Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,162
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Aug 30, 2019 5:24:15 GMT -5
Everybody involved (except Ross, I guess, but I wouldn't necessarily count him as "involved", so much) can go away now.
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Aug 30, 2019 6:18:53 GMT -5
My suggested videos tab on a YouTube video I watched yesterday was suddenly dotted with some "DEEP ANALYSIS(!)" reaction videos taking Jared's side.
Naturally, I haven't watched a single ProJared video on YouTube, but algorithm gonna algorithm.
Think I'll just echo what's been said by some already in here: it seems clear to me that a lot of people who find success on a platform like YouTube or via streaming or whatever at a young age are not ready to be in the public spotlight, and this often, though obviously not always, seems amplified when we're talking about people who get big via hobbies and interests traditionally considered "geeky" or whatever - you go through your early life feeling like you're not part of the "in crowd" because you like games/comics/whatever, now you're a minor celebrity, but you're not socially mature enough yet to handle what comes with that. Makes me glad that my girlfriend mostly enjoys streaming video game channels like Vinesauce and Game Grumps, given that most of the people involved with those feel much more well adjusted and produce little to no drama.
I guess I wish there was a bigger conversation about these things going on in certain communities. Let's get it straight, it's not like people who get internet famous for more "in crowd" interests don't fall into these same situations sometimes, I'm sure tons of them do, but it just feels like there's a different type of toxicity involved in the realm of "geekdom" or whatever you want to call it. I don't have any research in front of me right now, but I think the root of a lot of it is people feeling like they don't have larger social structures to be a part of so much anymore in wider society (a noticeable trend in western social sciences is the marked decline of people being involved in social groups and large scale work or community organizations), leading to people attaching way too much of their personal identities to a brand or, in the case of YouTubers, to a media personality. Thus, when there's drama involving said personalities, people turn it into a warzone where they 'stan' for their chosen figure and create a noxious atmosphere to be around, and that's a scary thought.
|
|
|
Post by BorneAgain on Aug 30, 2019 7:49:37 GMT -5
Honestly outside of Ross, this whole situation reeks of a lot self involved and short sighted people who've had their worst tendencies exacerbated by the online space; doubly so when it becomes an internet fight for strangers to then pick sides on.
|
|
|
Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Aug 30, 2019 9:57:20 GMT -5
I can see your point to an extent but at the same time, personal accountability is a thing. When someone makes an effort to check and the other is going out of their way to repeatedly lie, I would argue that the lie is in fact the liar's responsibility. Plus, as Jared points out, it's absurdly easy to fake a scan of an ID card, so if they wanted to lie, they could have easily Photoshopped it, so there's little to no value in this. And I'm no expert on US law so I may well be wrong on this, but isn't recording other people's identification documents illegal? Even if it's not, it certainly is creepy. And of course, there's the fact that Jared isn't a cop; I don't think anyone ought to be expected to perform a thorough background check on everyone they meet, or even know how to do so. If making one swear on their honour is good enough for porn sites (which are actual businesses with all sorts of legal obligations), I argue it's good enough for private discussions. All of which is fine, except that the person is legally a child, and therefore cannot take responsibility for all of this. That is the entire point of the law. And porn sites should be more stringent too. I don't know what the law says about it but I'd argue that from a moral point of view, they are indeed responsible for lying about their age (assuming Jared's claims are true, of course). My point being, if someone has done everything they can within their limited means to respect both the law and decency, you can't accuse them of being careless, especially when they were intentionally and actively mislead them. And you certainly can't claim that someone knew you were underage and didn't bother to check when you know very well that's not true.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Neglia on Aug 30, 2019 10:48:14 GMT -5
All of which is fine, except that the person is legally a child, and therefore cannot take responsibility for all of this. That is the entire point of the law. And porn sites should be more stringent too. I don't know what the law says about it but I'd argue that from a moral point of view, they are indeed responsible for lying about their age (assuming Jared's claims are true, of course). My point being, if someone has done everything they can within their limited means to respect both the law and decency, you can't accuse them of being careless, especially when they were intentionally and actively mislead them. And you certainly can't claim that someone knew you were underage and didn't bother to check when you know very well that's not true. Law says they are not, unless tried as an adult. Period.
