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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 10, 2019 12:04:15 GMT -5
The pipebomb angle worked for Punk because every single thing he said and did (pre HHH) was in kayfabe. FANS decided to take that and run with it. Wellllllllll come on now. Let's not pretend they weren't playing the worked shoot card. He was very clever to phrase it all within kayfabe, but they literally had the mic pretend to get cut off because he 'went too far.' Now, there's obviously a huge difference between "they won't push me even though I'm a great wrestler" and "wrestling is fake." But both presume the audience is smarts, and both are pretend-shoots in the sense that someone's come out and airing backstage dirty laundry.
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Mar 10, 2019 12:08:23 GMT -5
The pipebomb angle worked for Punk because every single thing he said and did (pre HHH) was in kayfabe. FANS decided to take that and run with it. Wellllllllll come on now. Let's not pretend they weren't playing the worked shoot card. He was very clever to phrase it all within kayfabe, but they literally had the mic pretend to get cut off because he 'went too far.' Now, there's obviously a huge difference between "they won't push me even though I'm a great wrestler" and "wrestling is fake." But both presume the audience is smarts, and both are pretend-shoots in the sense that someone's come out and airing backstage dirty laundry. But when Punk cut the pipebomb, he didn’t get cut off because he said “wrestling is fake”, he got cut off by saying WWE would be better off with Vince McMahon dying and calling him a bully.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 10, 2019 12:18:30 GMT -5
Wellllllllll come on now. Let's not pretend they weren't playing the worked shoot card. He was very clever to phrase it all within kayfabe, but they literally had the mic pretend to get cut off because he 'went too far.' Now, there's obviously a huge difference between "they won't push me even though I'm a great wrestler" and "wrestling is fake." But both presume the audience is smarts, and both are pretend-shoots in the sense that someone's come out and airing backstage dirty laundry. But when Punk cut the pipebomb, he didn’t get cut off because he said “wrestling is fake”, he got cut off by saying WWE would be better off with Vince McMahon dying and calling him a bully. It also wasn’t using stuff that wasn’t in the kayfabe already. It had been established Steph and HHH were together again and Steph was running part of the company, Vince gives people he likes opportunities (the entire McMahon/Austin rivalry was built off that) and other stuff that was readily established on TV for years.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 12:24:49 GMT -5
I agree that it's a mess WWE got themselves into. I don't blame fans for getting this wrapped up in it, I totally get why people get caught up in twitter beefs and the like; I'd be lying if I said I don't click on threads when they come up around here that someone did something goofy on Twitter. But just because WWE touts that their social media and television are a cohesive unit doesn't necessarily make it so. That's why it strikes me as odd that people who see a good promo online and says "why aren't they putting this on TV?" will also look at this Ronda promo and say "this things off the rails!" I just don't see what happens on TV versus Twitter as even the same category of entertainment. I'll concede the point though, it's just not my world. I don't think we're gonna find a common ground there. To your other point though, there's a huge difference between Ronda's level of "fineness" and someone like Baron Corbin. I really think your observation about Ronda's failure to look at the right camera and all those ornery Vince McMahon TV cues are something only hardcores are going to notice (I can't say I've ever even picked up on that). I think Ronda's doing "fine" in terms of she should have been slaughtered by fans from day one, she came into this as an outside star, she was plunked into a Wrestlemania match on her first day on the job, she retired in shame from the UFC and was pretty much a meme. She had a lot working against her that I was pretty surprised that she got over as a face. Baron Corbin is technically good at his job, he does what he's asked and memorizes his lines, but a thread on this board about the notion of Corbin even wrestling at Wrestlemania, let alone main eventing, is something people can't handle. People wanted Becky Lynch versus Ronda Rousey to main event, to the point that they don't want Charlotte involved, who is a 100% exceptional WWE performer. So I feel I might even be selling her short to say she's just doing fine. Psycho Sid was technically not a great wrestler, his offense was bad, his promos were odd, but he had a star presence. I don't know how you can argue that someone that people want in a Wrestlemania main event is somehow doing bad. You can't even say it's more about Becky than it is about Ronda, because if you replaced her with Charlotte, people would be