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Post by lavelleuk on Feb 12, 2019 6:58:56 GMT -5
I understand where you are coming from in this thread but I am actually not trying to hate on the guy. He is a giant fan and better him then some people ( on a personal level only). But he has nothing going for him. Please step out of this scenario, watch the finish of the match and please tell mem in all seriousness that if Nikki, Corbin etc did THAT in their biggest finish they wouldnt grt laughed at on this board What's the thing about the finish? Think a couple of people have mentioned that and I'm curious lol. I don't watch New Japan and never seen a jay white match, but googled the finish. Is it just the lame finisher?
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Post by KobashiChop on Feb 12, 2019 6:59:45 GMT -5
Charlotte has had multiple title wins. She has been the shoehorned face of a shoehorned "Women's R/Evolution" that involved her and Sasha cycling through a ton of gimmick matches with "FIRST EVER WIMMINZ TO DO IT" tagged on. They've ran her into the ground through no fault of her own. The Roman example doesnt work. You not liking Switchblade does not equate to Roman being rejected like a bad transplant. Again, this is booking. Roman was fed terrible lines, was trashed by Lesnar repeatedly, and was very obviously pushed as a Superman face to a crowd that didnt want to see it. It does not mean Roman sucks, it does not mean Roman cannot get over. It means they f***ed it up. NJPW book their "darlings" more effectively than the WWE do now. Austin, Rock, Hogan, Bruno, all "darlings". All megapushed. Having a heel as a top guy nowadays is a fine line because fans actually have to want to turn up and hate the guy. Which I feel has become a problem in American wrestling as people talk all the time of wrestlers having the wrong kind of heat which mostly equates to "I dont like him, so he isnt REALLY over" or then theyre heels that people like, who then get cheered and arent really effective heels as the babyface cant get cheered against them. This comes down to a long standing problem in WWE of heels never really getting their comeuppance. Which is essentially what heels are there to do. Theyre supposed to lose in the end. As for Jinder, we all know why they pushed him. And as soon as they realised he didnt move the needle in India? And for the old "wouldnt recognise them in street clothes" bit, I could run through a number of guys who look like regular guys in street clothes who are consistently over. The Undisputed Era are all massive in NXT, they all look like standard guys outside of the ring, except maybe Fish due to the beard. I understand where you are coming from in this thread but I am actually not trying to hate on the guy. He is a giant fan and better him then some people ( on a personal level only). But he has nothing going for him. Please step out of this scenario, watch the finish of the match and please tell mem in all seriousness that if Nikki, Corbin etc did THAT in their biggest finish they wouldnt grt laughed at on this board. But the thing with the Undisputed Era is that first of all this needs to be made clear : they can actually wrestle...really good. Not in a way of "i am trying but it doesnt work". Other then that I agree with you, I would get very mad if they would just steamroll the entire company and I would hope that I am not the only one (except for Adam Cole, he is actually good at everything). So thats why I started this discussion. My opinion is that no one should be world champion until they are the complete package. The title is not a journey, its the destination. Everything other then that is lazy writing. What specifically? When he catches Tana and sets up the Blade Runner? I have no problem with that, it didnt look well choreographed, it looked like he caught him and wrestled him into setting up the finisher. I dont need everything to look seamlessly choreographed, it adds a tint of realism for them to colour outside the lines. Cena vs Punk MITB 2011 is a heralded classic and that got sloppy at points, because its a simulated fight, not everything has to be Ricochet vs Ospreay. And yeah the Era are good wrestlers. But that was not my argument. My argument was a counterpoint to you saying White looks like a nobody outside of the ring, and I was using them as an example of many guys in wrestling who look like nobodies outside of the ring. Guys dont need to be 5 star technicians or best bout machines in order to be good wrestlers. It's about their ability to draw a response from the crowd in their situation. Some are thrown in with a brick tied to their ankles by their booking (Naito/Roman). However, Jay White right now is despised by everyone and people are watching him. We're waiting to see who is going to kick the shit out of him. Remember how gratifying Suzuki decimating him in the G1 felt? And not every World Champion in history has been the complete package. If attendance and revenue plummet, then we'll see. And nothing about it is lazy, its actually pretty ambitious to put the belt on to a guy in White's position, especially from Tanahashi. Lazy booking is just paying The Elite to show up at your show and having them be the central focus of everything.
