Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,920
|
Post by Mozenrath on Feb 11, 2019 20:34:27 GMT -5
If I was going to compare Jay to someone, it'd be when Okada first won the title.
Not everyone was sold on him just yet. I remember threads about "What the f***, the Rainmaker is an awful finisher, why doesn't he just pin them with his tombstone piledriver?" or saying he was just so much of a downgrade from Tanahashi. I don't know that I could even wholly disagree, at least in so far as that Tanahashi was of course more of a complete package than the up and coming Okada. But he got seasoned, he got better, and Gedo's pushing of him became wholly justified.
I think Jay's a work in progress. He's hopefully an investment for the company, and I mean, being a Kiwi, he's a gaijin who doesn't really need to travel all that far to be on hand for NJPW anytime they need him, so he may as well be a local on that front, barring some BS with visas or something. I just hope he keeps his nose clean and doesn't blow his huge opportunity.
|
|
|
Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 20:41:51 GMT -5
I would disagree on him not being over Also as mentioned in this thread since day 1 they brought him back they have hyped him up big as the biggest prospect since Okada. He first 2-3 months were rough but once the summer came he hit his stride which lead to him losing the title to Juice and moving on to the feud with Okada
Gedo has made it no secret he sees him as a big deal and everyone knew once he beat Okada at WK and Tana won the belt that it was a strong chance White was on his way to winning it as well He's basically mirroring young Okada from having Gedo as a manager, being a cocky but good son of a bitch, and now beating Tana for the title His reign won't last past Dominion imo but everyone sees the writing on the wall
I didn’t say he wasn’t over, but there are def 5-10 acts more over than him. Let’s play Devil’s Advocate here. You say Gedo sees him as a big deal and was going to make him he top guy. Why does NJPW seeing a guy they want in that spot and making sure he gets there not get the backlash other companies get when doing that? As others have said, the past speaks for itself. But I will add another dynamic, they will admit failure as well. At one point Yujiro Takahashi had an IWGP title match against Tanahashi and he didn't live up to the push, he fell down the card to the point of no return. Naito was pushed too soon and won the G1, the fans crapped on it, leading to where Naito's character is today. So the difference is if it fails, they will adjust, they won't continue to shove it down your throat like WWE did with Reigns.
|
|
|
Post by Starshine on Feb 11, 2019 21:09:36 GMT -5
Hey guys, not to get too off topic. But whoever takes the belt from Jay White is going to be the 69th champion.
|
|
|
Post by AwamoriRock on Feb 11, 2019 21:17:26 GMT -5
Hey guys, not to get too off topic. But whoever takes the belt from Jay White is going to be the 69th champion. Taguchi making the jump to heavy confirmed.
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Feb 11, 2019 21:17:28 GMT -5
I'm floored by how some people aren't down with this; White's been absolutely killing it since his US title win last year, and the IWGP title scene was due for a new name to be added to the mix. Doesn't mean the guy needs to be your favorite, but he's more than proven he's got the chops to hang with any of the big guns, and yeah, as someone else who was at the Cow Palace this past summer he did it while drawing absolutely nuclear crowd heat.
And yeah, there's something to be said for Gedo earning a whole lot of benefit of the doubt. The Okada experiment is one of the biggest successes in all of modern wrestling, Styles and Nakamura were seamlessly replaced with Naito and Omega (most of the credit to the wrestlers, obviously, but the booking still counts for a lot), and the business side of the company is doing as well as it has in ages. Comparing this with bad and/or questionable WWE booking, where there's a very real downward trend in ratings, ticket sales, and audience engagement, is way off-base in my eyes.
I'm also interested in where this will eventually go. I figure Jay will get a bit of a run with the belt, but the trend is for a first reign to not be super lengthy, either. Will he get the retro Tanahashi treatment and have an angle where he drops the belt to a surprising challenger due to overconfidence? Or will he be the mega-heel that has to be dethroned by only the best, leading to Naito and Okada vying to be the ones to end his reign?
