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Post by toodarkmark on May 26, 2019 16:31:09 GMT -5
I think the beef is is that acceptance of it all seems the first instance of the inevitable double standard, of “AEW good, WWE bad.” f***ing hell we're already starting trying to call people out on hypocrisy or double standards because they're being positive about something? I assure you, it's ok to let people like something without trying to convince them they're wrong for it. I think if I were to start a new religion, it would be based on "It's ok to let people like something without trying to convince them they're wrong for it."
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
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Post by TGM on May 26, 2019 16:37:23 GMT -5
lol this thread rules
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2019 16:37:27 GMT -5
Honestly, I feel bad for people who don't like AEW. I feel like they're missing out on this special thing happening. It's usually because they have this "no competition for WWE" obsession, or hate the Bucks or Cody. That's cool and all, but it's kind of sad. Like, I felt like I went to church last night. I paid 50$ and felt like I would pay 100$ for that experience, and I'm cheap. I'e been in love with wrestling since 1987, and that was a top 5 experience for me. If you don't like it, or even worse you don't like it because a part of the fanbase bashes WWE, it's your loss. I like WWE. But wrestling needs this right now. Everyone should give it a chance. I can’t imagine anyone who likes wrestling NOT enjoying that last night.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
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Post by adamclark52 on May 26, 2019 16:50:58 GMT -5
I don’t
And I don’t get the big deal about Jon Moxley either. He was terrible in the WWE ever since his match with Brock.
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Post by Display Name on May 26, 2019 16:51:40 GMT -5
Honestly, I feel bad for people who don't like AEW. I feel like they're missing out on this special thing happening. It's usually because they have this "no competition for WWE" obsession, or hate the Bucks or Cody. That's cool and all, but it's kind of sad. Like, I felt like I went to church last night. I paid 50$ and felt like I would pay 100$ for that experience, and I'm cheap. I'e been in love with wrestling since 1987, and that was a top 5 experience for me. If you don't like it, or even worse you don't like it because a part of the fanbase bashes WWE, it's your loss. I like WWE. But wrestling needs this right now. Everyone should give it a chance. I can’t imagine anyone who likes wrestling NOT enjoying that last night. I like wrestling. Have my whole life. It didn’t show me anything new. They’re catering to a specific group...and I’m not part of it.
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
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Post by TGM on May 26, 2019 16:57:46 GMT -5
I like WWE. But wrestling needs this right now. Everyone should give it a chance. I can’t imagine anyone who likes wrestling NOT enjoying that last night. I like wrestling. Have my whole life. It didn’t show me anything new. They’re catering to a specific group...and I’m not part of it. What didn't you like about DoN? And what do you like about wrestling?
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2019 17:00:19 GMT -5
I like WWE. But wrestling needs this right now. Everyone should give it a chance. I can’t imagine anyone who likes wrestling NOT enjoying that last night. I like wrestling. Have my whole life. It didn’t show me anything new. They’re catering to a specific group...and I’m not part of it. This is the preverbial boat I am in It was a great wrestling show but also pretty standard.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
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Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
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Post by fw91 on May 26, 2019 17:03:25 GMT -5
I think the beef is is that acceptance of it all seems the first instance of the inevitable double standard, of “AEW good, WWE bad.” I think the beef is that when your main complaint about something is its fans not liking the thing you may or may not like but are clearly expressing some manner of favoritism toward, and you need to talk about how those fans are wrong or hypocritical or being contrarian or motivated solely by a need to spite another product, you are falling more irrevocably into the trappings of consumer identity than anyone you're criticizing. If people don't want to lie AEW I really don't think anyone is going to mind, but this thread is structured on taking a position that disliking AEW is being done for reasons so much deeper than taste or interest in what the Elite is selling, and framing the whole thing as some kind of beleaguered defense of a multi-billion dollar company that is being victimized by all these peoploe who want to not like it. I feel like whenever non-fans are drawing the battle lines it's a real bad time and always a red flag. your stance is valid and I appreciate it. Don't get me wrong, because you yourself aren't wrong. I don't want to sound butthurt, as I'd classify myself as indifferent to AEW. Good for them if they do well. But just like many people would be annoyed if I criticized AEW, I'm sure negative posts on the RAW thread tomorrow will be celebrated. Like I said I followed the thread last night because I AM intrigued. Saw a poster list things he didn't like and it was only like 2 posts. He was told to cut the act and other things. In this thread someone was metaphorically shown the door. You do that in the WWE boards, you are read the riot act in defenses. (i.e. the, "So Don't Watch Defense.")