|
|
|
Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Aug 30, 2019 11:26:11 GMT -5
Honestly outside of Ross, this whole situation reeks of a lot self involved and short sighted people who've had their worst tendencies exacerbated by the online space; doubly so when it becomes an internet fight for strangers to then pick sides on. Couldn't have said it any better myself.
|
|
|
ProJared
Aug 30, 2019 15:39:30 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Sir Woodrow on Aug 30, 2019 15:39:30 GMT -5
Meanwhile there are people at Channel Awesome saying "Thank you ProJared"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
ProJared
Aug 30, 2019 15:47:27 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 15:47:27 GMT -5
Meanwhile there are people at Channel Awesome saying "Thank you ProJared" Because why wouldn't they.
|
|
lionheart21
Patti Mayonnaise
Once did a thing...
Posts: 30,566
|
Post by lionheart21 on Aug 30, 2019 16:51:21 GMT -5
Meanwhile there are people at Channel Awesome saying "Thank you ProJared"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 16:54:34 GMT -5
Meanwhile there are people at Channel Awesome saying "Thank you ProJared" Marquis De Sade fans I assume.
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,878
Member is Online
|
ProJared
Aug 30, 2019 17:05:58 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Dub H on Aug 30, 2019 17:05:58 GMT -5
I don't know what the law says about it but I'd argue that from a moral point of view, they are indeed responsible for lying about their age (assuming Jared's claims are true, of course). My point being, if someone has done everything they can within their limited means to respect both the law and decency, you can't accuse them of being careless, especially when they were intentionally and actively mislead them. And you certainly can't claim that someone knew you were underage and didn't bother to check when you know very well that's not true. Law says they are not, unless tried as an adult. Period. My legal knowledge comos mostly from shows and youube but if im not mistaken some states allow a " good reason/ faith" defense " if you of course have proper evidence " i thought "or" she said" would never cut it.I am also not sure of a simple "Yez" counts towards it. In some othera there are no buts. It is illegal no matter if she had an ID.
|
|
Welfare Willis
Crow T. Robot
Pornomancer 555-BONE FDIC Bonsured
Game Center CX Kacho on!
Posts: 44,259
|
Post by Welfare Willis on Aug 30, 2019 18:51:25 GMT -5
Law says they are not, unless tried as an adult. Period. My legal knowledge comos mostly from shows and youube but if im not mistaken some states allow a " good reason/ faith" defense " if you of course have proper evidence " i thought "or" she said" would never cut it.I am also not sure of a simple "Yez" counts towards it. In some othera there are no buts. It is illegal no matter if she had an ID. The whole argument seems moot to me though. Projared is/was a retro game reviewer. Under no circumstances should he be soliciting for nude photos. I don't care if the dude was checking ids like it was Fort Knox. There's plenty of porn on the internet. Which leads me to believe the dude was grooming fans for sex. Which hey, consenting adults (at least they should be adults Projared) and all, but using his fame for that is gross. It's not like it doesn't happen with real celebrities either.
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,878
Member is Online
|
Post by Dub H on Aug 30, 2019 18:56:56 GMT -5
My legal knowledge comos mostly from shows and youube but if im not mistaken some states allow a " good reason/ faith" defense " if you of course have proper evidence " i thought "or" she said" would never cut it.I am also not sure of a simple "Yez" counts towards it. In some othera there are no buts. It is illegal no matter if she had an ID. The whole argument seems moot to me though. Projared is/was a retro game reviewer. Under no circumstances should he be soliciting for nude photos. I don't care if the dude was checking ids like it was Fort Knox. There's plenty of porn on the internet. Which leads me to believe the dude was grooming fans for sex. Which hey, consenting adults (at least they should be adults Projared) and all, but using his fame for that is gross. It's not like it doesn't happen with real celebrities either. I don't disagree with that. Just commentating on law stuff.I'm not even sure where the conversation was going.
|
|
Welfare Willis
Crow T. Robot
Pornomancer 555-BONE FDIC Bonsured
Game Center CX Kacho on!
