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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Aug 31, 2019 15:13:43 GMT -5
Alright, first, I really don't appreciate these accusations or the "if you don't blindly agree with me then you're DEFENDING PEDOPHILES!!!" moral blackmail. Dude, that's exactly what you did. Sorry, but you did. When you put the blame on the kids, that's what you're doing. And that's what you did. No, no I did not. And considering how many times you've been on the receiving end of ludicrous comparisons, I would have thought you of all people would know better than to be so casual with this kind of abhorrent knee-jerk accusations. It's the kind of shit you would have insta-banned other people for saying about you and frankly, I wouldn't have blamed you for it. If you had bothered to actually read what I wrote, you would have realized that all I said is that they, not Jared, are responsible for what they said. That is literally it. I didn't deny that Jared's attitude was at best uncouth, I didn't say or even imply that any feeling of being abused the kids may have had was unjustified, and I certainly didn't make any kind of blanket statement claiming that if kids say they're of age then all bets are off. That is YOU putting words in my mouth, and I do not tolerate that. I just tried to put things into perspective because I feel like the situation is more complex than "Predator grooms children," but I guess your response shows us how you feel about perspective and complex discourse, huh? You've already decided you've got it all figured out and it's a very simple "evil monster vs the populace" kind of story, and anyone who doesn't echo your own opinions is evil and supports the monstrous attitude. This is honestly the most disgusting thing I've ever seen in these forums. I genuinely want to puke. If you had any shred of self-awareness, I would have expected you to at least grant me that maybe, just maybe accusing me of supporting paedophilia was a bit much. But no, you have to go and double-down on it in the most condescending way possible because apparently, insulting and humiliating me publicly isn't enough. I'm not a f'ing toy for you to play with and make me say whatever you want. Between this and the threads I've recently seen you close with nothing more than what amounted to "No, you're wrong and that's the end of that," you're starting to paint a very disturbing portrait of the future of these forums. Where do people like you get off wagging your finger at people like that when you yourself act in such a despicable manner?
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Post by Joe Neglia on Aug 31, 2019 20:48:14 GMT -5
I didn't have a chance to respond fully earlier, so here it is. You're saying from a MORAL standpoint, underage children are at fault for getting into these situations with grown adults? Dude, I love ya man, but seriously? I mean...Seriously? The ONLY people - THE ONLY PEOPLE - in the wrong in these situations are the grown ass adults. This is so f***ing close to the "well she was asking for it wearing that" crap. This is so f***ing disturbing on so many levels. I most certainly CAN accuse of them being careless. If you have "limited means" of knowledge on something like that, YOU. DO. NOT. TAKE. THE. CHANCE. Period. Alright, first, I really don't appreciate these accusations or the "if you don't blindly agree with me then you're DEFENDING PEDOPHILES!!!" moral blackmail. But anyway, no, I'm not saying children are at fault for being targetted by predators, and I will thank you to never EVER make such nauseating implications again, and stick to what I actually said, not whatever speech YOU are putting in my mouth so you can step on me as a soapbox and immediately shut down any kind of discussion. What I am saying is, assuming what ProJared is saying is true and there's no weird twist to the screenshots he showed or anything like that, then there's quite a difference between what actually happened and the "predator has been grooming victims for months or years" claims that have been made about him. And no, that's not me saying the kids had it coming or are more responsible than the adults. Just because I'm trying to hear one side doesn't mean I'm condemning the other. And I'm not even saying ProJared wasn't being an idiot or didn't have some very unhealthy ideas of fan interactions. Like you said, if you don't know for sure, don't risk it. And frankly, I find this idea of exchanging nudes with fans dumb to begin with. Alright, so I'll admit I was wrong in saying he wasn't being careless. However, what I'm trying to say is, he had no way of knowing they were underage so I find calling him a predator dishonest. Yes, he's still an idiot because he also had no way of knowing they weren't underage other than their word, and I do not believe for a second in his paranoid-sounding theories about how they were out to get him and they have something to sell. I think it's far more likely they thought it was a great opportunity to get closer to someone they admired, then eventually realized how wrong the situation was, panicked and probably genuinely felt like they were being used, regardless of what actually happened. And I'm not saying that feeling should be dismissed either. In short, I'm trying to say I'm not comfortable at all with people on the Internet constantly trying to oversimplify things and to turn some people into caricatural villains like, say, by accusing someone of being a rape apologist for saying that an admittedly very disturbing mistake isn't the same thing as outright preying on children. And no, me saying Jared isn't a caricatural villain doesn't mean I'm saying the people accusing him are. That's my point: sometimes stories just don't have a villain. You need to read what you said again. I don't know what the law says about it but I'd argue that from a moral point of view, they are indeed responsible for lying about their age (assuming Jared's claims are true, of course). My point being, if someone has done everything they can within their limited means to respect both the law and decency, you can't accuse them of being careless, especially when they were intentionally and actively mislead them. And you certainly can't claim that someone knew you were underage and didn't bother to check when you know very well that's not true. This part? - I'd argue that from a moral point of view, they are indeed responsible for lying about their age Does not mesh with Because those two? They are exact opposites. You can't tell me that the kid is responsible for it, but not at fault for it; not on something like this. I'm not accusing you of anything other than being part of a cultural climate we've created over time that instinctively brings forth that mindset. I do find it disturbing that something like that is still so embedded into our social thinking that even regular, normal people give that rationale in these situations. I do not find it "disgusting" that you have that mindset; I find it disturbing, only because I know you well enough from the years on here to know that this is diametrically opposed to everything else about you that I know. I don't give two shits about Jared as a person, but if he did anything that involved a minor - IF he did - That is entirely on him. No one else. Him alone. There is no "well, the kid lied." Kids lie. That's one of many, many reasons society considers them kids. In these situations, it's very much black and white, and the line dividing them is the 18th birthday. If Jared - or anyone - was involved with minors, that is on Jared and Jared alone. There is no excuse. Zero. If he didn't do anything, he didn't do anything. There is no grey area here for me, sorry. If I'm being an asshole on this subject, that's ten years' worth of being a victim coming out.