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Post by Chris Legentil -- Mind Freak on May 26, 2019 17:05:34 GMT -5
Don’t care at all. Saw results all over and barely glanced at them. Guarantee that if someone so much as throw out a poker chip or something like that on Raw everyone’s gonna say WWE is being petty. Cody smashing a throne with a sledgehammer isn’t considered that as far as I’ve seen. Even if that exact sequence of events were the case and even if Cody smashing the throne wasn't pretty universally agreed to be a massive dig to WWE--which makes me wonder what you've seen and if that just includes like, literally just posts on this board--we're still talking a huge difference of scale here. A man who left WWE because he didn't feel like he was being appreciated goes, starts his own company, kicks it off with a really successful show and a TV deal, takes a dig at his old boss who said he'd never be at this level. On the other side, the big company with decades of legacy and billions in revenue, taking a kick at the little guy on their prime time television deal about to transition into a 325 million/year contract. And all of that is of course ignoring the pissant comment at the Hall of Fame, which was very much the opening petty shot as far as televised stabs goes. I love this post so much it literally touches the depths of my soul
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on May 26, 2019 17:13:59 GMT -5
I think the beef is that when your main complaint about something is its fans not liking the thing you may or may not like but are clearly expressing some manner of favoritism toward, and you need to talk about how those fans are wrong or hypocritical or being contrarian or motivated solely by a need to spite another product, you are falling more irrevocably into the trappings of consumer identity than anyone you're criticizing. If people don't want to lie AEW I really don't think anyone is going to mind, but this thread is structured on taking a position that disliking AEW is being done for reasons so much deeper than taste or interest in what the Elite is selling, and framing the whole thing as some kind of beleaguered defense of a multi-billion dollar company that is being victimized by all these peoploe who want to not like it. I feel like whenever non-fans are drawing the battle lines it's a real bad time and always a red flag. your stance is valid and I appreciate it. Don't get me wrong, because you yourself aren't wrong. I don't want to sound butthurt, as I'd classify myself as indifferent to AEW. Good for them if they do well. But just like many people would be annoyed if I criticized AEW, I'm sure negative posts on the RAW thread tomorrow will be celebrated. Like I said I followed the thread last night because I AM intrigued. Saw a poster list things he didn't like and it was only like 2 posts. He was told to cut the act and other things. In this thread someone was metaphorically shown the door. You do that in the WWE boards, you are read the riot act in defenses. (i.e. the, "So Don't Watch Defense.") He was told by a mod to knock it off and I'm not going to speak for the mod or what they were thinking, but having moderated other communities before I personally read any time I see a mod tell someone to cut out something that doesn't by itself seem too bad as the sum of a lot of things going on that I'm not privy to or which are working more broadly on patterns of things that mods pay attention to but which I generally don't, on any broad basis. By contrast, there is this thread, where the main point of contention has been nothing to do with liking AEW and everything to do with inter-fan conflicts, and the door showing was one post across eight pages. Mods have posted in here and none of it has been to tell people to shut up and stop stomping over everyone else's good time. I also know that if you go on the WWE boards complaining about 'e-drones' or shittalking people who do generally like WWE you'll get grief for it there, too. I've seen PPV live threads where people were having a perfectly good time, someone came in to shit all over it in a really obnoxious way, and they were either told by the mods to chill or people said 'Come on dude this is fine, quit it'. The problem with weird fan-hating-fan double standard things like this is that they always get so reductionist in nature that they proceed to lose out on the actual context of what happens and for good measure the cases on the flip side that contradict the very points being made.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2019 17:15:26 GMT -5
I like WWE. But wrestling needs this right now. Everyone should give it a chance. I can’t imagine anyone who likes wrestling NOT enjoying that last night. I like wrestling. Have my whole life. It didn’t show me anything new. They’re catering to a specific group...and I’m not part of it. This is where I am on it. I am not target audience.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
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Post by fw91 on May 26, 2019 17:19:53 GMT -5