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Post by KobashiChop on Feb 12, 2019 7:02:04 GMT -5
I understand where you are coming from in this thread but I am actually not trying to hate on the guy. He is a giant fan and better him then some people ( on a personal level only). But he has nothing going for him. Please step out of this scenario, watch the finish of the match and please tell mem in all seriousness that if Nikki, Corbin etc did THAT in their biggest finish they wouldnt grt laughed at on this board What's the thing about the finish? Think a couple of people have mentioned that and I'm curious lol. I don't watch New Japan and never seen a jay white match, but googled the finish. Is it just the lame finisher? Theres a bit of a struggle when White catches him rather than a seamless switch to the finisher. I think because companies like PWG have so much in the way of reversal/reversal/reversal/crowd applauding spots, this has become an expectation to have everything look like it was practised 100 times.
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 12, 2019 7:35:24 GMT -5
Charlotte has had multiple title wins. She has been the shoehorned face of a shoehorned "Women's R/Evolution" that involved her and Sasha cycling through a ton of gimmick matches with "FIRST EVER WIMMINZ TO DO IT" tagged on. They've ran her into the ground through no fault of her own. The Roman example doesnt work. You not liking Switchblade does not equate to Roman being rejected like a bad transplant. Again, this is booking. Roman was fed terrible lines, was trashed by Lesnar repeatedly, and was very obviously pushed as a Superman face to a crowd that didnt want to see it. It does not mean Roman sucks, it does not mean Roman cannot get over. It means they f***ed it up. NJPW book their "darlings" more effectively than the WWE do now. Austin, Rock, Hogan, Bruno, all "darlings". All megapushed. Having a heel as a top guy nowadays is a fine line because fans actually have to want to turn up and hate the guy. Which I feel has become a problem in American wrestling as people talk all the time of wrestlers having the wrong kind of heat which mostly equates to "I dont like him, so he isnt REALLY over" or then theyre heels that people like, who then get cheered and arent really effective heels as the babyface cant get cheered against them. This comes down to a long standing problem in WWE of heels never really getting their comeuppance. Which is essentially what heels are there to do. Theyre supposed to lose in the end. As for Jinder, we all know why they pushed him. And as soon as they realised he didnt move the needle in India? And for the old "wouldnt recognise them in street clothes" bit, I could run through a number of guys who look like regular guys in street clothes who are consistently over. The Undisputed Era are all massive in NXT, they all look like standard guys outside of the ring, except maybe Fish due to the beard. I understand where you are coming from in this thread but I am actually not trying to hate on the guy. He is a giant fan and better him then some people ( on a personal level only). But he has nothing going for him. Please step out of this scenario, watch the finish of the match and please tell mem in all seriousness that if Nikki, Corbin etc did THAT in their biggest finish they wouldnt grt laughed at on this board. But the thing with the Undisputed Era is that first of all this needs to be made clear : they can actually wrestle...really good. Not in a way of "i am trying but it doesnt work". Other then that I agree with you, I would get very mad if they would just steamroll the entire company and I would hope that I am not the only one (except for Adam Cole, he is actually good at everything). So thats why I started this discussion. My opinion is that no one should be world champion until they are the complete package. The title is not a journey, its the destination. Everything other then that is lazy writing. I don't know, man, you're allowed to like or dislike any performer you want to, obviously, but I really don't know what you're arguing here. White's cut as hell, has a pretty distinctive look, has already wrestled a ton of excellent matches in the company, draws huge heat, can talk, etc. Doesn't mean you have to like the particular way he does any of those things, but the guy's really good at what he does, and only 26. As for what "the title should be", in the end there's truth to the idea that the belt is a prop; it's meant to work in whatever arc or storyline you want it to. Okada won the belt in a shocker in 2012; it's arguable that he "wasn't ready" then, but it put him on the map and helped tell the story of a young, cocky up and comer who was naturally gifted going against the fighting spirit-driven ace in Tanahashi. Clearly, there's a different story to be told right now, though White will certainly play the role of the egotistical upstart.
