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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 19:26:05 GMT -5
Honestly, for as horrid as some might think it is, and ik this comparison has been used in here before, but it isn’t like the WWE/Vince have these guys at gunpoint screaming to sign the contract because they’re the only game in town and money and YOULL BE A STAR, DAMNMIT, etc. These dudes know what they’re doing. A bloated roster is obviously not good, but if indie star 1 has either felt like he’s done it all and wants to try WWE or it was his lifelong dream to make it to WWE, then so be it. That same dude could’ve easily said no and continued to tear it up night after night in AEW or a different company all together. That's the biggest thing that sticks out to me.
Some comments refer to the entire wrestling ecosystem, others refer to what people see as a viewer, others refer to how things will be in the future and it goes back to my initial point towards wrestlers getting paid as much as possible and feeding their families along with the fact that some responses are filled with the "future talk" nature to them. One thing's is happening in the present out of all of that that'll never change; people need to be fed asap. All of that future talk doesn't compete with people needing to eat then and there and for as much as. Money changes lives and that in itself can help more than yourself, it can help more than your own dream. All the "the Androids will kill everyone and I'm the only one who survives" talk can't equate to an electric bill on your coffee table that's due tomorrow.
At the same time these are adults who know what they're getting into. They're not babies, they're not kids, they're not weak-willed, they're not being forced, they know their options, they walked into on their own, they've got a lot of potential things to do if this wrestling thing doesn't work out. Like stated, it's their dream and they're working hard to follow their dreams. It's not an easy road but most dreams follow that same path. I'm not getting mad at the company in this case. It's like a kid who learned to not touch a hot eye on a stove. You see that red, you know what it is. You chose it.
Either way at the end of the day we know the road is tough but as an individual and an adult there's more responsibility on you making sure you don't step on any glass if you walk on that road compared to how that road became that way. You talk to your family and your friends about it, say you have a bad deal or something, they're going to be on your ass for doing it compared to what your employers are doing given you should have known better.
Again,
The moral of the story was that it was Bart's own decision for it. Milhouse was f***ed up accepting but hey man, Bart had to learn that lesson.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jan 17, 2019 19:26:56 GMT -5
In his last year in ROH(Which, for context, runs shows less frequently than WWE) he had 14 televised appearances, three of which were PPVs. In his year and change of doing "the loop" in NXT, his total televised appearances? Two. Let’s see where he is at in a year. He wasn’t a finished product like Adam Cole, he needed some work. How many of those ROH appearance were jobbing? I actually miscounted, it was 16 appearances, and he went 8-8, including a win on PPV and a Television Title #1 contender's match on his way out.
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Post by Rudy Gobert Fadeaway on Jan 17, 2019 19:27:02 GMT -5
The solution to a bloated roster is simple. NXT’s for every state in the country. But then what do I do if my favourite wrestler isn’t NXT Wyoming Champion? They can have a run in NXT Idaho where literally the only wrestler is Torrie Wilson
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Jan 17, 2019 19:28:36 GMT -5
The solution to a bloated roster is simple. NXT’s for every state in the country. But then what do I do if my favourite wrestler isn’t NXT Wyoming Champion? Tear down the capitalist system of course. Its just that simple.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 19:32:17 GMT -5
But then what do I do if my favourite wrestler isn’t NXT Wyoming Champion? They can have a run in NXT Idaho where literally the only wrestler is Torrie Wilson Torrie Wilson vs a broomstick at takeover: .. *looks it up* Cheyenne was perfect.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 17, 2019 19:32:38 GMT -5
Christ, people, cut it the hell out before the thread gets locked.Anyway, no, this really isn't a good thing if it's indeed true. The goal of a company like WWE is, whether we want to admit it or not, to remove any and all possible competition. They want to be the entirety of the "major league" wrestling world; otherwise, NXT and the new NXT satellites wouldn't be a thing, nor would the deal with WWN/EVOLVE. This is for many reasons, not the least of which is because if they have that level of control then WWE is in a much stronger position to leverage their workers and reduce pay and benefits over time, at least relative to where they likely should be given future economic standards. The end goal is nothing new in the world of business: create an environment where the company holds all the cards and where labor has a weaker negotiating position. This is also seen in the way WWE does not really try to build major stars the way they once did; in today's environment, guys like Hogan, Austin, or Rock would simply have "too much leverage", and in the age of "the company is the draw, not the individual wrestlers", that wouldn't fly, so it is actively kept down. I don't for one minute understand the "WWE isn't holding a gun to their heads!" argument; that's utterly irrelevant to the conversation at hand, because it's putting the onus on labor rather than focusing on the corporate entity that's behind the situation. People who work should be free to make as much as they possibly can, and in an industry as unsure and as free-wheeling a