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Post by Feargus McReddit on Feb 6, 2019 3:24:26 GMT -5
I think possibly an even bigger problem than driving viewers away is... Can you even imagine WWE managing to attract new viewers at this point? Like, unless you're already well in the habit of watching the show, I have no idea what the appeal is supposed to be. Just picture as a first-time viewer tuning in to this sterile slog of a show where even the audience doesn't generally seem to care what's going on, they're constantly going on about the past and patting themselves on the back for both their history and the company's successes and charity work, and throwing random people out to wrestle for like 20 minutes without any real context as to who they are or why they're fighting. I'm not saying they should be constantly checking to make sure newcomers are up to speed - the constant recaps are themselves a HUGE part of what makes these shows such a slog - but there's nothing exciting here, nothing that would make someone new want to learn more about what's going on or maybe give a follow-up look the next week. I can't tell if you're describing WWE or current-day Marvel and DC comics. I mean, at least with Marvel and DC comics, other people can adapt them to make them hook new viewers. Unless they have hopes in Fighting for my Family to do that...?
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Post by King Devitt and the Woke Mob on Feb 6, 2019 3:28:00 GMT -5
I am so glad that Vince McMahon has to experience this.
He earned every bit of it.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Feb 6, 2019 3:32:18 GMT -5
"So and so (whether Rollins, the women in general, Becky, whoever) isn't a draw!" is a weird argument when the company itself made 'the brand' the one and only thing they're worried about as a draw years ago. No shit, X wrestler or wrestlers aren't drawing viewers in, the overall product is as stagnant as sewer water That’s the thing, nobody matters because the company doesn’t want anyone to matter because if people matter, people leave to do bigger and better things. Rock left, Batista left and now Cena’s on part time duty. It’s sort of insane because that stuff can get more people watching instead of what they did with Cena and kill his TV drawing ability but, again, they don’t need to do anything because they have the TV money regardless.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Feb 6, 2019 3:35:51 GMT -5
Got some bad news for WWE, there is no quick fix so throw whatever crap on the wall hoping it will stick all you want, but those ratings aren't recovering in time for your Fox move.
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Post by Banjo Is Broken on Feb 6, 2019 3:54:21 GMT -5
Time to put the title on Jeff Jarrett.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 6, 2019 4:21:12 GMT -5
literally everyone else is. The woman who's booking would make roman jealous. The woman who the board keeps saying is the biggest star in the company and worships every lame ass tweet and its still never enough. In fact here is the smackdown right after the rumble Big star right there I love ya dude, but you're trying to say Becky Lynch has Roman Reigns Jealous booking when you're one of the biggest fans of Alexa Bliss on this entire board, and like her or not, she is and has been built as one of the strongest and most protected women in this company with countless title reigns, and at her peak was the most talked about girl on this board both good and bad. This kinda stuff just feels incredibly petty, don't try and pick fights because you don't like someone, especially when it comes off hypocritical.
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Post by Big DSR Energy on Feb 6, 2019 4:49:42 GMT -5
"So and so (whether Rollins, the women in general, Becky, whoever) isn't a draw!" is a weird argument when the company itself made 'the brand' the one and only thing they're worried about as a draw years ago. No shit, X wrestler or wrestlers aren't drawing viewers in, the overall product is as stagnant as sewer water That’s the thing, nobody matters because the company doesn’t want anyone to matter because if people matter, people leave to do bigger and better things. Rock left, Batista left and now Cena’s on part time duty. It’s sort of insane because that stuff can get more people watching instead of what they did with Cena and kill his TV drawing ability but, again, they don’t need to do anything because they have the TV money regardless. Seriously. They could make as much money as they possibly can from somebody before they get "too big for wrestling" and bounce, and then use highlights or whatever to say "this is the place where stars are born" and maybe get people to check out the new blood that way. Nah. Let's just make sure everybody kinda sucks so they don't leave. That's the way to go.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Feb 6, 2019 4:52:18 GMT -5
This company could have 80s Hogan, 1998 Austin, and 2000 Rock all drop into their laps right now, and with the writing and product, it wouldn't matter at all. Everything is just so damn stale, that it doesn't matter who is pushed, because while that person's segments are good, the rest of the show is stale. It's no fault of the talent, it's the booking and presentation.