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MAGGLE
Dennis Stamp
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Post by MAGGLE on Feb 12, 2019 7:43:17 GMT -5
I understand where you are coming from in this thread but I am actually not trying to hate on the guy. He is a giant fan and better him then some people ( on a personal level only). But he has nothing going for him. Please step out of this scenario, watch the finish of the match and please tell mem in all seriousness that if Nikki, Corbin etc did THAT in their biggest finish they wouldnt grt laughed at on this board. But the thing with the Undisputed Era is that first of all this needs to be made clear : they can actually wrestle...really good. Not in a way of "i am trying but it doesnt work". Other then that I agree with you, I would get very mad if they would just steamroll the entire company and I would hope that I am not the only one (except for Adam Cole, he is actually good at everything). So thats why I started this discussion. My opinion is that no one should be world champion until they are the complete package. The title is not a journey, its the destination. Everything other then that is lazy writing. I don't know, man, you're allowed to like or dislike any performer you want to, obviously, but I really don't know what you're arguing here. White's cut as hell, has a pretty distinctive look, has already wrestled a ton of excellent matches in the company, draws huge heat, can talk, etc. Doesn't mean you have to like the particular way he does any of those things, but the guy's really good at what he does, and only 26. As for what "the title should be", in the end there's truth to the idea that the belt is a prop; it's meant to work in whatever arc or storyline you want it to. Okada won the belt in a shocker in 2012; it's arguable that he "wasn't ready" then, but it put him on the map and helped tell the story of a young, cocky up and comer who was naturally gifted going against the fighting spirit-driven ace in Tanahashi. Clearly, there's a different story to be told right now, though White will certainly play the role of the egotistical upstart. Well and if you all like it thats super fine. I tried to understand but now we pretty much all just look crazier to the other person since nothing was gained. I am not saying I like or dislike him. I am saying that he is really untalented compared to the entire roster, hell push Rocky Romero he can atleast talk and he wrestles on the same level as White. We agree that we dont agree on this guy at all. I think I just watched NJPW because of the Elite and a couple of guys like Okada. Because the booking is insane. I dont think I agreed with a single decision since Dominion where Kenny won the title. Maybe its just time for a break.
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Post by corndog on Feb 12, 2019 14:57:55 GMT -5
I don't know, man, you're allowed to like or dislike any performer you want to, obviously, but I really don't know what you're arguing here. White's cut as hell, has a pretty distinctive look, has already wrestled a ton of excellent matches in the company, draws huge heat, can talk, etc. Doesn't mean you have to like the particular way he does any of those things, but the guy's really good at what he does, and only 26. As for what "the title should be", in the end there's truth to the idea that the belt is a prop; it's meant to work in whatever arc or storyline you want it to. Okada won the belt in a shocker in 2012; it's arguable that he "wasn't ready" then, but it put him on the map and helped tell the story of a young, cocky up and comer who was naturally gifted going against the fighting spirit-driven ace in Tanahashi. Clearly, there's a different story to be told right now, though White will certainly play the role of the egotistical upstart. Well and if you all like it thats super fine. I tried to understand but now we pretty much all just look crazier to the other person since nothing was gained. I am not saying I like or dislike him. I am saying that he is really untalented compared to the entire roster, hell push Rocky Romero he can atleast talk and he wrestles on the same level as White. We agree that we dont agree on this guy at all. I think I just watched NJPW because of the Elite and a couple of guys like Okada. Because the booking is insane. I dont think I agreed with a single decision since Dominion where Kenny won the title. Maybe its just time for a break. If you don't like him, that is fine and actually the point. But to say he is untalented is pretty ridiculous. He's a smart wrestler, stuff like constantly getting out of position for Slingblade looked sloppy, because we are so used to wrestler looking rehearsed and people being in the right place for certain moves, but he actually did it on purpose to avoid the moves. Also, he purposely didn't get into striking battles with Tanahashi because that would be to Tanahashi's advantage, but these are things we expect and often want to see in matches. Basically, unlike Omega, he isn't trying to break the Meltzer scale by having aesthetically pleasing matches, he's working matches that are based on his character and story. He knew he couldn't out wrestle or out will Tanahashi, but he could outsmart him. The fact that the guy puts his own twist on most of the moves he does, proves he isn't "untalented", he just doesn't fit the model we expect for a top star in New Japan, a work horse, but he is incredibly innovative and the most original wrestler in the ring I have seen in a long time.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Feb 12, 2019 15:15:09 GMT -5
Is he still doing that cornball "Breathe with the Switchblade" stuff? Because....if so, yeah, I can see MSG ticket buyers having SERIOUS buyers remorse to see that goober main event a card that was sold on Okada and The Elite.