pro wrestling an individual worker cannot be blamed for putting themselves on the surest financial footing possible. Nobody is going to argue that: the responsibility to think of the bigger picture does not fall to the individual wrestlers, just as I shouldn't be blamed if I left my current job because I was offered a contract double the size of my current one...within reason, of course, as it'd be fair to blame someone who, say, signs a contract that says "you have to kick puppies and eat babies as part of this job" or whatever, but you know what I mean. The problem is, as was mentioned previously, thinking long term for the overall health of the industry. There was a time when many, many people were able to make a full time living in pro wrestling; then cable rose, the WWF and JCP took advantage, and tons of smaller promotions that offered full time livings but smaller deals than what Vince or Crockett could afford went belly-up, sometimes due to their own hubris, sometimes due to shady business tactics by the bigger companies, sometimes simply because they couldn't replace the top stars they were losing quickly enough. When it was just WWF and WCW you had greater TV ratings than ever, but technically fewer people watching wrestling than had been before and fewer people making a full-time living in the business. Then WCW went down and the problem was only exacerbated: while some great indy talent rose in the early 2000s, there's no getting around that the industry at that point was looking a bit like a hellscape, with only TNA offering anything looking stable to anyone outside of WWE, and in that case only to a select few people on their roster. Thankfully in recent years the scene has bounced back...somewhat. At the bare minimum it's at least more possible to make a full time living as a wrestler than it was just ten years ago, and that's great! But invariably if the scene keeps growing then new larger entities will arrive on the scene: AEW has multi-million dollar backing, NJPW is pushing beyond Japan, and even ROH seems serious about trying to keep the modest gains it's made in recent times. But the gap that exists between them and WWE is still large enough (barring AEW really taking off) that "competition" isn't a serious word in the industry yet, so this whole lovely ecosystem that's sprung up over the past decade is still pretty damned fragile. Again, it's not for the individual talents to worry about: they have families to feed and lives to live, and work in and industry where you're beyond lucky and/or amazingly talented if you manage five active years earning full-time career money. Steps have been taken that could improve this overall situation in recent years and create a vibrant scene that offers a ton of opportunity for many different types of talents in many different places...but if WWE decides to, it can effectively choke a lot of it off at the root now. I don't blame Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Daniel Bryan, any of the NXT guys, or anybody else for making the type of living they can; until there's a wrestlers' union, it's the nature of the beast. But it doesn't mean it's good for the industry as a whole, nor for its future. ...Wow, that ran on longer than I wanted it to. Can I ask what you are telling people to stop? Seems like people just having a bit and back and forth and sharing their opinions. Seems kind of weird to tell people to stop, then drop the most long winded rant in the whole thread. The sniping about "pro-monopoly" stuff. People can give their opinions, but the petty sounding shit had to stop. Unfortunately for me, about a dozen comments went up before I finished my screed.
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Post by Error on Jan 17, 2019 19:32:56 GMT -5
Through ROH's tv show? Absolutely yes. I think you are overestimating how much he was doing in ROH. Honestly I think you're over estimating how many people watch the weekly NXT shows. I seem to remember hearing that outside of the Takeover specials NXT 4 to 500k watching. I'm not saying ROH is getting that many but the gap is closer than you think.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 17, 2019 19:33:27 GMT -5
Let’s see where he is at in a year. He wasn’t a finished product like Adam Cole, he needed some work. How many of those ROH appearance were jobbing? I actually miscounted, it was 16 appearances, and he went 8-8, including a win on PPV and a Television Title #1 contender's match on his way out. So, he was wrestling on tv once about every 3 weeks and not exactly setting the world on fire. So he goes to WWE and is trained for a year by Shawn Freaking Michaels and is now being put into the mix and starting to get pushed on NXT. Seems like he made a good choice to me. I just think he isn’t a good example of someone being wasted, they obviously have plans for him.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 17, 2019 19:35:33 GMT -5
I think you are overestimating how much he was doing in ROH. Honestly I think you're over estimating how many people watch the weekly NXT shows. I seem to remember hearing that outside of the Takeover specials NXT 4 to 500k watching. I'm not saying ROH is getting that many but the gap is closer than you think. I don’t think a combined 500k people watch the weekly ROH shows.8 have nothing to back that up other than my gut, but I bet they don’t get close to that. I could lose that bet, but that is what I am taking.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jan 17, 2019 19:36:06 GMT -5
I actually miscounted, it was 16 appearances, and he went 8-8, including a win on PPV and a Television Title #1 contender's match on his way out. So, he was wrestling on tv once about every 3 weeks and not exactly setting the world on fire. So he goes to WWE and is trained for a year by Shawn Freaking Michaels and is now being put into the mix and starting to get pushed on NXT. Seems like he made a good choice to me. I just think he isn’t a good example of someone being wasted, they obviously have plans for him. Where are they then? He's been there for a year and a half, and has been on tv twice. What plans or push are you seeing? From what I can tell, he spends most of his time jobbing on the Florida house shows.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 17, 2019 19:37:36 GMT -5