your stance is valid and I appreciate it. Don't get me wrong, because you yourself aren't wrong. I don't want to sound butthurt, as I'd classify myself as indifferent to AEW. Good for them if they do well. But just like many people would be annoyed if I criticized AEW, I'm sure negative posts on the RAW thread tomorrow will be celebrated. Like I said I followed the thread last night because I AM intrigued. Saw a poster list things he didn't like and it was only like 2 posts. He was told to cut the act and other things. In this thread someone was metaphorically shown the door. You do that in the WWE boards, you are read the riot act in defenses. (i.e. the, "So Don't Watch Defense.") He was told by a mod to knock it off and I'm not going to speak for the mod or what they were thinking, but having moderated other communities before I personally read any time I see a mod tell someone to cut out something that doesn't by itself seem too bad as the sum of a lot of things going on that I'm not privy to or which are working more broadly on patterns of things that mods pay attention to but which I generally don't, on any broad basis. By contrast, there is this thread, where the main point of contention has been nothing to do with liking AEW and everything to do with inter-fan conflicts, and the door showing was one post across eight pages. Mods have posted in here and none of it has been to tell people to shut up and stop stomping over everyone else's good time. I also know that if you go on the WWE boards complaining about 'e-drones' or shittalking people who do generally like WWE you'll get grief for it there, too. I've seen PPV live threads where people were having a perfectly good time, someone came in to shit all over it in a really obnoxious way, and they were either told by the mods to chill or people said 'Come on dude this is fine, quit it'. The problem with weird fan-hating-fan double standard things like this is that they always get so reductionist in nature that they proceed to lose out on the actual context of what happens and for good measure the cases on the flip side that contradict the very points being made. fair enough.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2019 17:20:18 GMT -5
Honestly, I feel bad for people who don't like AEW. I feel like they're missing out on this special thing happening. It's usually because they have this "no competition for WWE" obsession, or hate the Bucks or Cody. That's cool and all, but it's kind of sad. Like, I felt like I went to church last night. I paid 50$ and felt like I would pay 100$ for that experience, and I'm cheap. I'e been in love with wrestling since 1987, and that was a top 5 experience for me. If you don't like it, or even worse you don't like it because a part of the fanbase bashes WWE, it's your loss. I like WWE. But wrestling needs this right now. Everyone should give it a chance. I can’t imagine anyone who likes wrestling NOT enjoying that last night. I just looked over the card and the results and there was nothing there that madegree me think "oH I'd like to see that" aside from the Joshi tag at a push. One match at least was an active avoid for me and having seen pictures of the Rhodesbowl I'm uncomfortable with the blood side so yeah. I'm actually really glad it did well, and it's great seeing positivity from so many fans and wrestlers but it's just not for me.
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ssdrivin
ALF
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Post by ssdrivin on May 26, 2019 17:30:20 GMT -5
Honestly, as a Brit who has no interest in "real" sports (boxing, UFC, F1, football/soccer, etc) I've never really been interested in paying to see specific events (unless I'm physically at them, in the arena), and I was/I am very much reluctant to pay even the £15 ($20 US) it costs here for a WWE or AEW PPV. I never did so for WWE, which is a much larger, more reliable prospect with a huge track record, and I don't think I could see that changing any time soon. I did pay for DoN, which was an anomaly in itself, kinda spur of the moment thing out of sheer curiosity after being undecided/leaning towards "no" for weeks, but I can absolutely understand why people wouldn't want to pay $50-60 for it (or any other PPV, for that matter). I get that the PPVs are big blowout live events and that they're not free to perform, but as I think a couple of other people mentioned, would it not make more sense to get more people interested at a lower price point than a few people at a higher price point? Wrestling's not exactly at its peak right now, and I think $50 is only going to put people off who would otherwise have been curious and would've bought in for the fun of it, if it'd been cheaper. I don't know how the PPV market is doing in the US or elsewhere, but I can only imagine that fewer and fewer people are going to want to pay $50+ for 3-4 hours of what is essentially an unusually athletic drama show. WWE obviously realised that ahead of time, they cut the cost of viewing way down and threw in a massive bucketload of side content to get people to buy in, and while some other companies don't have that kind of library to use as an incentive I do think the PPV prices (particularly in the US) are going to have to come down at some point. I don't know how it did over in the UK, but McGregor vs Mayweather got a lot of people to plunk down $100(!) for the PPV broadcast of that joke of a fight here in the US, and boxing isn't exactly in great shape overall.
