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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Feb 2, 2019 12:30:59 GMT -5
Where are y'all getting these takes from I am genuinely f***ing baffled
I am equally baffled by people defending this. It’s crazy to think that in 2019 when wrestling is more exposed that ever before that stiffing even exists, and people actually defend it. Congrats, you hit someone for real in a fake fight that everyone knows is fake. “But the other guy agreed to it”. Well, he’s a moron too, then. But you're comparing a botched punch that broke someone's nose as gave them a concussion to some stiff strikes giving them sore chest. And yes, the actual agreement does matter significantly. You can think the other guy is a moron for it, but there's still actually agreement going in for this style of match and again, a general sense that it isn't dangerous the way a hundred other ways to be stiff can be. The Becky/Nia thing is a hefty stretch at bare minimum. |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Feb 2, 2019 13:03:09 GMT -5
I am equally baffled by people defending this. It’s crazy to think that in 2019 when wrestling is more exposed that ever before that stiffing even exists, and people actually defend it. Congrats, you hit someone for real in a fake fight that everyone knows is fake. “But the other guy agreed to it”. Well, he’s a moron too, then. But you're comparing a botched punch that broke someone's nose as gave them a concussion to some stiff strikes giving them sore chest. And yes, the actual agreement does matter significantly. You can think the other guy is a moron for it, but there's still actually agreement going in for this style of match and again, a general sense that it isn't dangerous the way a hundred other ways to be stiff can be. The Becky/Nia thing is a hefty stretch at bare minimum. Yea, the arguments are all over the place like we really complaining about a chop which can't be worked. Like I swear this went over people heads, this was a showcase match for WALTER and in leaving that hand print it creates an impressive visual more so than a squash match could. Big Show has slapped people hard on the chest for years and the sound is impressive but it's forgotten, Flair and HBK used it constantly. He's not going to do that to every person, no f***ing way and if he does it means it was part of the match, not that he did it on a whim to get himself over
People really think he did this on purpose? If he did this without his opponent giving his blessing, he'd been fired as soon as got post the curtain in the back. You can't compare an accident like Nia/Becky where it's a scrum with many people in the ring as compared to a match they most likely thought out ahead of time. WWE isn't posting that picture if he did it just because in the ring.
Everything leaves marks in the ring on your body from complex top rope moves from just simply running the ropes
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Post by BatPunk on Feb 2, 2019 14:24:43 GMT -5
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Feb 2, 2019 15:46:46 GMT -5
Let's not even start on how bad simple bumps can wreck your shit over time. From flat back bumps to any gimmick match involving a ladder or whathaveyou. All of these are way worse than a chop.
I'm 100% keeping these guys and gals safe and avoiding stupid risk. I can't speak for anyone else in this thread, but this argument is NOT over being in favor of dumb ass injuries or risk.
But putting chops anywhere on that list of harmful bad ideas? This ain't it.
I fully believe this odd blowback to chops comes from that Bret quote, and that only came along as a way to lower the sea level to make his island seem bigger.
If you don't like them fine, I'm not gonna tell you what to be a fan of. I don't think spinning wheel kicks are great so whatever I guess.
But to claim it's due to the physical well being of guys (which is an entirely valid concern), this doesn't even belong being an honorable mention in that particular discussion.
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Feb 2, 2019 16:10:51 GMT -5
I am equally baffled by people defending this. It’s crazy to think that in 2019 when wrestling is more exposed that ever before that stiffing even exists, and people actually defend it. Congrats, you hit someone for real in a fake fight that everyone knows is fake. “But the other guy agreed to it”. Well, he’s a moron too, then. You're free to think that. If there was a list on the ways wrestlers hurt themselves on the job I would consider this pretty low on the list. People have been chopping people hard for decades, we don't have a wrestler today warning others of the dangers of chops or anything. I understand Bret's thing about not hurting the other opponent, but then there are wrestlers like Lance Storm who is one of the biggest proponents out there on safe wrestling, and from what I understand he has a whole day of his training dedicated to performing chops. There's a lot of "wrestling was supposed to be _____" arguments when wrestling in the first place was never meant to be an art form-it was a carny act to con people out of money-so I don't know why anyone is pretending that WALTER's committing some sort of sacrilege. I certainly understand someone thinking it's stupid, but I dunno, some are making this out to be far more sinister than it is. From listening to Lance podcasts I would imagine that training would be dedicated to how to chop "safely" and NOT leave huge welts and cuts. He's always preaching that it's not the moves that are dangerous it's unskilled wrestlers. I've heard him talking about how EVERYTHING is safe if you do it properly. If you know how to throw/take good fake punches then you won't get concussed. Piledrivers aren't dangerous if you know how to give/take them properly. Stuff like that. I can't imagine him endorsing just hammering people on the chest til they bleed. |