disappointed. It's not a hardcore notice when you hear someone screaming at Ronda while she's on camera. You can even go back and watch the clip where she turned heel a few days ago and as she's on the turnbuckle someone loudly was screaming at her 3 times to hold up the title. You might not have heard it but to me when I hear that? I think "wow she can't even do something that simple" and yet I don't really see that with others. It also goes back to what I said about the chants during that post-Sasha feud promo. There's just certain things she's not doing or certain things she does that makes me think "well ok, I see where this is going" so when Charlotte was added I wasn't surprised, it's clockwork. The big difference here is when you say Ronda's doing fine you're talking about her being a star, her being apart of the company and her being a name for a company. When I say Ronda isn't doing fine I'm not talking about that. Yeah she's a star, yeah she has presence and yeah she can go in the ring but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about her promos, the small things such as her remembering certain things when it comes to feuds, her coordination with the fans, not letting anything get to her when she's got a job to do, basically everything that isn't involving her name being "Ronda Rousey", the things that bring it all together which every superstar is equal in. At the end of the day those are the things that are more of a hindrance to her than anything else. This company will push someone to the top if they're not a star if they can get those other things down. If you can't get those things, it doesn't matter if you're a star because they matter more in a long run, you'll be considered a problem. Corbin of all people, for as boring as he is, isn't a star but what he does have over Ronda is the ability to adjust to the crowd, he knows his promos, he knows his As and Bs, he's better at that sort of thing compared to what she's doing.
Ronda "not being fine" doesn't have a thing to do with her being a star and being a name. It has to do with what she's learned in the company that all these superstars themselves learn that aren't connected to their names, popular they are and what they brought to the table prior to learning about the company.
You're saying that you don't know how someone people want in the main event of Wrestlemania can be doing bad. I'm saying that it doesn't have a thing to do with what the fans want, it has to do with everything involving the lead up to the match to the presentation during and after the match for the feud itself. The fans can want a bucket of Popeye's chicken to main event a Wrestlemania and unless that bucket can cut a promo without the crowd getting on them, unless they know the small things Ronda isn't doing right, unless they know how to keep themselves composed and such in the face of adversity then yeah they gotta get someone else in there to help that bucket out because it's not cutting it.
It's bigger than the "ok, this guy is a star so they can't do anything wrong because people like them" aspect that you're referring to.
I'll agree to disagree there too. To me, people wanting to see her main event WrestleMania trumps whatever technical faults she has in her game, because the other stuff obviously didn't seem to bother anyone enough to change their mind. Next year might be a different story but that's not my problem. As a fan watching this stuff I really don't blame a performer for not hitting all the camera cues because I think that stuff is so convoluted anyways, and for all her flaws I at least like that she has a different vibe to her from other performers. Talks different, wrestles different, she's really passionate, I'm not really grading her like I am an Olympic judge, her matches are top notch and she's unique so I'm good with her being around.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 10, 2019 12:37:29 GMT -5
But when Punk cut the pipebomb, he didn’t get cut off because he said “wrestling is fake”, he got cut off by saying WWE would be better off with Vince McMahon dying and calling him a bully. It also wasn’t using stuff that wasn’t in the kayfabe already. It had been established Steph and HHH were together again and Steph was running part of the company, Vince gives people he likes opportunities (the entire McMahon/Austin rivalry was built off that) and other stuff that was readily established on TV for years. Breaking kayfabe and a worked shoot aren't the same thing.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 10, 2019 12:41:17 GMT -5
It also wasn’t using stuff that wasn’t in the kayfabe already. It had been established Steph and HHH were together again and Steph was running part of the company, Vince gives people he likes opportunities (the entire McMahon/Austin rivalry was built off that) and other stuff that was readily established on TV for years. Breaking kayfabe and a worked shoot aren't the same thing. No, but you’re implying the stuff he said was something that insiders or the dirtsheet snoopers would only know. If anything, it was more for the people who paid attention to the show for the past decade before then. Like, of course Steph’s taking over after Vince dies because Steph’s tried to several times, for example. The only thing “shocking” in his promo was mentioning Ring of Honor and New Japan Pro Wrestling but even then the latter hadn’t been mentioned on WWE TV for YEARS, but it was still “in canon”.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 10, 2019 12:50:59 GMT -5