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,920
|
Post by Mozenrath on Feb 11, 2019 21:30:43 GMT -5
I'm floored by how some people aren't down with this; White's been absolutely killing it since his US title win last year, and the IWGP title scene was due for a new name to be added to the mix. Doesn't mean the guy needs to be your favorite, but he's more than proven he's got the chops to hang with any of the big guns, and yeah, as someone else who was at the Cow Palace this past summer he did it while drawing absolutely nuclear crowd heat. And yeah, there's something to be said for Gedo earning a whole lot of benefit of the doubt. The Okada experiment is one of the biggest successes in all of modern wrestling, Styles and Nakamura were seamlessly replaced with Naito and Omega (most of the credit to the wrestlers, obviously, but the booking still counts for a lot), and the business side of the company is doing as well as it has in ages. Comparing this with bad and/or questionable WWE booking, where there's a very real downward trend in ratings, ticket sales, and audience engagement, is way off-base in my eyes. I'm also interested in where this will eventually go. I figure Jay will get a bit of a run with the belt, but the trend is for a first reign to not be super lengthy, either. Will he get the retro Tanahashi treatment and have an angle where he drops the belt to a surprising challenger due to overconfidence? Or will he be the mega-heel that has to be dethroned by only the best, leading to Naito and Okada vying to be the ones to end his reign? Gedo's also been good about pivoting ideas when he needs to. Jay being moved to the Bullet Club helped mitigate how woefully underwhelming the "Firing Squad" was proving to be, increasing Jay's star power more than if he had tried to usurp CHAOS directly, and while Jericho was too frustratingly absent as IC champion, him and Naito had a great match, both by their own efforts and how the company framed it, so even Gedo's decisions a lot of us may not initially agree with tend to pay off in some way or get worked into a better thing.
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,423
|
Post by Dub H on Feb 11, 2019 21:33:50 GMT -5
Hey guys, not to get too off topic. But whoever takes the belt from Jay White is going to be the 69th champion.
|
|
|
Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Feb 11, 2019 21:40:46 GMT -5
Hey guys, not to get too off topic. But whoever takes the belt from Jay White is going to be the 69th champion. Taguchi making the jump to heavy confirmed. I know you're joking but I'd actually be okay with that...
|
|
|
Post by KofiMania on Feb 12, 2019 0:38:30 GMT -5
Jay White is IWGP Champion!?!? I guess NJPW needs their Jinder Mahal too You can't possibly compare the two to one another. That was the first name that popped in my head too. Although maybe Sheamus’s first World Title is a more apt comparison.
|
|
|
Post by Feargus McReddit on Feb 12, 2019 0:45:29 GMT -5
I mean, you can compare Sheamus, Jinder and JBL to Jay White, sure...
If you ignore that a) there’s a rich history of people being introduced slowly to Japanese crowds through the Young Lions system, b) if it wasn’t made abundantly clear he was getting a push last year from his return match being against Tanahashi and c) if, as people pointed out, they did the same thing with Okada and long term worked so well, NJPW is making their second major profitable year for the first time in literal decades (and sure, WCW had their biggest year after Starrcade 97 but they also don’t have a billion dollars and are spending it like a Recession’s about to hit).
|
|
|
Post by Doctor No on Feb 12, 2019 0:50:27 GMT -5
This development shows how much the Omega move effected them.
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Feb 12, 2019 1:05:02 GMT -5
This development shows how much the Omega move effected them. Does it? White was primed for a super push from the moment he returned in late 2017, this likely isn't some panic move.
|
|
|
Post by Final Countdown Jones on Feb 12, 2019 1:06:10 GMT -5
I mean, you can compare Sheamus, Jinder and JBL to Jay White, sure... If you ignore that a) there’s a rich history of people being introduced slowly to Japanese crowds through the Young Lions system, b) if it wasn’t made abundantly clear he was getting a push last year from his return match being against Tanahashi and c) if, as people pointed out, they did the same thing with Okada and long term worked so well, NJPW is making their second major profitable year for the first time in literal decades (and sure, WCW had their biggest year after the Fingerpoke but they also don’t have a billion dollars and are spending it like a Recession’s about to hit). Yeah, Jay White debuted in 2015, miss me with that weird shit acting like he's only been aorund for a year. The cycle of development and training for a rookie in New Japan under the dojo system is such a different beast to anything seen in top American promotions, trying to find comparisons to that career arc is inherently flawed. He didn't just show up and get a title, nor is this ascent to the main event something people didn't see coming given all of his major wins. Jinder skyrocketed from nowhere to the title, White has been built up over a year to this point and went into the title match already a made man.