Turning Elias heel accomplishes nothing, turning Rusev heel accomplishes nothing, the only things those do is take 2 guys that fans like and make them villains for no reason at all. Angle vs Corbin continuing does nothing for the product, Braun being stuck in nothing feuds does nothing, Drew doing the same shit over and over again, does absolutely nothing.
The company needs a complete overhaul, they actually need to change shit, and not be afraid to run with who the fans like. I'm going to use Braun as an example, the guy was possibly the most popular guy for over a year, and they didn't give him the strap and run with it. They kept screwing him over. That doesn't buy goodwill with the fans, that only pisses them off, burns them out, and turns them off the product.
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spagett
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Post by spagett on Feb 6, 2019 4:57:40 GMT -5
Maybe portraying Smackdown as a brand full of losers that lost 6-0 at the Survivor Series PPV and then not following up on it whatsoever was a bad idea if you then want people to pay to watch Smackdown? No wonder they have to tarp off half the arena.
It's funny that it's only now Vince and Co seem to be worried about the ratings, this hasn't come out of nowhere. The ratings have been collapsing for the last few years but they just put their heads in the sand and ignored it and it's now at the point where it's going to take a lot of work and a lot of time to turn things around.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Feb 6, 2019 5:42:54 GMT -5
literally everyone else is. The woman who's booking would make roman jealous. The woman who the board keeps saying is the biggest star in the company and worships every lame ass tweet and its still never enough. In fact here is the smackdown right after the rumble Big star right there I love ya dude, but you're trying to say Becky Lynch has Roman Reigns Jealous booking when you're one of the biggest fans of Alexa Bliss on this entire board, and like her or not, she is and has been built as one of the strongest and most protected women in this company with countless title reigns, and at her peak was the most talked about girl on this board both good and bad. This kinda stuff just feels incredibly petty, don't try and pick fights because you don't like someone, especially when it comes off hypocritical. not just hypocrisy but embarassing himself by trying to use the hard cam as "evidence" of an empty show .
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Feb 6, 2019 5:54:08 GMT -5
WWE's bad writing has nothing to do with "today's culture" or being "afraid to offend", and every spark of really good heeling we've seen proves it. Ciampa has been gold all year, Orton spent a match jamming a screwdriver into a dude's ear, Elias has working a crowd that loves you and turning them molten down to a science. WWE's failings right now are a reflection of WWE, and using its corpse as your soapbox for broader societal issues just doesn't click with what their problems actually are. Vince McMahon is an insane crazy person but he's also a 70-something Republican. Look at the "Bobby Lashley's sisters" segment from last year and tell me social justice is the true ill of WWE right now. Yes there are a few heels that can pull it off, I'll grant you that. But the world is sanitary, everyone walking in egg shells. It has a negative effect on my opinion. You can't do anything controversial, you can't push people the way they used to. Now if you think that is but a problem great, II however do. Faces have nothing to work with because true will bastard heels are very very rare. There's nothing for the face to stand up for. You can't choke, you can't use a foreign object, shit heels rarely even cheat. I'll take the midst um political correct hell that got people pissed enough to damn near riot so the face had something to fight for over today's tip toe product. I may be in the minority and I'm fine with that .. That's what I see as a major problem. But it's not. Heels cheat. Bryan won the title off of AJ in a low blow. Before that, AJ's feuds included Nakamura's forearm hating his dick and Samoe Joe breaking into AJ's home and claiming he would take AJ's place in the lives of his wife and daughter. I can't think I've seen a single episode of anything where a heel didn't cheat. Foreign objects get used too. You're projecting a whle lot of weird social agenda shit onto a television show written by a man who thinks the peak of humour is putting cis men in dresses and half the observations don't even track with the product and what's happening in it. It's just bad writing dude, emerging from your cave to holler about how political corrtectness is making all media bad when there's so many more sensible answers just makes you look like a weirdo. Faces struggle because of the writing, heels are bland because of the writing. Everything is lazy and hastily rewritten, but nothing about wrestling requires anything that would be seen as "politically incorrect" to work. Stories of heroes against villains is not something idealogically destroyed by the concept of "don't use slurs" and every time you take it to that conclusion you look like a creepy goof.
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Post by Tenshigure on Feb 6, 2019 9:22:27 GMT -5
I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm going to just say it again for brevity: it is not nor will it ever be a talent issue that this company has. Ever since they've changed to this mentality of "shows don't matter, moments do," the ratings reward their lack of effort.
