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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Jan 17, 2019 18:50:56 GMT -5
The solution to a bloated roster is simple.
NXT’s for every state in the country.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 18:51:21 GMT -5
I will say this: I love threads like this, because it brings out the on the sly pro-monopoly types, and I like to be aware of where those dudes heads are at. Bruh...this ain't a war lol. On the real I'll be honest, once I'm done with a discussion 99% of the time I forget about who I was responding to in one thread and let that be it. After this thread's done with I'm not going to remember who disagreed with me because at the end of the day we're just people on a forum. This isn't chess lol.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jan 17, 2019 18:53:17 GMT -5
I will say this: I love threads like this, because it brings out the on the sly pro-monopoly types, and I like to be aware of where those dudes heads are at. Bruh...this ain't a war lol. On the real I'll be honest, once I'm done with a discussion 99% of the time I forget about who I was responding to in one thread and let that be it. After this thread's done with I'm not going to remember who disagreed with me because at the end of the day we're just people on a forum. This isn't chess lol. That's fair. I like to be aware of the doublespeak people are using now to justify what big business does. That's what it is. You're letters on a screen to me dude, do you.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Jan 17, 2019 18:55:57 GMT -5
Lol. Oh wowie zowie.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 18:56:14 GMT -5
Honestly, for as horrid as some might think it is, and ik this comparison has been used in here before, but it isn’t like the WWE/Vince have these guys at gunpoint screaming to sign the contract because they’re the only game in town and money and YOULL BE A STAR, DAMNMIT, etc. These dudes know what they’re doing. A bloated roster is obviously not good, but if indie star 1 has either felt like he’s done it all and wants to try WWE or it was his lifelong dream to make it to WWE, then so be it. That same dude could’ve easily said no and continued to tear it up night after night in AEW or a different company all together.
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Post by Rudy Gobert Fadeaway on Jan 17, 2019 18:59:28 GMT -5
The solution to a bloated roster is simple. NXT’s for every state in the country. NXT L Train is popping the f*** off
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Post by abjordans on Jan 17, 2019 19:00:16 GMT -5
I don’t understand the “WWE hoards talent” thing. They essentially run 5 wrestling companies - NXT UK, NXT, 205 Live, Raw, and Smackdown. Guys and girls are getting lots of opportunities to show what they got. It’s not like they are signing the. And doing nothing with them. Why are fans offended if a guy gets signed and put in NXT. What is better than watching a Takeover? You should be ecstatic. Now, they are going to pay them even more so to do it. And guys and girls are still going to pass through ROH, NJPW, PWG, so you will get to see them there during their time there. And we will see what happens with AEW. Donovan Dijak(Or now, Dominik Dijakovic, what a stupid f***ing name) is a great young talent, he's been in NXT for a year. Without looking it up, tell me when his last televised match was? Hell, even looking it up, you're gonna be busy for a minute. THAT is hoarding talent. They have no interest in using the guy, they just wanted him on board so some other company wouln't make something out of him. And he's just the dude I can think of off the top of the dome. As you said, they're essentially running 5 companies, and they STILL don't have the air time to make use of the guys they have logjammed in developmental. And it's because they don't care to. As long as ROH or AEW or whomever doesn't have them, WWE's aces, baby. I go to NXT house show, I have seen him have 4 or 5 dope matches now, I never would have seen him if he didn’t come to NXT. And it isn’t like he was a top guy for a national promotion prior, he was a midcarder on the indys. He is starting to become a midcarder in NXT. His turn is coming. Were you watching him wrestler every week before he came to NXT? Or did you see him every now and then? Because it seems easier to see a guy like him now than it was in my opinion. I am just going by my experience, but he is already more widely exposed than he was previously.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jan 17, 2019 19:02:17 GMT -5
Donovan Dijak(Or now, Dominik Dijakovic, what a stupid f***ing name) is a great young talent, he's been in NXT for a year. Without looking it up, tell me when his last televised match was? Hell, even looking it up, you're gonna be busy for a minute. THAT is hoarding talent. They have no interest in using the guy, they just wanted him on board so some other company wouln't make something out of him. And he's just the dude I can think of off the top of the dome. As you said, they're essentially running 5 companies, and they STILL don't have the air time to make use of the guys they have logjammed in developmental. And it's because they don't care to. As long as ROH or AEW or whomever doesn't have them, WWE's aces, baby. I go to NXT house show, I have seen him have 4 or 5 dope matches now, I never would have seen him if he didn’t come to NXT. And it isn’t like he was a top guy for a national promotion prior, he was a midcarder on the indys. He is starting to become a midcarder in NXT. His turn is coming. Were you watching him wrestler every week before he came to NXT? Or did you see him every now and then? Because it seems easier to see a guy like him now than it was in my opinion. I am just going by my experience, but he is already more widely exposed than he was previously. Not really. Doing the Florida loop is NOT exposure. Again, tell me the last time he was on tv? That's what matters.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 19:03:14 GMT -5