|
|
|
Post by KofiMania on Feb 12, 2019 1:21:26 GMT -5
I mean, you can compare Sheamus, Jinder and JBL to Jay White, sure... If you ignore that a) there’s a rich history of people being introduced slowly to Japanese crowds through the Young Lions system, b) if it wasn’t made abundantly clear he was getting a push last year from his return match being against Tanahashi and c) if, as people pointed out, they did the same thing with Okada and long term worked so well, NJPW is making their second major profitable year for the first time in literal decades (and sure, WCW had their biggest year after the Fingerpoke but they also don’t have a billion dollars and are spending it like a Recession’s about to hit). Yeah, Jay White debuted in 2015, miss me with that weird shit acting like he's only been aorund for a year. The cycle of development and training for a rookie in New Japan under the dojo system is such a different beast to anything seen in top American promotions, trying to find comparisons to that career arc is inherently flawed. He didn't just show up and get a title, nor is this ascent to the main event something people didn't see coming given all of his major wins. Jinder skyrocketed from nowhere to the title, White has been built up over a year to this point and went into the title match already a made man. Obviously no two scenarios are exactly the same but that doesn’t mean they can’t be compared for specific reasons. For me it reminds me of Mahal in the sense that, to me, he is a midcard at best package and detracts from the prestige of the title in my mind. Totally subjective of course but that’s how it feels to me. And as someone who is not invested long term as a fan of NJPW, I’m much less likely to watch/follow with White on top than I was with Omega.
|
|
|
Post by Feargus McReddit on Feb 12, 2019 1:25:37 GMT -5
Yeah, Jay White debuted in 2015, miss me with that weird shit acting like he's only been aorund for a year. The cycle of development and training for a rookie in New Japan under the dojo system is such a different beast to anything seen in top American promotions, trying to find comparisons to that career arc is inherently flawed. He didn't just show up and get a title, nor is this ascent to the main event something people didn't see coming given all of his major wins. Jinder skyrocketed from nowhere to the title, White has been built up over a year to this point and went into the title match already a made man. Obviously no two scenarios are exactly the same but that doesn’t mean they can’t be compared for specific reasons. For me it reminds me of Mahal in the sense that, to me, he is a midcard at best package and detracts from the prestige of the title in my mind. Totally subjective of course but that’s how it feels to me. And as someone who is not invested long term as a fan of NJPW, I’m much less likely to watch/follow with White on top than I was with Omega. Sure, and as you said those are subjective things with watching and that’s fine, but again it doesn’t line up with how utterly different everything around it is. Comparing him to Jinder feels highly unfair in pretty much every other regard.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 1:33:22 GMT -5
I'd say a much better comparison is actually Seth Rollins. Guy pegged from day one with a lot of potential who had a very clear and present buildup where he gradually rose in prominence and had a perfect time for him to end up getting the belt that they ended up capitalizing on, despite it being debatable as to whether he's actually ready for it at that precise point in time.
Granted I can't see a scenario in which this is anywhere near as bad as Seth's title reign.
|
|
|
Post by KobashiChop on Feb 12, 2019 4:56:38 GMT -5
Jay's story is kind of amazing too Won tickets to WrestleMania 27, got him back into wrestling, moved to the other side of the world to train, got noticed + recommended by Devitt, went to NJPW with no knowledge of the company, + beats their biggest stars + becomes 4th youngest champ Friggen amazing ride. Hey can I have an honest discussion with no flaming. Just a question since you are in the majority of people I know that do this: You hated on Roman for years on this forum and you support this? This is literally the same thing. I really want to know, I didnt like Roman too but atleast I am not supporting this now. The fans reacted the right way to this. He is hated everywhere he goes. Roman was booked as a face for 4 years as a solo act and booed out of the building for a good chunk of that. Roman and White dont fit as a comparison. Naito is a better one and it took Naito leaving for a year with a new gimmick on return to change that. White has been booed as a heel pretty consistently. He is over, he has credibility. Wrestlers have obviously been pushed many times in history. It only becomes an issue when the fans aren't taking to it and there's no willingness to adapt.