Breaking kayfabe and a worked shoot aren't the same thing. No, but you’re implying the stuff he said was something that insiders or the dirtsheet snoopers would only know. If anything, it was more for the people who paid attention to the show for the past decade before then. Like, of course Steph’s taking over after Vince dies because Steph’s tried to several times, for example. The only thing “shocking” in his promo was mentioning Ring of Honor and New Japan Pro Wrestling but even then the latter hadn’t been mentioned on WWE TV for YEARS, but it was still “in canon”. Well, that's the point, right? You no longer have to read the dirtsheets to know and care about who's getting pushed and who's not. CM Punk was pretty explicitly out there saying, "I don't get the card positioning I want because I'm a vanilla midget and not an office favorite like Cena." I certainly hope no one thought he was doing a real shoot. But the energy and power of the promo was "oh yeah, he's talking about REAL THINGS, like who's getting a push and who's not!" Yeah, both are in kayfabe. But the backstage politics stuff is "realer" than the in-ring stuff, and you can't pretend it's not. That particular pandora's box has been open a long time.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 10, 2019 13:04:20 GMT -5
No, but you’re implying the stuff he said was something that insiders or the dirtsheet snoopers would only know. If anything, it was more for the people who paid attention to the show for the past decade before then. Like, of course Steph’s taking over after Vince dies because Steph’s tried to several times, for example. The only thing “shocking” in his promo was mentioning Ring of Honor and New Japan Pro Wrestling but even then the latter hadn’t been mentioned on WWE TV for YEARS, but it was still “in canon”. Well, that's the point, right? You no longer have to read the dirtsheets to know and care about who's getting pushed and who's not. CM Punk was pretty explicitly out there saying, "I don't get the card positioning I want because I'm a vanilla midget and not an office favorite like Cena." I certainly hope no one thought he was doing a real shoot. But the energy and power of the promo was "oh yeah, he's talking about REAL THINGS, like who's getting a push and who's not!" Yeah, both are in kayfabe. But the backstage politics stuff is "realer" than the in-ring stuff, and you can't pretend it's not. That particular pandora's box has been open a long time. Again, the bolded was the entirety of the Austin/McMahon feud. Austin was the fan favorite but Vince didn’t want him because he wasn’t the guy he wanted. Vince tried to have him on side and it didn’t work so Vince wanted to crush him. And sure, some of it was because it HAD to be done after the Screwjob but they made it at least fit into the canon instead of scrapping it.
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Post by darbus alan on Mar 10, 2019 13:10:34 GMT -5
When it comes to the worked shoot, CM Punk's pipe bomb is really the exception to the rule and that's because Punk is a master at promos. He knew just how far was too far in breaking suspension of disbelief, went right up to that line, but didn't cross it.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Mar 10, 2019 13:20:58 GMT -5
Well, that's the point, right? You no longer have to read the dirtsheets to know and care about who's getting pushed and who's not. CM Punk was pretty explicitly out there saying, "I don't get the card positioning I want because I'm a vanilla midget and not an office favorite like Cena." I certainly hope no one thought he was doing a real shoot. But the energy and power of the promo was "oh yeah, he's talking about REAL THINGS, like who's getting a push and who's not!" Yeah, both are in kayfabe. But the backstage politics stuff is "realer" than the in-ring stuff, and you can't pretend it's not. That particular pandora's box has been open a long time. Again, the bolded was the entirety of the Austin/McMahon feud. Austin was the fan favorite but Vince didn’t want him because he wasn’t the guy he wanted. Vince tried to have him on side and it didn’t work so Vince wanted to crush him. And sure, some of it was because it HAD to be done after the Screwjob but they made it at least fit into the canon instead of scrapping it. Yeah as I said recently... Punks entire point was that Vince wasn't giving Punk a chance to be the guy because John Cena is the corporate clean cut type. That fits 100% in what has been established in Kayfabe... and it wasn't I'm not getting a push or being told that this is all fake... it's Vince is not giving me the opportunity to because Punk is a counter culture type guy that's not great for corporate image like Austin..