Donovan Dijak(Or now, Dominik Dijakovic, what a stupid f***ing name) is a great young talent, he's been in NXT for a year. Without looking it up, tell me when his last televised match was? Hell, even looking it up, you're gonna be busy for a minute. THAT is hoarding talent. They have no interest in using the guy, they just wanted him on board so some other company wouln't make something out of him. And he's just the dude I can think of off the top of the dome. As you said, they're essentially running 5 companies, and they STILL don't have the air time to make use of the guys they have logjammed in developmental. And it's because they don't care to. As long as ROH or AEW or whomever doesn't have them, WWE's aces, baby. I go to NXT house show, I have seen him have 4 or 5 dope matches now, I never would have seen him if he didn’t come to NXT. And it isn’t like he was a top guy for a national promotion prior, he was a midcarder on the indys. He is starting to become a midcarder in NXT. His turn is coming. Were you watching him wrestler every week before he came to NXT? Or did you see him every now and then? Because it seems easier to see a guy like him now than it was in my opinion. I am just going by my experience, but he is already more widely exposed than he was previously. Yeah, it’s pretty clear that man is going to be a key player due to his size and athletic ability. Hell, there have been tons of coverage thanks to his matches with Riddle I believe? Either way, they’re clearly using him. I feel we forget that NXT is still development and a one hour program. I’d get it if it were 2 or 3, but it’s just one hour. They can’t possibly fit all talent in the span of an hour.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Jan 17, 2019 19:03:15 GMT -5
The solution to a bloated roster is simple. NXT’s for every state in the country. NXT L Train is popping the f*** off f*** NXT south carolina. I hope Bandido signs to NXT north carolina. That’s where the real shindigs are going down.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 19:05:03 GMT -5
I said earlier to me this isn't about the short term effect but the long term damage
The war between WCW and WWE left the preverbial scorched earth on alot of levels and took a long time for things to become healthy and thriving again and now we find ourselves as fans witnessing a healthy thriving wrestling landscape on the verge of a second coming of that scorched earth.
ROH , WWE , AEW.....all giant money players willing to spend spend spend which is again great for the wrestlers but making promises to double if not triple deals just to sign a talent is like I said earlier it wreeks of WCW introdoucing guaranteed money and guaranteed contracts and that was with WWE having to play the catch up game...now WWE is the one dictating how everything else plays out....and if they are willing to make promises like this with AEW not even doing anything yet it is a scary thought to think what this is gonna look like in just a year from now.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 17, 2019 19:06:14 GMT -5
I go to NXT house show, I have seen him have 4 or 5 dope matches now, I never would have seen him if he didn’t come to NXT. And it isn’t like he was a top guy for a national promotion prior, he was a midcarder on the indys. He is starting to become a midcarder in NXT. His turn is coming. Were you watching him wrestler every week before he came to NXT? Or did you see him every now and then? Because it seems easier to see a guy like him now than it was in my opinion. I am just going by my experience, but he is already more widely exposed than he was previously. Not really. Doing the Florida loop is NOT exposure. Again, tell me the last time he was on tv? That's what matters. Again, was he on tv more prior to signing with WWE?
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jan 17, 2019 19:12:03 GMT -5
Not really. Doing the Florida loop is NOT exposure. Again, tell me the last time he was on tv? That's what matters. Again, was he on tv more prior to signing with WWE? Through ROH's tv show? Absolutely yes.
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Post by Tenshigure on Jan 17, 2019 19:14:11 GMT -5
I'll just say this to those who are angry about WWE spending money to hire these guys: the only way the independents and upstart companies are going to compete with that checkbook is by gaining a following and exposure through mainstream channels. It's not going to be an overnight thing by any means, but the depth of talent out there struggling to make ends meet are getting opportunities because these "big indy names" are moving on to their next level, whether that be WWE, NJPW, CMLL, whatever. It's a cyclical business, and there's never going to be a monopolized situation where suddenly the ONLY pro wrestling is coming from one company.
