not wanting to hire people with records. So let's take a step back, exactly like you suggested, and look at reforming where reforming is feasible. Prison is the intractable dead end of the criminal justice system. It is reactive by nature and cannot change. Every decade or so as the money comes and goes people decide they want different things from their prisons. When they've got money it's about rehabilitation. When there's no money, it's about punishment. But the prison itself doesn't change. Only what outsiders want from it can change. The biggest reform is, in my opinion, decriminalizing drugs. The war on the poor has done so much damage to our society that we will likely never recover. And one of the effects from that is the explosion of the prison population, and thus more and more people entering and then exiting prisons with records they can't overcome in the eyes of the public. To better understand this, I cannot recommend enough the book The Corner, by David Simon and Ed Burns. And all the way back to your original point about segregation, long term segregation CAN change a person. Reuben Oldman was an inmate that got locked up so young, and knew only fighting, that he was perpetually in segregation. In the last few years of his sentence he was finally able to get out of segregation, but he didn't know how to talk to staff, and always came off as confrontational when he really wasn't. I talked to him shortly before I quit that facility and moved to Washington, and he was a couple months from getting out. His only plan was to get back on the rez and...that was it. He had no family waiting for him, no family that wanted him. No support system. The only family he knew, Arapahoe and Jordan, were both still locked up. I hope for the best for him, but his experience in prison has permanently changed him. Oh man, so much for being brief. Edit: another area that needs reforming are mandatory minimum sentencing guidelines. There's an interview on NPR about how those helped explode the prison population. Edit: and decriminalize prostitution. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 22, 2019 5:06:49 GMT -5
Some of this would get into things that I don't think can be discussed on this forum, but prisons being funded properly and not private would be one of the main ones. Social reforms so that there is less need to commit a crime in the first place, better education. And a justice system that is less built on punishment, which is not the same as justice, and more on rehabilitation and therapeutic work with the prisoners. More support for people who are leaving prison and have therefore paid their debt to society, to reduce recidivism. Some change to the law so that punishments aren't disproportionate, like the vast difference between the sentencing for possession of cocaine vs. crack cocaine. I freely admit I don't know the answers to all of this. Prison reform isn't something I know as much about. But not knowing what the alternative is, and a shitty option being the best one, doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking for one. We're somewhat hijacking this thread, and I've talked at length in various different threads about this very subject, so I'll be brief in my response, and we can part ways on this topic having learned from each other. The biggest challenge for people is when they get out of prison, and it just happens to be an arena that prisons have no influence over. Prisons can't do anything about prospective employers not wanting to hire people with records. So let's take a step back, exactly like you suggested, and look at reforming where reforming is feasible. Prison is the intractable dead end of the criminal justice system. It is reactive by nature and cannot change. Every decade or so as the money comes and goes people decide they want different things from their prisons. When they've got money it's about rehabilitation. When there's no money, it's about punishment. But the prison itself doesn't change. Only what outsiders want from it can change. The biggest reform is, in my opinion, decriminalizing drugs. The war on the poor has done so much damage to our society that we will likely never recover. And one of the effects from that is the explosion of the prison population, and thus more and more people entering and then exiting prisons with records they can't overcome in the eyes of the public. To better understand this, I cannot recommend enough the book The Corner, by David Simon and Ed Burns. And all the way back to your original point about segregation, long term segregation CAN change a person. Reuben Oldman was an inmate that got locked up so young, and knew only fighting, that he was perpetually in segregation. In the last few years of his sentence he was finally able to get out of segregation, but he didn't know how to talk to staff, and always came off as confrontational when he really wasn't. I talked to him shortly before I quit that facility and moved to Washington, and he was a couple months from getting out. His only plan was to get back on the rez and...that was it. He had no family waiting for him, no family that wanted him. No support system. The only family he knew, Arapahoe and Jordan, were both still locked up. I hope for the best for him, but his experience in prison has permanently changed him. Oh man, so much for being brief. Edit: another area that needs reforming are mandatory minimum sentencing guidelines. There's an interview on NPR about how those helped explode the prison population. Edit: and decriminalize prostitution. I need to come back and read this properly, but I want to thank you for discussing this with me so in depth and with such civility. I respect immensely that we were able to talk about this properly and thanks for taking the time to respond to me. |
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Aug 31, 2019 6:57:10 GMT -5
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Post by realist on Aug 31, 2019 8:34:22 GMT -5
R. Kelly's been lying about something?! Surely you jest!!! |
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