Posts: 44,259
|
Post by Welfare Willis on Aug 30, 2019 19:05:48 GMT -5
The whole argument seems moot to me though. Projared is/was a retro game reviewer. Under no circumstances should he be soliciting for nude photos. I don't care if the dude was checking ids like it was Fort Knox. There's plenty of porn on the internet. Which leads me to believe the dude was grooming fans for sex. Which hey, consenting adults (at least they should be adults Projared) and all, but using his fame for that is gross. It's not like it doesn't happen with real celebrities either. I don't disagree with that. Just commentating on law stuff.I'm not even sure where the conversation was going. No worries, mate. Some people want to claim "Projared's innocent!" but from my point of view the guy was in a failing marriage and hooked up with the wife from another failing marriage all the while he used his power as a youtube celebrity to trade nude photos with his fans at a secret side site. Eventually hoping to have sex with certain fans. I'm not even getting to the underage stuff. He may be "innocent", but the guy is still a creep. He should be playing Bubble Bobble not trying to check out people's bubbles or bobbles.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Neglia on Aug 30, 2019 19:56:33 GMT -5
All of which is fine, except that the person is legally a child, and therefore cannot take responsibility for all of this. That is the entire point of the law. And porn sites should be more stringent too. I don't know what the law says about it but I'd argue that from a moral point of view, they are indeed responsible for lying about their age (assuming Jared's claims are true, of course). My point being, if someone has done everything they can within their limited means to respect both the law and decency, you can't accuse them of being careless, especially when they were intentionally and actively mislead them. And you certainly can't claim that someone knew you were underage and didn't bother to check when you know very well that's not true. I didn't have a chance to respond fully earlier, so here it is. You're saying from a MORAL standpoint, underage children are at fault for getting into these situations with grown adults? Dude, I love ya man, but seriously? I mean...Seriously? The ONLY people - THE ONLY PEOPLE - in the wrong in these situations are the grown ass adults. This is so f***ing close to the "well she was asking for it wearing that" crap. This is so f***ing disturbing on so many levels. I most certainly CAN accuse of them being careless. If you have "limited means" of knowledge on something like that, YOU. DO. NOT. TAKE. THE. CHANCE. Period.
|
|
|
Post by IgnahtaSempria on Aug 31, 2019 1:04:01 GMT -5
Man, going on Twitter, pretty much every defense of Jared is "Did you watch the video? Because if you watched the video, he's clearly innocent."
"Yeah, I watched it. There's still some stuff I don't quite agree with-"
"Okay, but did you watch the video?"
"...yeah, I just said I did. There's still a couple holes in his-"
"DID YOU WATCH THE VIDEO?!"
That's pretty much the only argument they have. ProJared said it in a video, so it must be true. So, for the sake of argument, I watched the video.
First of all, some of his presentation looked disingenuous to me. The dark lighting, the five o'clock shadow, the measured "performing voice" he uses in a few spots in the video, just all came across as him trying to put on a specific face to make you feel sorry for him.
In regards to his "receipts", I'll give him this: he definitely proved the one minor had lied to him about their age, and that he did not explicitly solicit them for nudes or send them back. As previously discussed by other posters, that does not entirely absolve him of his actions, but I'm not entirely qualified to speak on the legality of it, so I'll just leave that there.