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Post by Hulk With A Mustache on Feb 2, 2019 17:08:59 GMT -5
But his stupid ring name certainly is. He's so badass he doesn't need a cool name. |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Feb 2, 2019 17:33:10 GMT -5
You're free to think that. If there was a list on the ways wrestlers hurt themselves on the job I would consider this pretty low on the list. People have been chopping people hard for decades, we don't have a wrestler today warning others of the dangers of chops or anything. I understand Bret's thing about not hurting the other opponent, but then there are wrestlers like Lance Storm who is one of the biggest proponents out there on safe wrestling, and from what I understand he has a whole day of his training dedicated to performing chops. There's a lot of "wrestling was supposed to be _____" arguments when wrestling in the first place was never meant to be an art form-it was a carny act to con people out of money-so I don't know why anyone is pretending that WALTER's committing some sort of sacrilege. I certainly understand someone thinking it's stupid, but I dunno, some are making this out to be far more sinister than it is. From listening to Lance podcasts I would imagine that training would be dedicated to how to chop "safely" and NOT leave huge welts and cuts. He's always preaching that it's not the moves that are dangerous it's unskilled wrestlers. I've heard him talking about how EVERYTHING is safe if you do it properly. If you know how to throw/take good fake punches then you won't get concussed. Piledrivers aren't dangerous if you know how to give/take them properly. Stuff like that. I can't imagine him endorsing just hammering people on the chest til they bleed. But he's not throwing chops like that as his regular chops
That imprint on his chest is no different than a ladder spot. It was called to happen and you see the results after except instead of bodies lying on the floor, you get a visual of a hand print
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Feb 2, 2019 17:50:15 GMT -5
As someone who is completely unfamiliar with WALTER, besides two compilation vidoes of the guy that I just looked up, I can't help but wonder:
Since chopping people is something that got him over, what happens if/when someone doesn't want to take any of WALTER's chops because they're not comfortable with the move? How would that hinder a WALTER match if the guy couldn't pull out the move that has helped him butter his bread, so to speak?
I lean more towards the idea that doing stuff in the ring that legitimately hurts is basically dumb, but I also recognize that chops are much more safer, relatively speaking, than other dumb things wrestlers have done in the decades professional wrestling has been a thing.
That being said, chops themselves still break the logic of the working of a shoot that is professional wrestling when WALTER chops a guy, knocks him down, and doesn't try to immediately go for a pin-fall or submission. The same can be said for pretty much all moves in professional wrestling, however, so, your mileage may vary.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Feb 2, 2019 18:32:21 GMT -5
You're free to think that. If there was a list on the ways wrestlers hurt themselves on the job I would consider this pretty low on the list. People have been chopping people hard for decades, we don't have a wrestler today warning others of the dangers of chops or anything. I understand Bret's thing about not hurting the other opponent, but then there are wrestlers like Lance Storm who is one of the biggest proponents out there on safe wrestling, and from what I understand he has a whole day of his training dedicated to performing chops. There's a lot of "wrestling was supposed to be _____" arguments when wrestling in the first place was never meant to be an art form-it was a carny act to con people out of money-so I don't know why anyone is pretending that WALTER's committing some sort of sacrilege. I certainly understand someone thinking it's stupid, but I dunno, some are making this out to be far more sinister than it is. From listening to Lance podcasts I would imagine that training would be dedicated to how to chop "safely" and NOT leave huge welts and cuts. He's always preaching that it's not the moves that are dangerous it's unskilled wrestlers. I've heard him talking about how EVERYTHING is safe if you do it properly. If you know how to throw/take good fake punches then you won't get concussed. Piledrivers aren't dangerous if you know how to give/take them properly. Stuff like that. I can't imagine him endorsing just hammering people on the chest til they bleed. There is no way to chop people "safely". A chop is a chop it's going to cause a welt regardless. |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Feb 2, 2019 18:39:16 GMT -5
From listening to Lance podcasts I would imagine that training would be dedicated to how to chop "safely" and NOT leave huge welts and cuts. He's always preaching that it's not the moves that are dangerous it's unskilled wrestlers. I've heard him talking about how EVERYTHING is safe if you do it properly. If you know how to throw/take good fake punches then you won't get concussed. Piledrivers aren't dangerous if you know how to give/take them properly. Stuff like that. I can't imagine him endorsing just hammering people on the chest til they bleed. There is no way to chop people "safely". A chop is a chop it's going to cause a welt regardless. And as you mentioned earlier everything hurts no matter how "safe" it is
You can't work a chop like you can a super kick or a punch
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Feb 2, 2019 18:45:21 GMT -5