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Post by Kalmia on Mar 10, 2019 13:29:34 GMT -5
Wrestling, like everything, needs internal logic. It's either all fake (and acknowledged as such) or you stick to kayfabe and it's all real. Mixing and matching doesn't work.
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Post by Brian Suntan on Mar 10, 2019 13:34:42 GMT -5
Everyone knew what Punk was talking about, and it was entirely based on him voicing the opinions of internet fans. There were just as many people on here at the time that believed he was shooting as think Rousey is having some form of breakdown.
You may be able to break it down and have it fit kayfabe, but it doesn't matter because nobody was looking at it that way.
Basically, that was a great promo and a great angle, and it still would've been even if Punk dropped a few more insider terms than he did.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 13:38:20 GMT -5
No medium of storytelling should ever ever tell its audience what they are reading, watching etc is fake.
Because the purpose of storytelling is to get you invested in the story trying to be told...but there is no story here to be told anymore because we as the audience have been told none of it matters because it is fake and it is meaningless to buy into this fake narrative because it is fake.
And that is unfortunate most for Becky because for as over as she is there is no longer an emotional investment in her journey...yea she is gonna win at WM and ok but I just do not care like I did a few months ago because WWE has completely removed any and all emotional narrative from Becky's journey all because they have to let everyone know that this shit is fake.
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Post by darbus alan on Mar 10, 2019 13:47:13 GMT -5
Darth Vader: "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father."
Luke: "He told me enough! He told me you killed him!"
Darth Vader: "No, I[/i] am your father!"
Luke: "That's not true! That's impossible! Because you're just an actor in a suit following the script!"
Darth Vader: "Huh?"
Luke: "f*** you James Earl Jones. f*** you David Prowse! And f*** you Star Wars fans!"
George Lucas: "This works, let's go with it."
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 10, 2019 14:17:34 GMT -5
Darth Vader: "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father." Luke: "He told me enough! He told me you killed him!" Darth Vader: "No, I am your father!" Luke: "That's not true! That's impossible! Because you're just an actor in a suit following the script!" Darth Vader: "Huh?" Luke: "f*** you James Earl Jones. f*** you David Prowse! And f*** you Star Wars fans!" George Lucas: "This works, let's go with it." It's like poetry, it rhymes.
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Mar 10, 2019 14:23:43 GMT -5
Thanos: You... should’ve gone for the head.
/He snaps his fingers and everyone begins to turn to dust/
Thor: No! f*** you Josh Brolin. f*** you Anthony and Joe Russo! f*** you Kevin Feige! And f*** the Marvel Cinematic Universe for this plot twist!
Russo Brothers: This... is gold.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 15:48:17 GMT -5
I wonder what Jericho's referring to. Man Jericho is really lucky that he is so good when he’s onscreen because off-screen he’s really f****** annoying
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 15:57:07 GMT -5
Ronda doubling down,
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Post by Brian Suntan on Mar 10, 2019 16:20:34 GMT -5
People keep comparing it to movies... but there are plenty of movies where people break the fourth wall, films within films, films where actors play themselves making a film etc.
Ronda and Becky feuding to the point Ronda snaps and breaks character, shits on the WWE and threatens to legit hurt her opponent is a story. You can argue it's a shit one... but it is a story.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 16:32:05 GMT -5
People keep comparing it to movies... but there are plenty of movies where people break the fourth wall, films within films, films where actors play themselves making a film etc. Ronda and Becky feuding to the point Ronda snaps and breaks character, shits on the WWE and threatens to legit hurt her opponent is a story. You can argue it's a shit one... but it is a story. It's just a bummer because like I said, it could've been a great angle without them reminding us constantly it's all fake. Ronda turns heel, goes off on the fans and says she's tired of them rooting for the Ginger Douche over her when she's out there busting her ass defending her title against different opponents and winning every night while Becky sits at home on Twitter making fun of her and people eat it up. She's done playing nice, she's going to destroy Becky and Charlotte and then leave with the championship and her undefeated streak.
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