However, most of his other "receipts" consist of him saying "I don't remember this, that's not something I'd do." Which is not a "receipt"; his argument is that because he can't remember it happening, and that they don't have proof, that he must be innocent. But by his own logic, he can't actually verify that he wasn't involved in those situations. Plus, you still have commentary from other sources like PushingUpRoses who tell very similar stories. Plus, a number of his arguments against his accusers, such as Chai (existing mental illness making them hallucinate the events in question) and Pamela Horton (a similar incident happening to her, but not involving him), are just pure conjecture on his part being passed off as facts.
(Also, quick sidebar, one of his arguments for the minors lying is for financial gain, because they were artists and they had links and ads for their Patreons and commission rates pinned on their Twitter and Tumblr timelines. You know who else does that? Literally every other artist on social media. It's how they let people know that they're available for commission. He even admits that those posts were from before the allegations came out, and uses that as proof the whole thing was premeditated. Or, y'know, those have nothing to do with the allegations.)
Then we get back to the cheating allegations, which he handily sidesteps by saying that he did not cheat (despite Heidi having messages showing that she had explicitly told both Jared and Holly that she wasn't okay with their relationship), he has messages from a therapist talking about Heidi being unstable (which, let's be honest, that could be anyone), texts proving his innocence (which are blurred for "legal reasons", meaning we can't actually see what they say), and that Ross knew about him and Holly and all the stuff going on between him, Holly and Heidi. How... convenient that the only person who can supposedly verify Jared's statements is the only person involved who has actively chosen not to say anything. Plus, as has been brought up, the fact that this video came out the exact same day that Heidi went to DragonCon, an event that she was very publicly excited about, which has resulted in Jared's hardcore fans attacking her at a time where she can't readily respond, makes this look like a calculated move, similar to his appearance.
The biggest argument from the pro-Jared and Holly side that I keep seeing is "don't let the internet mob tell you what to think, just watch the videos and you'll see that Jared and Holly are telling the truth. Innocent until proven guilty. Don't believe everything you read. You should hear out the victims before making a judgment." However, that argument falls apart, because for Jared and Holly to be telling the truth, that means Heidi is lying about everything, and suddenly the argument for "hearing both sides" goes out the window. Jared brings up videos defending him, particularly a video by bernie.txt that Jared and Holly's supporters keep pointing to as proof of Jared's side, even being retweeted by Holly herself. I watched that video, because I saw it in Justin Whang's Twitter feed. And honestly? There's really nothing in there that other videos don't cover, and it's basically just "here's everything you know, but assuming Jared's in the right." And to me, it's not as unbiased as it claims to be, because 1. it takes into account Holly's accusations against Heidi, but not Heidi's rebuttal to said accusations, and 2. bernie.txt says in the video that Holly's testimony is likely spotty at best, but the entire argument of the video is presented as Holly's point of view being 100% fact, despite admitting doubt literally minutes prior. That video does exactly what it accuses other videos of doing; omitting parts of the story and emphasizing others to spin a narrative.
tl;dr Jared disproved the whole knowingly sending nudes to minors thing, but everything else is still conjecture and, in the words of Fred Durst, "he-said she-said bullshit".