Sure, YOUR favorite guys and girls may be going somewhere you don't like, or aren't getting pushed they way they should, but it is THEIR decision to work for the companies they sign for. If you want them to succeed, support their ventures and make it lucrative for them to practice their craft for you in the buildings and companies that they earned their stripes in. Be happy they are able to pay for their travel costs, medical expenses, and spend time with their families. The mere fact that new companies are becoming a threat to WWE's "winner takes all" mentality means that even the enhancement talent are going to be comfortable with new offers for a long time coming.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 17, 2019 19:17:39 GMT -5
Again, was he on tv more prior to signing with WWE? Through ROH's tv show? Absolutely yes. I think you are overestimating how much he was doing in ROH.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 17, 2019 19:18:07 GMT -5
Christ, people, cut it the hell out before the thread gets locked.
Anyway, no, this really isn't a good thing if it's indeed true. The goal of a company like WWE is, whether we want to admit it or not, to remove any and all possible competition. They want to be the entirety of the "major league" wrestling world; otherwise, NXT and the new NXT satellites wouldn't be a thing, nor would the deal with WWN/EVOLVE. This is for many reasons, not the least of which is because if they have that level of control then WWE is in a much stronger position to leverage their workers and reduce pay and benefits over time, at least relative to where they likely should be given future economic standards. The end goal is nothing new in the world of business: create an environment where the company holds all the cards and where labor has a weaker negotiating position. This is also seen in the way WWE does not really try to build major stars the way they once did; in today's environment, guys like Hogan, Austin, or Rock would simply have "too much leverage", and in the age of "the company is the draw, not the individual wrestlers", that wouldn't fly, so it is actively kept down.
I don't for one minute understand the "WWE isn't holding a gun to their heads!" argument; that's utterly irrelevant to the conversation at hand, because it's putting the onus on labor rather than focusing on the corporate entity that's behind the situation. People who work should be free to make as much as they possibly can, and in an industry as unsure and as free-wheeling a pro wrestling an individual worker cannot be blamed for putting themselves on the surest financial footing possible. Nobody is going to argue that: the responsibility to think of the bigger picture does not fall to the individual wrestlers, just as I shouldn't be blamed if I left my current job because I was offered a contract double the size of my current one...within reason, of course, as it'd be fair to blame someone who, say, signs a contract that says "you have to kick puppies and eat babies as part of this job" or whatever, but you know what I mean.
The problem is, as was mentioned previously, thinking long term for the overall health of the industry. There was a time when many, many people were able to make a full time living in pro wrestling; then cable rose, the WWF and JCP took advantage, and tons of smaller promotions that offered full time livings but smaller deals than what Vince or Crockett could afford went belly-up, sometimes due to their own hubris, sometimes due to shady business tactics by the bigger companies, sometimes simply because they couldn't replace the top stars they were losing quickly enough. When it was just WWF and WCW you had greater TV ratings than ever, but technically fewer people watching wrestling than had been before and fewer people making a full-time living in the business. Then WCW went down and the problem was only exacerbated: while some great indy talent rose in the early 2000s, there's no getting around that the industry at that point was looking a bit like a hellscape, with only TNA offering anything looking stable to anyone outside of WWE, and in that case only to a select few people on their roster.
Thankfully in recent years the scene has bounced back...somewhat. At the bare minimum it's at least more possible to make a full time living as a wrestler than it was just ten years ago, and that's great! But invariably if the scene keeps growing then new larger entities will arrive on the scene: AEW has multi-million dollar backing, NJPW is pushing beyond Japan, and even ROH seems serious about trying to keep the modest gains it's made in recent times. But the gap that exists between them and WWE is still large enough (barring AEW really taking off) that "competition" isn't a serious word in the industry yet, so this whole lovely ecosystem that's sprung up over the past decade is still pretty damned fragile.
Again, it's not for the individual talents to worry about: they have families to feed and lives to live, and work in and industry where you're beyond lucky and/or amazingly talented if you manage five active years earning full-time career money. Steps have been taken that could improve this overall situation in recent years and create a vibrant scene that offers a ton of opportunity for many different types of talents in many different places...but if WWE decides to, it can effectively choke a lot of it off at the root now. I don't blame Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Daniel Bryan, any of the NXT guys, or anybody else for making the type of living they can; until there's a wrestlers' union, it's the nature of the beast. But it doesn't mean it's good for the industry as a whole, nor for its future.