|
|
MAGGLE
Dennis Stamp
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 4,511
|
Post by MAGGLE on Feb 12, 2019 5:28:16 GMT -5
Hey can I have an honest discussion with no flaming. Just a question since you are in the majority of people I know that do this: You hated on Roman for years on this forum and you support this? This is literally the same thing. I really want to know, I didnt like Roman too but atleast I am not supporting this now. The fans reacted the right way to this. He is hated everywhere he goes. Roman was booked as a face for 4 years as a solo act and booed out of the building for a good chunk of that. Roman and White dont fit as a comparison. Naito is a better one and it took Naito leaving for a year with a new gimmick on return to change that. White has been booed as a heel pretty consistently. He is over, he has credibility. Wrestlers have obviously been pushed many times in history. It only becomes an issue when the fans aren't taking to it and there's no willingness to adapt. I am honestly amazed by the answers and I was actually trying not to write anything because I wanted to stay out of this, but since the Charlotte hate is on this level in the other section, why not? But come on man. I can name you like 50 bad WWE guys that got booed out of the building and still sucked. Jinder sucked and he got booed (give him all the titles). Call me old school but a wrestler has to be good at SOMETHING to actually become world champ (changed with Jinder) , so how is this not a fair comparison. Also the Roman example is also very fitting, they are the darlings of Gedo and Vince...I mean how isnt this clear. He is a big fan that somehow got in, let him wear a NJPW shirt and I swear I wouldnt recognize him in the crowd. This isnt the most important thing but its certainly a factor right? Or are we just ignoring this? Because I would love to get into the business with 44 and win a world title, that would be neat. After all I really love wrestling so I clearly deserve to be the biggest wrestler in the world.
|
|
|
Post by KobashiChop on Feb 12, 2019 6:12:12 GMT -5
The fans reacted the right way to this. He is hated everywhere he goes. Roman was booked as a face for 4 years as a solo act and booed out of the building for a good chunk of that. Roman and White dont fit as a comparison. Naito is a better one and it took Naito leaving for a year with a new gimmick on return to change that. White has been booed as a heel pretty consistently. He is over, he has credibility. Wrestlers have obviously been pushed many times in history. It only becomes an issue when the fans aren't taking to it and there's no willingness to adapt. I am honestly amazed by the answers and I was actually trying not to write anything because I wanted to stay out of this, but since the Charlotte hate is on this level in the other section, why not? But come on man. I can name you like 50 bad WWE guys that got booed out of the building and still sucked. Jinder sucked and he got booed (give him all the titles). Call me old school but a wrestler has to be good at SOMETHING to actually become world champ (changed with Jinder) , so how is this not a fair comparison. Also the Roman example is also very fitting, they are the darlings of Gedo and Vince...I mean how isnt this clear. He is a big fan that somehow got in, let him wear a NJPW shirt and I swear I wouldnt recognize him in the crowd. This isnt the most important thing but its certainly a factor right? Or are we just ignoring this? Because I would love to get into the business with 44 and win a world title, that would be neat. After all I really love wrestling so I clearly deserve to be the biggest wrestler in the world. Charlotte has had multiple title wins. She has been the shoehorned face of a shoehorned "Women's R/Evolution" that involved her and Sasha cycling through a ton of gimmick matches with "FIRST EVER WIMMINZ TO DO IT" tagged on. They've ran her into the ground through no fault of her own. The Roman example doesnt work. You not liking Switchblade does not equate to Roman being rejected like a bad transplant. Again, this is booking. Roman was fed terrible lines, was trashed by Lesnar repeatedly, and was very obviously pushed as a Superman face to a crowd that didnt want to see it. It does not mean Roman sucks, it does not mean Roman cannot get over. It means they f***ed it up. NJPW book their "darlings" more effectively than the WWE do now. Austin, Rock, Hogan, Bruno, all "darlings". All megapushed. Having a heel as a top guy nowadays is a fine line because fans actually have to want to turn up and hate the guy. Which I feel has become a problem in American wrestling as people talk all the time of wrestlers having the wrong kind of heat which mostly equates to "I dont like him, so he isnt REALLY over" or then theyre heels that people like, who then get cheered and arent really effective heels as the babyface cant get cheered against them. This comes down to a long standing problem in WWE of heels never really getting their comeuppance. Which is essentially what heels are there to do. Theyre supposed to lose in the end. As for Jinder, we all know why they pushed him. And as soon as they realised he didnt move the needle in India? They dropped him. Hard. And for the old "wouldnt recognise them in street clothes" bit, I could run through a number of guys who look like regular guys in street clothes who are consistently over. The Undisputed Era are all massive in NXT, they all look like standard guys outside of the ring, except maybe Fish due to the beard.