From listening to Lance podcasts I would imagine that training would be dedicated to how to chop "safely" and NOT leave huge welts and cuts. He's always preaching that it's not the moves that are dangerous it's unskilled wrestlers. I've heard him talking about how EVERYTHING is safe if you do it properly. If you know how to throw/take good fake punches then you won't get concussed. Piledrivers aren't dangerous if you know how to give/take them properly. Stuff like that. I can't imagine him endorsing just hammering people on the chest til they bleed. There is no way to chop people "safely". A chop is a chop it's going to cause a welt regardless. I don't know about that. Not everyone who gets chopped ends up with a chest like the pic that started this thread. Walter is obviously putting extra sauce on it to leave a mark. From listening to Lance podcasts I would imagine that training would be dedicated to how to chop "safely" and NOT leave huge welts and cuts. He's always preaching that it's not the moves that are dangerous it's unskilled wrestlers. I've heard him talking about how EVERYTHING is safe if you do it properly. If you know how to throw/take good fake punches then you won't get concussed. Piledrivers aren't dangerous if you know how to give/take them properly. Stuff like that. I can't imagine him endorsing just hammering people on the chest til they bleed. But he's not throwing chops like that as his regular chops That imprint on his chest is no different than a ladder spot. It was called to happen and you see the results after except instead of bodies lying on the floor, you get a visual of a hand print
Yeah but you can learn how to fall off a 20ft ladder. Wait a minute... |
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Feb 2, 2019 18:49:23 GMT -5
From listening to Lance podcasts I would imagine that training would be dedicated to how to chop "safely" and NOT leave huge welts and cuts. He's always preaching that it's not the moves that are dangerous it's unskilled wrestlers. I've heard him talking about how EVERYTHING is safe if you do it properly. If you know how to throw/take good fake punches then you won't get concussed. Piledrivers aren't dangerous if you know how to give/take them properly. Stuff like that. I can't imagine him endorsing just hammering people on the chest til they bleed. There is no way to chop people "safely". A chop is a chop it's going to cause a welt regardless. Well you could just paint brush em with it, to be fair. You don't get that snap noise out of it but there's nothing preventing the guy taking it from grimacing and acting like he just got lit up something fierce. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 2, 2019 21:50:16 GMT -5
As someone who is completely unfamiliar with WALTER, besides two compilation vidoes of the guy that I just looked up, I can't help but wonder: Since chopping people is something that got him over, what happens if/when someone doesn't want to take any of WALTER's chops because they're not comfortable with the move? How would that hinder a WALTER match if the guy couldn't pull out the move that has helped him butter his bread, so to speak? I lean more towards the idea that doing stuff in the ring that legitimately hurts is basically dumb, but I also recognize that chops are much more safer, relatively speaking, than other dumb things wrestlers have done in the decades professional wrestling has been a thing. That being said, chops themselves still break the logic of the working of a shoot that is professional wrestling when WALTER chops a guy, knocks him down, and doesn't try to immediately go for a pin-fall or submission. The same can be said for pretty much all moves in professional wrestling, however, so, your mileage may vary. WALTER is a really good worker, he doesn't need the stiff chops in every match to have really good performances. In fact, part of what could work brilliantly would be a match with a guy who doesn't want to take them, so they work out a story where the whole approach and story is that the opponent keeps dodging the strike, so either they throw WALTER off his game and beat him or WALTER adjusts and takes them apart in a different way. But by establishing the chops as deadly, the simple threat of them is enough to get a crowd invested in the proceedings and enough to construct an intriguing in-ring story. Speaking as a H(itman)Mark, I'll give Bret's argument some credence: Hart's fully aware that pain is unavoidable in pro wrestling, but I can see the argument from his perspective that doing loud chops to get a crowd reaction is dumb because it involves actively seeking out pain to elicit the reaction when you have the available alternative of just doing worked punches or something. That said, I don't fully agree with Bret: I absolutely love heavy-hitting wrestling, from loving the Four Pillars of AJPW in the 90s, to Vader, to even Scott Norton being my low-key favorite nWo guy, and as long as everybody involved is cool with taking the strikes, prepared for them, and capable of taking and delivering them well, I'm not going to sit here and lie by saying I don't enjoy them immensely, and I won't neglect the amazing stories and great matches so many of those heavy-hitters have had over the years. |
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Post by cuppacoffee - slight return on Feb 3, 2019 9:16:48 GMT -5
I’ve really not got a great deal to contribute to this thread - only that stiff chops created my favourite sequence in one of my all-time favourite matches: m.youtube.com/watch?v=FaTXzeBuQSgTwo consenting, big, sturdy, grown-up men, who (importantly) clearly trust each other, involved in a performance which has a crowd completely mesmerised. I have no problem with that, and if WALTER were to do something similar, with a similar-minded guy to work with (Joe?) Id probably love it. |
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Post by Prince Petty on Feb 4, 2019 1:49:04 GMT -5