I think future shows should be cheaper than $50, but if AEW's smart they'll do some sort of promotion down the line with bars, restaurants, and universities to air the PPV's so groups of people can watch the PPV without paying the full price. WWE was really smart about this with their blast areas and AEW doing this would build a lot of brand awareness and create more paying customers.
Also wouldn't be surprised to see them do a sort of AEW Network type thing down the line once they have a lot more shows under their belt. But that simply isn't an option now as they have like, literally no tape library.
Holy cow. I couldn't even begin to contemplate spending $100 on one single (and, in the case of UFC or boxing, potentially short or highly anticlimactic) show. I guess I'm being overly hopeful in my assessment of the situation, clearly the promoters and the TV networks know what's up, or else they wouldn't be asking those kinds of figures to watch events, but eesh, that's a bold number. Even though it wouldn't come with WWE's back catalogue, I would be interested in a $10/month sub to AEW if I got to see the PPVs (and, if they could swing it, the TV stuff - but I realise that's optimistic for a company without a huge amount of leverage). That would work out to just under £8, that's less than a couple of beers and much closer to what I feel is a semi-frequently "disposable" amount of money to spend on a 3 hour wrestling show stream. I know it doesn't sound much different from £15, but psychologically it feels significantly cheaper, and more in line with what I just paid to watch WrestleMania (I didn't end up using my Network sub to watch any back catalogue stuff). Obviously for US viewers, $10 would seem massively more attractive than $50. I know there are some people who would rather not watch a stream, and would prefer a proper TV feed via cable/dish/antenna, but it would at least offer a better value proposition for anybody who is happy with a stream. Edit: " boxingnewsonline" says Sky Sports got "in excess of 1m buys" for Mayweather/McGregor, at a rather more modest £19.95/€24.95 (UK and Ireland respectively, about $25/30). I like wrestling. Have my whole life. It didn’t show me anything new. They’re catering to a specific group...and I’m not part of it. This is the preverbial boat I am in It was a great wrestling show but also pretty standard. I think that's what some people like, or are going to like, about what AEW seems to be so far. "Pretty standard" is what WWE doesn't seem to want to offer right now, in many ways it's sub-standard, and it seems reasonable for people to want a new average to work from. If "pretty standard" is a step or three up from where we are, that's an improvement, and a move in the direction of what was available in the past when some lapsed fans still enjoyed mainstream wrestling.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2019 17:36:14 GMT -5
Before Double or Nothing I just wanted them to bring competition to the WWE and give the wrestlers an alternative place to work. After watching it I'm really liking the company a lot and along with providing competition and a new space I want them to grow and keep putting on a great product. If they give that to me then I'm good.
I really enjoy both companies so I hope they continue to be around.
Oh and I still think the Young Bucks seem lame at times, still think the "anti-other company yeah guys it's US YEAHHH" crap is lame, still think most of the lower midcard guys are lame and generic and I still think they have a long road to go.
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Post by HMARK Center on May 26, 2019 17:37:25 GMT -5
I mean, there's a number of posts that are saying "I didn't watch the show", "I don't like the Bucks/Cody/etc.", "I don't like the promotion's name", etc., and in isolation there's nothing inherently wrong with most of that, but I'm seeing people say that stuff in a way that's making me question if they've actually seen more than, say, a YouTube match featuring guys like Omega, the Bucks, etc. before.
Like, there was just a back and forth earlier about the "Elite" name being taken by some as a potshot at WWE, but Omega and the Bucks came up with the moniker years ago as a subgroup within Bullet Club, to mark their dominance of the junior heavyweight division as egotistical heels. That name then allowed them to make serious bank off their own t-shirts and merch (rather than the regular Bullet Club gear, which NJPW gets the vast bulk of the money from), gave them a brand name for their YouTube channel, and led to stuff like their merch being in Hot Topic, or getting Pop Vinyls of them made. It's the name that brought them to the dance, the name people associate them with, and they wanted to integrate it into into the new promotion...so why on God's green Earth would they give that name up, and why is anyone interpreting it as a "shot at WWE" when the actual history clearly demonstrates that's not the case?