|
|
MAGGLE
Dennis Stamp
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 4,511
|
Post by MAGGLE on Feb 12, 2019 6:36:03 GMT -5
I am honestly amazed by the answers and I was actually trying not to write anything because I wanted to stay out of this, but since the Charlotte hate is on this level in the other section, why not? But come on man. I can name you like 50 bad WWE guys that got booed out of the building and still sucked. Jinder sucked and he got booed (give him all the titles). Call me old school but a wrestler has to be good at SOMETHING to actually become world champ (changed with Jinder) , so how is this not a fair comparison. Also the Roman example is also very fitting, they are the darlings of Gedo and Vince...I mean how isnt this clear. He is a big fan that somehow got in, let him wear a NJPW shirt and I swear I wouldnt recognize him in the crowd. This isnt the most important thing but its certainly a factor right? Or are we just ignoring this? Because I would love to get into the business with 44 and win a world title, that would be neat. After all I really love wrestling so I clearly deserve to be the biggest wrestler in the world. Charlotte has had multiple title wins. She has been the shoehorned face of a shoehorned "Women's R/Evolution" that involved her and Sasha cycling through a ton of gimmick matches with "FIRST EVER WIMMINZ TO DO IT" tagged on. They've ran her into the ground through no fault of her own. The Roman example doesnt work. You not liking Switchblade does not equate to Roman being rejected like a bad transplant. Again, this is booking. Roman was fed terrible lines, was trashed by Lesnar repeatedly, and was very obviously pushed as a Superman face to a crowd that didnt want to see it. It does not mean Roman sucks, it does not mean Roman cannot get over. It means they f***ed it up. NJPW book their "darlings" more effectively than the WWE do now. Austin, Rock, Hogan, Bruno, all "darlings". All megapushed. Having a heel as a top guy nowadays is a fine line because fans actually have to want to turn up and hate the guy. Which I feel has become a problem in American wrestling as people talk all the time of wrestlers having the wrong kind of heat which mostly equates to "I dont like him, so he isnt REALLY over" or then theyre heels that people like, who then get cheered and arent really effective heels as the babyface cant get cheered against them. This comes down to a long standing problem in WWE of heels never really getting their comeuppance. Which is essentially what heels are there to do. Theyre supposed to lose in the end. As for Jinder, we all know why they pushed him. And as soon as they realised he didnt move the needle in India? And for the old "wouldnt recognise them in street clothes" bit, I could run through a number of guys who look like regular guys in street clothes who are consistently over. The Undisputed Era are all massive in NXT, they all look like standard guys outside of the ring, except maybe Fish due to the beard. I understand where you are coming from in this thread but I am actually not trying to hate on the guy. He is a giant fan and better him then some people ( on a personal level only). But he has nothing going for him. Please step out of this scenario, watch the finish of the match and please tell mem in all seriousness that if Nikki, Corbin etc did THAT in their biggest finish they wouldnt grt laughed at on this board. But the thing with the Undisputed Era is that first of all this needs to be made clear : they can actually wrestle...really good. Not in a way of "i am trying but it doesnt work". Other then that I agree with you, I would get very mad if they would just steamroll the entire company and I would hope that I am not the only one (except for Adam Cole, he is actually good at everything). So thats why I started this discussion. My opinion is that no one should be world champion until they are the complete package. The title is not a journey, its the destination. Everything other then that is lazy writing.
|
|