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Sept 1, 2019 5:18:06 GMT -5
This part? - I'd argue that from a moral point of view, they are indeed responsible for lying about their age Does not mesh with Because those two? They are exact opposites. You can't tell me that the kid is responsible for it, but not at fault for it; not on something like this. Here's the thing, though: words mean things. Me saying they're at fault for lying is not, in fact, the same as saying they're at fault for getting into trouble. If you're incapable of understanding that distinction, that your problem, not mine, and I will not stand there while you insult me and try to assassinate my character. Unless you're saying Jared has mind-control powers, I don't see how he could have had any influence on what they told him. And once again, that's not to say Jared isn't responsible for everything else. Or are you arguing that responsibility is a switch that flips once you reach 18 and you suddenly go form having no idea what you're doing to suddenly having a complete understanding of everything? And again, I'm not arguing they fully realized the implications of lying about their age, as a lot of teens think they're ready for sexual relations. But I do believe that they realized that they were indeed lying. And that's literally all I said and it's all I meant, so stop putting words in my mouth. There is no ambiguity to what I wrote and you trying to fabricate one does not change that. Basically, I said X, you claim I said Y, and then you try to tell me that X and Y are actually the same thing. And you accuse me of being pro-pedo in the process. There's two things I find especially morally repugnant, to the point I find them near-impossible to forgive: false accusations and rape. That's exactly why I feel people should be extremely cautious regarding accusations of sexual assault (especially since if the wrong person gets blamed, not only do they have to live with the stigma of being a sexual predator in the eyes of other people, not only do they have to be punished for something they didn't do, but that means the actual criminal is still out there, free to harm new victims), and that's why I want to encourage people to keep a sense of perspective and not succumb to knee-jerk reactions. So for you to just come up to me and falsely accuse me of victim-blaming and supporting not only rapists, but paedophiles, seemingly without taking a second to analyse what I wrote, while also claiming I wrote things I didn't, is pretty much the worts thing you could have done to me. I'm not accusing you of anything other than being part of a cultural climate we've created over time that instinctively brings forth that mindset. I do find it disturbing that something like that is still so embedded into our social thinking that even regular, normal people give that rationale in these situations. I do not find it "disgusting" that you have that mindset; I find it disturbing, only because I know you well enough from the years on here to know that this is diametrically opposed to everything else about you that I know. Awww, here's the part where you act like you shitting in my face is for my own good because you care so much! Man, we're entering full-Twitter bullshit now. You know what, Madison? You can drop the insincere "it's because I like you" crap. People who have even the tiniest bit of respect for others - not even affection, but basic respect - don't pull the kind of shit you just did. They don't accuse them of being some of the worst scum of the Earth, or to at least support the worst scum (which might as well be the same thing) for daring to say something you don't 100% agree with, they don't put words in their mouth, they don't degrade them in front of a crowd to drum up mob hate (again, very twitter, so I'm sure you'll then tell me it's just basic human decency), they don't treat other people like playthings they get to break if they refuse to bend. Nothing you've written here gives me the impressions you give a shit about me or anyone here. And honestly, I don't particularly expect you to, but I would expect you to not sink so low as to treat me, or anybody really, the way you did. I see nothing but bile and hatred behind your words, so don't try to pull at my heartstrings now. And don't act like you're doing me a favour by giving me the opportunity to be told how immoral I am. Just how full of yourself do you have to be to even consider that you not only know what people are saying, thinking and feeling better than they do, but that you also get to patronize them with this BS too? Boy, aren't we lucky that our saviours are here to carry the burden of educating us unwashed savages? See? I can play the ridiculous, intellectually lazy comparison game too. If one of us is "being part of a cultural climate," it's you with this pretentious attitude of thinking you inherently know everything about every issue ever, refusing to consider for even a second that you might not be entirely correct about everything at all times. And since you are morally perfect, it of course means that anyone whose ideas or opinions aren't an exact clone of yours is not just wrong, but evil. And of course, you HAVE to vilify any deviation form your own morals, because not doing so, giving anyone but yourself and your clones credit or even just respecting them, would contradict the notion that you are the flawless guardian of the one true moral code. And for the same reason, you also believe that you actually know what other people are thinking better than they do. There is no grey area here for me, sorry. If I'm being an asshole on this subject, that's ten years' worth of being a victim coming out. Well news flash, you're not the moral compass of humanity. Just because you like to reduce complicated issues to caricatural oversimplifications, does not give you the right to impose your point of view on everyone else and to vilify anything that deviates even slightly from your own interpretations. And I love how "There is no grey area here" for you, yet there apparently is a grey area on what I said, because you know SO much better than me what I said and meant. As for being a victim, I don't know what happened to you but whatever it is, I'm not the one who did it and it doesn't give you the right to take it out on complete strangers. It doesn't give you rights over other people's lives and individuality. The "being a victim" part is not an excuse or a justification for the "being an asshole" part. Many people have been victims of some sort of abuse in their life, only some behave the way you do. Frankly, between cherry-picking whichever parts of my posts you like so you can try and twist their meaning, insisting I said things I never did or implied, and now playing the "well I was a victim once so that gives me the right to be a dick to everyone else" card, your posts are getting downright manipulative. Hell, you're even doing the thing where you pretend you're doing out of love or caring whatever you're trying to make sense of.[/quote]
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Post by Zombie Mod is not a ghoul. on Sept 1, 2019 7:14:05 GMT -5
f*** it, threads done.
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