Have a segment that catches on for whatever viral reason? In 2019, here's what your options are in the WWE:
a) Repeat the same segment the following week(s) until the segment is unbearable (Woken Matt vs Bray Wyatt promos)
b) Replace the unpushed talent involved with a person YOU want to get over to try to prove anyone could have the same response (the part of Becky Lynch will be played by Charlotte Flair)
c) Completely go tone deaf on the positive feedback you're getting on social media because of your long-term plans and negate any goodwill the moment had by abruptly ending the parties involved (Rusev Day) or giving the talent completely unrelated out-of-character aspects (Dean Abrose post-heel turn)
The more logical steps are obviously to listen to this positive feedback and make moments like that matter with the overall product, but the ratings mean very little to them as long as the big bucks from the KSA and Fox keep rolling in.
The WWE is not putting the talent in a position to succeed when they continue to maintain a tight leash and refuse to allow any kind of organic storytelling to take place. Management continues to insult the audience's intelligence by treating them like children that "don't know what they really want, so we'll tell them what they want." Adding 'edge' by having Alexa Bliss appear in partial undress doesn't suddenly make it 'more adult' any more than a middle schooler stealing a wine cooler from their mom makes them mature.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Feb 6, 2019 9:32:08 GMT -5
I do think there is some truth to the idea that WWE is overly afraid to offend and that’s contributed to the overall blandness of their product the last decade or so. And I can understand why they feel this way. Culture has changed. Many of the things that made wrestling popular in the 80s and 90s would be heavily criticized by entertainment media and would be seen as unappealing by many fans if done today. Certainly from a violence and sexism standpoint, but also from a promo standpoint. I’m not even talking about using slurs or anything like that, but just the general edginess. Guys like Austin, Rock, Ric Flair and many many others got popular saying the things you weren’t supposed to say in polite society and that’s what made it so damn fun. But much of the content of those promos would be seen very poorly today and WWE would get hammered for it if they went back to that style. And WWE has fought long and hard to gain enough credibility to where they could even get a weekly primetime slot on a major network. They get covered favorably on ESPN, something that I never dreamed possible years ago. So I can understand why they might want to tread lightly, but as someone who fell in love with wrestling when it wasn’t afraid to take things over the edge, it’s frustrating and makes for one lame product.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Feb 6, 2019 10:21:29 GMT -5
I do think there is some truth to the idea that WWE is overly afraid to offend and that’s contributed to the overall blandness of their product the last decade or so. And I can understand why they feel this way. Culture has changed. Many of the things that made wrestling popular in the 80s and 90s would be heavily criticized by entertainment media and would be seen as unappealing by many fans if done today. Certainly from a violence and sexism standpoint, but also from a promo standpoint. I’m not even talking about using slurs or anything like that, but just the general edginess. Guys like Austin, Rock, Ric Flair and many many others got popular saying the things you weren’t supposed to say in polite society and that’s what made it so damn fun. But much of the content of those promos would be seen very poorly today and WWE would get hammered for it if they went back to that style. And WWE has fought long and hard to gain enough credibility to where they could even get a weekly primetime slot on a major network. They get covered favorably on ESPN, something that I never dreamed possible years ago. So I can understand why they might want to tread lightly, but as someone who fell in love with wrestling when it wasn’t afraid to take things over the edge, it’s frustrating and makes for one lame product.
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 6, 2019 11:44:35 GMT -5
I definitely agree that it's the "it's all about MOMENTS!" mentality. WWE is hardly a show anymore, it's a collection of entrance themes, promos done in the same cadence, a catchphrase or two, and then nothing until a finisher gets hit. They don't give people a reason to care about the rest, so why bother paying very close attention to it?
There's going to be an argument that WWE has to be "unpredictable" or whatever again; that's not entirely true, in my opinion. What WWE needs is a purpose, a reason to even exist, because right now if we go by the (lack of ) internal logic of their shows, they put on Raw and Smackdown with almost no matches in mind, and many of the matches they do have are utterly inconsequential. Everything on a show, particularly in pro wrestling, needs a purpose, but what's being accomplished by having, say, another Revival vs. Roode/Gable match on the middle of Raw? Is anybody getting over? Does it lead to anything? Will they wrestle their next match any differently, to reflect things that happened in their previous encounters? And let's say there's a Seth Rollins vs. Drew McIntyre match that ends with Drew getting DQ'd and assaulting Seth. That's fine, but is the beatdown accomplishing anything? Is he focusing on Seth's leg, setting up a story and a target for the next time they fight? Will either of their characters change or go through some kind of arc as a result of their rivalry? If not, then why are you doing it?