|
|
|
Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Aug 31, 2019 5:19:58 GMT -5
I don't know what the law says about it but I'd argue that from a moral point of view, they are indeed responsible for lying about their age (assuming Jared's claims are true, of course). My point being, if someone has done everything they can within their limited means to respect both the law and decency, you can't accuse them of being careless, especially when they were intentionally and actively mislead them. And you certainly can't claim that someone knew you were underage and didn't bother to check when you know very well that's not true. I didn't have a chance to respond fully earlier, so here it is. You're saying from a MORAL standpoint, underage children are at fault for getting into these situations with grown adults? Dude, I love ya man, but seriously? I mean...Seriously? The ONLY people - THE ONLY PEOPLE - in the wrong in these situations are the grown ass adults. This is so f***ing close to the "well she was asking for it wearing that" crap. This is so f***ing disturbing on so many levels. I most certainly CAN accuse of them being careless. If you have "limited means" of knowledge on something like that, YOU. DO. NOT. TAKE. THE. CHANCE. Period. Alright, first, I really don't appreciate these accusations or the "if you don't blindly agree with me then you're DEFENDING PEDOPHILES!!!" moral blackmail. But anyway, no, I'm not saying children are at fault for being targetted by predators, and I will thank you to never EVER make such nauseating implications again, and stick to what I actually said, not whatever speech YOU are putting in my mouth so you can step on me as a soapbox and immediately shut down any kind of discussion. What I am saying is, assuming what ProJared is saying is true and there's no weird twist to the screenshots he showed or anything like that, then there's quite a difference between what actually happened and the "predator has been grooming victims for months or years" claims that have been made about him. And no, that's not me saying the kids had it coming or are more responsible than the adults. Just because I'm trying to hear one side doesn't mean I'm condemning the other. And I'm not even saying ProJared wasn't being an idiot or didn't have some very unhealthy ideas of fan interactions. Like you said, if you don't know for sure, don't risk it. And frankly, I find this idea of exchanging nudes with fans dumb to begin with. Alright, so I'll admit I was wrong in saying he wasn't being careless. However, what I'm trying to say is, he had no way of knowing they were underage so I find calling him a predator dishonest. Yes, he's still an idiot because he also had no way of knowing they weren't underage other than their word, and I do not believe for a second in his paranoid-sounding theories about how they were out to get him and they have something to sell. I think it's far more likely they thought it was a great opportunity to get closer to someone they admired, then eventually realized how wrong the situation was, panicked and probably genuinely felt like they were being used, regardless of what actually happened. And I'm not saying that feeling should be dismissed either. In short, I'm trying to say I'm not comfortable at all with people on the Internet constantly trying to oversimplify things and to turn some people into caricatural villains like, say, by accusing someone of being a rape apologist for saying that an admittedly very disturbing mistake isn't the same thing as outright preying on children. And no, me saying Jared isn't a caricatural villain doesn't mean I'm saying the people accusing him are. That's my point: sometimes stories just don't have a villain.
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave on Aug 31, 2019 7:58:19 GMT -5
Pamela Horton has responded to that section of the video.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Neglia on Aug 31, 2019 10:58:04 GMT -5
I didn't have a chance to respond fully earlier, so here it is. You're saying from a MORAL standpoint, underage children are at fault for getting into these situations with grown adults? Dude, I love ya man, but seriously? I mean...Seriously? The ONLY people - THE ONLY PEOPLE - in the wrong in these situations are the grown ass adults. This is so f***ing close to the "well she was asking for it wearing that" crap. This is so f***ing disturbing on so many levels. I most certainly CAN accuse of them being careless. If you have "limited means" of knowledge on something like that, YOU. DO. NOT. TAKE. THE. CHANCE. Period. Alright, first, I really don't appreciate these accusations or the "if you don't blindly agree with me then you're DEFENDING PEDOPHILES!!!" moral blackmail. Dude, that's exactly what you did. Sorry, but you did. When you put the blame on the kids, that's what you're doing. And that's what you did.
|
|
67 more
King Koopa
He's just a Sexy Kurt
Posts: 11,511
|
ProJared
Aug 31, 2019 11:54:57 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by 67 more on Aug 31, 2019 11:54:57 GMT -5
Alright, first, I really don't appreciate these accusations or the "if you don't blindly agree with me then you're DEFENDING PEDOPHILES!!!" moral blackmail. Dude, that's exactly what you did. Sorry, but you did. When you put the blame on the kids, that's what you're doing. And that's what you did. That is a way too black-and-white outlook where everyone involved here has been dishonest. Should the conversation take place? No. Is it OK that Jared had this convo with what in the US is an underage participant? No. Does this convo take place without the initial deception? No. That's not paedo defending. That's looking at every step so you can gauge how serious this is.
|
|