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 12, 2019 15:47:26 GMT -5
Is he still doing that cornball "Breathe with the Switchblade" stuff? Because....if so, yeah, I can see MSG ticket buyers having SERIOUS buyers remorse to see that goober main event a card that was sold on Okada and The Elite. That's his catchphrase, so...yeah? I'm really curious how many people actually watched his US title matches or G1 run, because I'm not seeing where some of you guys are coming from, like, at all.
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Post by corndog on Feb 12, 2019 15:50:56 GMT -5
Is he still doing that cornball "Breathe with the Switchblade" stuff? Because....if so, yeah, I can see MSG ticket buyers having SERIOUS buyers remorse to see that goober main event a card that was sold on Okada and The Elite. Okada, Naito and Tanahashi were the only wrestlers named in advance to be there. Expecting the Elite was somewhat foolish considering they were known to be out of contract for this show and even then many thought there was a chance they would be gone.
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Post by corndog on Feb 12, 2019 16:02:15 GMT -5
Is he still doing that cornball "Breathe with the Switchblade" stuff? Because....if so, yeah, I can see MSG ticket buyers having SERIOUS buyers remorse to see that goober main event a card that was sold on Okada and The Elite. That's his catchphrase, so...yeah? I'm really curious how many people actually watched his US title matches or G1 run, because I'm not seeing where some of you guys are coming from, like, at all.I would understand the outrage if this happened at the same time last year, as White clearly wasn't ready. But he has progressed immensely. Most of the outrage seems to be from part-time/Elite fans. Full time New Japan fans saw the story progress and really this win, while somewhat surprising, shouldn't be a complete surprise. In fact if White lost, it would actually feel like the win over Okada at WK and his prior buildup would have been wasted. However, what I don't understand is the outrage. There wasn't this outrage when Kenny took over Bullet Club from AJ, while Kenny was a Junior and had a very silly character. People gave Kenny a chance. Also, what did they expect? Kenny to keep the belt even though he would be out of contract for the next defense!? It's not like New Japan screwed the Elite, they just got a very good opportunity and they took it. I don't blame them for leaving and Kenny even has it in his contract that he is allowed to work New Japan when he wants and can. So we will most likely see Kenny return. But as a part timer, you just can't put the belt on him and they needed someone to fill the spot.
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Post by shadaaaaap on Feb 12, 2019 16:13:07 GMT -5
I like it, Jay White is something different and is very effective in that role. The match was very good and I liked his promo and press conference afterward too, dude comes off as such a shitbag heel. Also the finish looked fine to me, I didn't really notice anything 'off' about it, he caught him and then transitioned to the Blade Runner. I also liked how Tana was actually pivoting in the air to hit the move rather than the 'flying nothing'. It'll be interesting to see where they go from here anyway.
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Post by Starshine on Feb 12, 2019 16:31:32 GMT -5
I still just can't get past the thought of New Japan fans getting upset over a shock title win when following an extended excursion this guy became their world champion one month later following this match.
Is it just a lack of awareness?