I've made this point before, but a lot of us who are into indy wrestling, puro, or lucha used to get a lot of grief from some WWE-centric fans in the old days, with accusations of "you only like <insert company here> because you like flippy stuff/stiff strikes/etc., you clearly don't appreciate storytelling or psychology!" Yet it's been WWE more than any other visible company that's made a practice of just having "wrestling for the sake of wrestling", matches that don't reward you for following closely, that don't involve character tics, don't evolve personalities, don't build on previous matches outside of a few exceptions, etc. They just want you to pop for the entrance and the finish, the rest is treated as unimportant.
Old school WWF at least felt like it had a purpose behind it: you'd go to Mean Gene for an interview, Sean Mooney in the event center, and every promo served to hype up matches and feuds and emphasized that the important thing was what would happen when these guys met in the ring. It felt like an actual show was being put on, and not just an assortment of talent being tossed out for no discernible reason to get fleeting reactions for matches and angles that don't really accomplish anything.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 11:52:27 GMT -5
I've made this point before, but a lot of us who are into indy wrestling, puro, or lucha used to get a lot of grief from some WWE-centric fans in the old days, with accusations of "you only like <insert company here> because you like flippy stuff/stiff strikes/etc., you clearly don't appreciate storytelling or psychology!" Yet it's been WWE more than any other visible company that's made a practice of just having "wrestling for the sake of wrestling", matches that don't reward you for following closely, that don't involve character tics, don't evolve personalities, don't build on previous matches outside of a few exceptions, etc. They just want you to pop for the entrance and the finish, the rest is treated as unimportant. Bingo. The actual wrestling, even on big events, is a total afterthought. Sure, the matches may go long and have lots of high spots but there's rarely any attempt at storytelling or psychology in those matches. It's all just mindless spectacle, polished and shined and refined until all sense of artistry and purpose is gone. The average modern WWE match - hell, modern WWE as a whole - feels like a giant toy commercial, and nothing more.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,722
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Post by thecrusherwi on Feb 6, 2019 11:53:40 GMT -5
I do think there is some truth to the idea that WWE is overly afraid to offend and that’s contributed to the overall blandness of their product the last decade or so. And I can understand why they feel this way. Culture has changed. Many of the things that made wrestling popular in the 80s and 90s would be heavily criticized by entertainment media and would be seen as unappealing by many fans if done today. Certainly from a violence and sexism standpoint, but also from a promo standpoint. I’m not even talking about using slurs or anything like that, but just the general edginess. Guys like Austin, Rock, Ric Flair and many many others got popular saying the things you weren’t supposed to say in polite society and that’s what made it so damn fun. But much of the content of those promos would be seen very poorly today and WWE would get hammered for it if they went back to that style. And WWE has fought long and hard to gain enough credibility to where they could even get a weekly primetime slot on a major network. They get covered favorably on ESPN, something that I never dreamed possible years ago. So I can understand why they might want to tread lightly, but as someone who fell in love with wrestling when it wasn’t afraid to take things over the edge, it’s frustrating and makes for one lame product. I’m not sure what this is supposed to mean.
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Post by KofiMania on Feb 6, 2019 12:03:57 GMT -5
Smackdown is churning out a very good show every week. 2 hours helps but I really think a huge issue with Raw is that they do not have enough star power or top tier fresh talent, especially on the heel side. The top heels of Raw are who? McIntyre, Corbin, Lashley? Meanwhile on Smackdown, the heels are stacked with Bryan, Joe, Orton, Almas.
Raw needs the Superstar Shakeup now or at least the returns of Zayn and Owens and a better NXT callup than EC3.
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Feb 6, 2019 12:10:44 GMT -5
Lol. WOR said that WWE's searching for answers as to why ratings are low and now the company's going to start taking a lot of risks now to appease tv partners and future revenue streams. Why don’t they just focus group people and literally just ask them why they don’t watch Raw anymore or why Raw sucks? And I mean an actual focus group of fans, not just Road Dogg, Johnny Ace, and Michael Hayes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 12:12:43 GMT -5
I wonder how many people are just like, "I'll just read the recap and watch what sounds good to me on YouTube." Might be more than I think.
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