I guess it begs the question: did you follow these guys in PWG, NJPW, and/or ROH? Do you watch Being the Elite? Did you check out All In, or watch the show last night? Did you watch interviews they did instead of just reading one-off sentences with little context? Have you watched other shows, maybe an indy here or there featuring some of the talent from the card last night and get an opinion of them from that? Obviously nobody should feel like they have to do all of that, if you're not really interested then go right on ahead not being that interested, but disliking these guys when you don't follow their work, don't watch their matches, don't really listen to what they've said, etc. and creating a "poor, put-upon WWE!" narrative around it instead is just not the look to be striving for. If you've watched them and just didn't dig it, then nobody should come after you for that; we can discuss and debate, of course, but it's subjective fandom, people like what they like and don't what they don't. But don't go making up false narratives and creating some kind of corporate war zone here when none of the evidence points to that, and don't just write people off if you've never even given their work a shot in the first place, it's too narrow a way to approach things.
And yeah, I do think that we as wrestling fans need to get over the whole "only bush leagues take potshots at other promotions!" mindset. I know we're all scarred over the years from too many Billionaire Ted sketches, from Bischoff having Schiavone spoil Foley's title win, and from TNA bringing in any former WWE wrestler with a pulse and putting, say, Shannon Moore over AJ Styles or Val Venis over Chris Daniels, but people didn't freak out over the "Pepsi Challenge" commercials with Pepsi vs. Coke taste tests, they don't worry about it when Burger King or Wendy's say their beef is bigger/not frozen when compared with McDonald's, etc. Yes, if a promotion bases almost everything they do around it then it'd definitely be obnoxious, but that's pretty obviously not what happened last night, and trying to make it into that is misleading, at best.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2019 17:38:22 GMT -5
I like WWE. But wrestling needs this right now. Everyone should give it a chance. I can’t imagine anyone who likes wrestling NOT enjoying that last night. I like wrestling. Have my whole life. It didn’t show me anything new. They’re catering to a specific group...and I’m not part of it. Out of curiosity, what wrestling do you like?
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on May 26, 2019 17:42:28 GMT -5
I’ve been a WWE fan for 34 years. I abhor the current product. It’s mundane, repetitive and insulting to our intelligence.
I liked what I saw from AEW, I’m hoping at the very least it gives the WWE a kick in the ass to put on actual solid programming and not a three hour show designed to sell t shirts
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2019 17:42:53 GMT -5
Personally I've been trying to keep my expectations with AEW in check, very hopeful but with doubts.
Last night though pretty much gave me exactly what I wanted out of it - a product that, in terms of its overall structure and presentation, really isn't all that different from WWE, but just a lot more loose and fun and with a way of treating things like they actually matter. So long as they can keep that up I'm going to love it.
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Post by HMARK Center on May 26, 2019 17:44:44 GMT -5
your stance is valid and I appreciate it. Don't get me wrong, because you yourself aren't wrong. I don't want to sound butthurt, as I'd classify myself as indifferent to AEW. Good for them if they do well. But just like many people would be annoyed if I criticized AEW, I'm sure negative posts on the RAW thread tomorrow will be celebrated. Like I said I followed the thread last night because I AM intrigued. Saw a poster list things he didn't like and it was only like 2 posts. He was told to cut the act and other things. In this thread someone was metaphorically shown the door. You do that in the WWE boards, you are read the riot act in defenses. (i.e. the, "So Don't Watch Defense.") He was told by a mod to knock it off and I'm not going to speak for the mod or what they were thinking, but having moderated other communities before I personally read any time I see a mod tell someone to cut out something that doesn't by itself seem too bad as the sum of a lot of things going on that I'm not privy to or which are working more broadly on patterns of things that mods pay attention to but which I generally don't, on any broad basis. By contrast, there is this thread, where the main point of contention has been nothing to do with liking AEW and everything to do with inter-fan conflicts, and the door showing was one post across eight pages. Mods have posted in here and none of it has been to tell people to shut up and stop stomping over everyone else's good time. I also know that if you go on the WWE boards complaining about 'e-drones' or shittalking people who do generally like WWE you'll get grief for it there, too. I've seen PPV live threads where people were having a perfectly good time, someone came in to shit all over it in a really obnoxious way, and they were either told by the mods to chill or people said 'Come on dude this is fine, quit it'. The problem with weird fan-hating-fan double standard things like this is that they always get so reductionist in nature that they proceed to lose out on the actual context of what happens and for good measure the cases on the flip side that contradict the very points being made. I was the mod; "two posts" is not at all what the case was, but after talking things settled down and the people involved seemed to get on much better. People don't have to enjoy anything, but we try to make it a policy not to encourage what comes across as gimmick or attention-seeking posting.
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