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Post by darbus alan on Feb 12, 2019 16:33:40 GMT -5
I really like the move. White's been an excellent heel ever since the Bullet Club fully divorced from the Elite. And I think his in-ring psychology is underrated if anything. The dude isn't going to be putting on 5 Star classics that make Meltzer cream himself, but he's a smart worker who plays really well to his strengths.
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 12, 2019 16:46:05 GMT -5
I still just can't get past the thought of New Japan fans getting upset over a shock title win when following an extended excursion this guy became their world champion one month later following this match. Is it just a lack of awareness? To be fair, most western NJPW fans weren't watching back when the Rainmaker Shock went down; hell, if we don't count long-time puro fans in the States and focus on the folks who have only come to watch during the Okada/Tana/Bullet Club era, I know I'd be counted as a relatively "long-term" viewer, and I only got into watching it back in 2015, and only started watching regularly (as in, subscribing to NJPW World) in 2016. So yeah, there may just be a lack of familiarity, since many fans in this cohort basically only know Okada as champion with brief interludes for other guys. But yeah, I also agree with the assessment that this really shouldn't have been that much of a shock; White's build has been steady and constant since his return from excursion, so while it may feel a bit early for him it's still not exactly stunning, either.
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Post by KofiMania on Feb 12, 2019 16:48:12 GMT -5
Is he still doing that cornball "Breathe with the Switchblade" stuff? Because....if so, yeah, I can see MSG ticket buyers having SERIOUS buyers remorse to see that goober main event a card that was sold on Okada and The Elite. That's his catchphrase, so...yeah? I'm really curious how many people actually watched his US title matches or G1 run, because I'm not seeing where some of you guys are coming from, like, at all.I’m just not seeing a great wrestler with great presence who is ready for the spot he’s in. Seems a lot of others (although not most) are in agreement.
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Post by KofiMania on Feb 12, 2019 16:49:40 GMT -5
I still just can't get past the thought of New Japan fans getting upset over a shock title win when following an extended excursion this guy became their world champion one month later following this match. Is it just a lack of awareness? Most American-based fans of New Japan weren’t watching back then. They have expanded greatly the last few years with Styles-Omega-Jericho.
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Post by darbus alan on Feb 12, 2019 16:53:54 GMT -5
Also the comparisons to Jinder are just uh, yeah. Not right lol. White wasn't a career jobber who was suddenly pushed into a main eventer out of nowhere to try and draw in some up-and-coming foreign market (hell, NJPW has had gaijin IWGP champs since Vader in the late 80's). He had a steady build to where he is now. And is also very young.
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Post by Starshine on Feb 12, 2019 17:05:28 GMT -5
I still just can't get past the thought of New Japan fans getting upset over a shock title win when following an extended excursion this guy became their world champion one month later following this match. Is it just a lack of awareness? Most American-based fans of New Japan weren’t watching back then. They have expanded greatly the last few years with Styles-Omega-Jericho. Okay, but that's not NJPW's fault. I just don't know how anyone could look at this garbage match and say Okada was more ready than White was for a top spot. It's not like this is some small insignificant part of their history either. This one decision basically rebuilt their entire business model for the following 7 years running up to now. Considering it worked so well before, there's not really any reason to believe it can't again.
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Post by KofiMania on Feb 12, 2019 17:20:48 GMT -5
Most American-based fans of New Japan weren’t watching back then. They have expanded greatly the last few years with Styles-Omega-Jericho. Okay, but that's not NJPW's fault. I just don't know how anyone could look at this garbage match and say Okada was more ready than White was for a top spot. It's not like this is some small insignificant part of their history either. This one decision basically rebuilt their entire business model for the following 7 years running up to now. Considering it worked so well before, there's not really any reason to believe it can't again. What does it “not being NJPW’s fault” have to do with people not being interested in White as their top champion? Just because something worked before with a different wrestler doesn’t mean I will be entertained by this particular wrestler.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Feb 12, 2019 17:29:50 GMT -5
I’m not saying they’re the same or anything but it’s easy to forget that Okada winning was looked at as lame too. Although I’m not sure what my point is given that I’m not exactly in the “Gedo is long term master booker” camp either lol.
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