...Wow, that ran on longer than I wanted it to.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jan 17, 2019 19:21:26 GMT -5
Through ROH's tv show? Absolutely yes. I think you are overestimating how much he was doing in ROH. In his last year in ROH(Which, for context, runs shows less frequently than WWE) he had 14 televised appearances, three of which were PPVs. In his year and change of doing "the loop" in NXT, his total televised appearances? Two.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 17, 2019 19:21:54 GMT -5
Christ, people, cut it the hell out before the thread gets locked.Anyway, no, this really isn't a good thing if it's indeed true. The goal of a company like WWE is, whether we want to admit it or not, to remove any and all possible competition. They want to be the entirety of the "major league" wrestling world; otherwise, NXT and the new NXT satellites wouldn't be a thing, nor would the deal with WWN/EVOLVE. This is for many reasons, not the least of which is because if they have that level of control then WWE is in a much stronger position to leverage their workers and reduce pay and benefits over time, at least relative to where they likely should be given future economic standards. The end goal is nothing new in the world of business: create an environment where the company holds all the cards and where labor has a weaker negotiating position. This is also seen in the way WWE does not really try to build major stars the way they once did; in today's environment, guys like Hogan, Austin, or Rock would simply have "too much leverage", and in the age of "the company is the draw, not the individual wrestlers", that wouldn't fly, so it is actively kept down. I don't for one minute understand the "WWE isn't holding a gun to their heads!" argument; that's utterly irrelevant to the conversation at hand, because it's putting the onus on labor rather than focusing on the corporate entity that's behind the situation. People who work should be free to make as much as they possibly can, and in an industry as unsure and as free-wheeling a pro wrestling an individual worker cannot be blamed for putting themselves on the surest financial footing possible. Nobody is going to argue that: the responsibility to think of the bigger picture does not fall to the individual wrestlers, just as I shouldn't be blamed if I left my current job because I was offered a contract double the size of my current one...within reason, of course, as it'd be fair to blame someone who, say, signs a contract that says "you have to kick puppies and eat babies as part of this job" or whatever, but you know what I mean. The problem is, as was mentioned previously, thinking long term for the overall health of the industry. There was a time when many, many people were able to make a full time living in pro wrestling; then cable rose, the WWF and JCP took advantage, and tons of smaller promotions that offered full time livings but smaller deals than what Vince or Crockett could afford went belly-up, sometimes due to their own hubris, sometimes due to shady business tactics by the bigger companies, sometimes simply because they couldn't replace the top stars they were losing quickly enough. When it was just WWF and WCW you had greater TV ratings than ever, but technically fewer people watching wrestling than had been before and fewer people making a full-time living in the business. Then WCW went down and the problem was only exacerbated: while some great indy talent rose in the early 2000s, there's no getting around that the industry at that point was looking a bit like a hellscape, with only TNA offering anything looking stable to anyone outside of WWE, and in that case only to a select few people on their roster. Thankfully in recent years the scene has bounced back...somewhat. At the bare minimum it's at least more possible to make a full time living as a wrestler than it was just ten years ago, and that's great! But invariably if the scene keeps growing then new larger entities will arrive on the scene: AEW has multi-million dollar backing, NJPW is pushing beyond Japan, and even ROH seems serious about trying to keep the modest gains it's made in recent times. But the gap that exists between them and WWE is still large enough (barring AEW really taking off) that "competition" isn't a serious word in the industry yet, so this whole lovely ecosystem that's sprung up over the past decade is still pretty damned fragile. Again, it's not for the individual talents to worry about: they have families to feed and lives to live, and work in and industry where you're beyond lucky and/or amazingly talented if you manage five active years earning full-time career money. Steps have been taken that could improve this overall situation in recent years and create a vibrant scene that offers a ton of opportunity for many different types of talents in many different places...but if WWE decides to, it can effectively choke a lot of it off at the root now. I don't blame Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Daniel Bryan, any of the NXT guys, or anybody else for making the type of living they can; until there's a wrestlers' union, it's the nature of the beast. But it doesn't mean it's good for the industry as a whole, nor for its future. ...Wow, that ran on longer than I wanted it to. Can I ask what you are telling people to stop? Seems like people just having a bit and back and forth and sharing their opinions. Seems kind of weird to tell people to stop, then drop the most long winded rant in the whole thread.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 17, 2019 19:23:54 GMT -5
I think you are overestimating how much he was doing in ROH. In his last year in ROH(Which, for context, runs shows less frequently than WWE) he had 14 televised appearances, three of which were PPVs. In his year and change of doing "the loop" in NXT, his total televised appearances? Two. Let’s see where he is at in a year. He wasn’t a finished product like Adam Cole, he needed some work. How many of those ROH appearance were jobbing?
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 17, 2019 19:24:44 GMT -5
The solution to a bloated roster is simple. NXT’s for every state in the country. But then what do I do if my favourite wrestler isn’t NXT Wyoming Champion?
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