As someone who is completely unfamiliar with WALTER, besides two compilation vidoes of the guy that I just looked up, I can't help but wonder: Since chopping people is something that got him over, what happens if/when someone doesn't want to take any of WALTER's chops because they're not comfortable with the move? How would that hinder a WALTER match if the guy couldn't pull out the move that has helped him butter his bread, so to speak? Well you see, that's where 'the opponent agreed take the move, so it's fine' falls apart. Because once someone like Walter has established this as a gimmick that people expect, everyone who faces him will feel pressured into agreeing to take them, or potentially lose favour or opportunities. Sure, the more established guys could probably tell him to f*** off, but any younger guys trying to make an impression, and especially any jobbers who've been told this is their big chance, will have to agree to them if they want to work. |
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Feb 4, 2019 2:27:22 GMT -5
As someone who is completely unfamiliar with WALTER, besides two compilation vidoes of the guy that I just looked up, I can't help but wonder: Since chopping people is something that got him over, what happens if/when someone doesn't want to take any of WALTER's chops because they're not comfortable with the move? How would that hinder a WALTER match if the guy couldn't pull out the move that has helped him butter his bread, so to speak? Well you see, that's where 'the opponent agreed take the move, so it's fine' falls apart. Because once someone like Walter has established this as a gimmick that people expect, everyone who faces him will feel pressured into agreeing to take them, or potentially lose favour or opportunities. Sure, the more established guys could probably tell him to f*** off, but any younger guys trying to make an impression, and especially any jobbers who've been told this is their big chance, will have to agree to them if they want to work. It doesn't fall apart. You just wouldn't whack em as hard. |
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Post by Mozenrath on Feb 4, 2019 2:32:10 GMT -5
For me, I feel like this is okay in doses, but this should absolutely not be the norm for him, but I am sure that's how it'd even out, anyway. You do this nightly, it wouldn't get a reaction anymore, anyway.
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 4, 2019 8:44:59 GMT -5
Well you see, that's where 'the opponent agreed take the move, so it's fine' falls apart. Because once someone like Walter has established this as a gimmick that people expect, everyone who faces him will feel pressured into agreeing to take them, or potentially lose favour or opportunities. Sure, the more established guys could probably tell him to f*** off, but any younger guys trying to make an impression, and especially any jobbers who've been told this is their big chance, will have to agree to them if they want to work. It doesn't fall apart. You just wouldn't whack em as hard. Right, it's basically that the exact opposite that happens: you pull off the tough/harder hitting stuff once, that means you don't have to do it later. Ultimate example of that is Kenta Kobashi only using the Burning Hammer a few times in his career; it's a tough move, no doubt, but its mere existence as a possibility in the mind of the crowd means it'll color the audience's perception of any major Kobashi match going forward. Just so, though obviously not at the same level, WALTER's chops are now firmly established to the audience, so there's really no "need" to hit as hard next time, it'll likely be saved for a major match/feud and only for an opponent who's receptive to taking them. |
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Post by lucas_lee on Feb 4, 2019 11:39:39 GMT -5
Id rather take a chop than a back bump any day of the week
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Post by Fundertaker on Feb 4, 2019 12:20:57 GMT -5
As someone who is completely unfamiliar with WALTER, besides two compilation vidoes of the guy that I just looked up, I can't help but wonder: Since chopping people is something that got him over, what happens if/when someone doesn't want to take any of WALTER's chops because they're not comfortable with the move? How would that hinder a WALTER match if the guy couldn't pull out the move that has helped him butter his bread, so to speak? I lean more towards the idea that doing stuff in the ring that legitimately hurts is basically dumb, but I also recognize that chops are much more safer, relatively speaking, than other dumb things wrestlers have done in the decades professional wrestling has been a thing. That being said, chops themselves still break the logic of the working of a shoot that is professional wrestling when WALTER chops a guy, knocks him down, and doesn't try to immediately go for a pin-fall or submission. The same can be said for pretty much all moves in professional wrestling, however, so, your mileage may vary. WALTER is a really good worker, he doesn't need the stiff chops in every match to have really good performances. In fact, part of what could work brilliantly would be a match with a guy who doesn't want to take them, so they work out a story where the whole approach and story is that the opponent keeps dodging the strike, so either they throw WALTER off his game and beat him or WALTER adjusts and takes them apart in a different way. And it's been done as well. And no chops hit his opponent! WALTER's chops are his greeting card. What he is is a great wrestler. Anyone saying that he should stop doing what he does is doing a disservice to themselves as fan of professional wrestling. Especially in cookie cutter WWE-land. |
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