So, he was wrestling on tv once about every 3 weeks and not exactly setting the world on fire. So he goes to WWE and is trained for a year by Shawn Freaking Michaels and is now being put into the mix and starting to get pushed on NXT. Seems like he made a good choice to me. I just think he isn’t a good example of someone being wasted, they obviously have plans for him. Where are they then? He's been there for a year and a half, and has been on tv twice. What plans or push are you seeing? From what I can tell, he spends most of his time jobbing on the Florida house shows. They are showing vignettes for him on tv, he wrestled on the last two set of tapings, he is in the tournament Rumble weekend.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 19:37:42 GMT -5
Here's something that I'm not sure was ever asked.
1. What's the best possible outcome in your opinion from this and AEW? 2. How much do you wish wrestlers were paid? You can compare the dollars to other sports or industries. 3. Would you let WWE still be the biggest on the block? Would you want others overtaking it? 4. Five years from now, what's the best possible position you'd want to see this industry that's actually reachable?
Basically, what do you all want from this whole thing? I know most will say "I want all wrestlers paid more and I want the industry to thrive where everyone gets a chance to be great" but break down what you actually mean by that and how that's possible because that can mean a variety of different things. From where I'm seeing I think most people would rather WWE/AEW and the rest to be sort of Playstation/Nintendo/Microsoft but even that comparison has some issues with it.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 17, 2019 19:43:22 GMT -5
Here's something that I'm not sure was ever asked. What's the best possible outcome in your opinion from this and AEW? How much do you wish wrestlers were paid? You can compare the dollars to other sports or industries. Would you let WWE still be the biggest on the block? Would you want others overtaking it? 5 years from now, what's the best possible position you'd want to see this industry that's actually reachable? Basically, what do you all want from this whole thing? I know most will say "I want all wrestlers paid more and I want the industry to thrive where everyone gets a chance to be great" but break down what you actually mean by that and how that's possible because that can mean a variety of different things. Personally? For WWE to structure their contracts to be fairer to workers with whatever benefits AEW proposes (if they do) and for them to not have to keep people around if they’re not happy just for the sake of it. I know WWE won’t be knocked off their perch of AEW, but I honestly want the fear of God put into them that they could and if they aren’t at the very least bring forward thinking with how they treat talent and not blaming them for when stuff fails that somewhere else can treat them better. Whether that happens, no idea, but they’ve needed a shakeup for a long time in this manner.
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Post by Error on Jan 17, 2019 19:47:38 GMT -5
Honestly I think you're over estimating how many people watch the weekly NXT shows. I seem to remember hearing that outside of the Takeover specials NXT 4 to 500k watching. I'm not saying ROH is getting that many but the gap is closer than you think. I don’t think a combined 500k people watch the weekly ROH shows.8 have nothing to back that up other than my gut, but I bet they don’t get close to that. I could lose that bet, but that is what I am taking. [ Fair enough, I'm just going off a memory from a bit back so even if it was right, there is a chance it could be way off these days. I actually miscounted, it was 16 appearances, and he went 8-8, including a win on PPV and a Television Title #1 contender's match on his way out. So, he was wrestling on tv once about every 3 weeks and not exactly setting the world on fire. So he goes to WWE and is trained for a year by Shawn Freaking Michaels and is now being put into the mix and starting to get pushed on NXT. Seems like he made a good choice to me. I just think he isn’t a good example of someone being wasted, they obviously have plans for him. And on top of that, as seem by the mass exodus of talent from ROH around that time, he (and many others) didn't see ROH as a place to stay.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jan 17, 2019 19:47:55 GMT -5
I think it's a balance thing; the talent don't have guns to their heads and they're going to do what they do, but WWE is still making a lot of decisions that could do damage and are questionable in a lot of ways. I think calling anyone in this thread pro-monopoly is a bit of a reach, but there is definitely a precedent here for how a company throwing around its money and leverage to squash the competition and then make things shitty once they've won. Look at Walmart's effects on small towns not only with the businesses stomped on on their way in, but in what that does to the town's ecosystem once they're the only ones in the game, and you see the kind of shit I think is right to be worried about. How much WWE self-destructs on the way to killing the competition could only make things worse. There's a factor there where I'm not blaming anyone for taking the money, but hell yeah I'm going to blame the billionaire who's playing with fire just to "win"
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jan 17, 2019 19:51:17 GMT -5
Also to add;
Take out those f***ing clauses from partner companies where they can close them if they want to for PROGRESS, and ICW.
Will they use them? Probably not because that’d wreck their relationship in the UK with fans but the fact it’s there is concern enough even if it’s a “usual clause” or whatever.
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Perd
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Post by Perd on Jan 17, 2019 20:02:54 GMT -5
I just always wonder if they eventually don’t overextend themselves. If they become so bloated that the bottom falls out. I just don’t know if the worldwide appetite, for professional wrestling, is as robust as it needs to be, to support this behemoth ov r the longtime. They keep signing guys and launching new brands. And that all cost money. Just how deep is their well? I know the TV deals gave them a lot of leeway, but that’s still a finite amount of money. At what point does it become too much?
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Jan 17, 2019 20:04:55 GMT -5
I just always wonder if they eventually don’t overextend themselves. If they become so bloated that the bottom falls out. I just don’t know if the worldwide appetite, for professional wrestling, is as robust as it needs to be, to support this behemoth ov r the longtime. They keep signing guys and launching new brands. And that all cost money. Just how deep is their well? I know the TV deals gave them a lot of leeway, but that’s still a finite amount of money. At what point does it become too much?
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 17, 2019 20:05:05 GMT -5
Here's something that I'm not sure was ever asked. 1. What's the best possible outcome in your opinion from this and AEW? 2. How much do you wish wrestlers were paid? You can compare the dollars to other sports or industries. 3. Would you let WWE still be the biggest on the block? Would you want others overtaking it? 4. Five years from now, what's the best possible position you'd want to see this industry that's actually reachable? Basically, what do you all want from this whole thing? I know most will say "I want all wrestlers paid more and I want the industry to thrive where everyone gets a chance to be great" but break down what you actually mean by that and how that's possible because that can mean a variety of different things. From where I'm seeing I think most people would rather WWE/AEW and the rest to be sort of Playstation/Nintendo/Microsoft but even that comparison has some issues with it. 1. Just for wrestling to be generally healthy and interesting. I want the best wrestlers with the best characters in the best stories having the best matches they can, no matter which company it is. Whether that actually brings better TV ratings and more subscriptions to WWE Network or whatever AEW does or not is just down to luck, but hopefully it would. 2. Ideally, for the amount of work they do, a wrestler in a major company should be paid in a comparable amount to a top sports star. The wrestling season never stops, not just in WWE, but everywhere. But it’s near impossible to gauge who should get the most. In real sports, it’s f***ing easy as pie, whoever the best player is gets the biggest contracts. In wrestling, you’re only as good as you’re written to be so it’s a complete crapshoot. 3. If they’re putting in the work to warrant it and aren’t just there because they’ve always been, then sure. If other companies like AEW eventually get big enough to compete with and possibly pass WWE, then I’m fine with that 4. Basically #1. That everyone gets their fair shots and whoever is in charge of either company allows the cream to naturally rise to the top of the card off the back of good writing and booking.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 17, 2019 20:09:23 GMT -5
I want an industry with at least three high-paying companies talent can work for, and a solid scene just beneath that that produces new talent on the regular to feed into that. The companies don't all have to work the same way (e.g. they don't all have to be the "weekly 2 hour show and monthly PPV" format), but that'd give the talent a lot of negotiating power, and could be strong enough to create an environment where a union could develop. Then again, I'd also love to see a Japan-like situation where the big companies are willing to work together now and then, feels like a healthier existence for the industry than the cutthroat approach that's plagued North American wrestling.
EDIT: That said, I can't compare wrestling with other major sports, because they're structured too differently. It's not like there's a massive NWA around today with a bunch of smaller promotions all "in competition" with one another but still making money for the larger corporate umbrella the way that the 30 MLB teams compete with one another but still pool money for Major League Baseball.
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