|
Post by Viking Hall on May 30, 2019 18:46:30 GMT -5
From Game of Thrones, to Star Wars, to when I was on a Guns N Roses board and the consensus was the band's success was all down to Izzy Stradlin... it's a well worn trope of internet fansites that their figureheads are derided as being nothing but hacks. If you put similar effort into the careers of successful businessmen, you'd also see a long list of failed projects, terrible ideas and elements of luck. You don't fluke what Vince has done and continues to do with the business of the WWE. The fact that they are going to be making more than they ever have, with a fanbase in perpetual revolt, is amazing. But he shouldn't be head of creative in the year 2019. I don't think anyone is denying his business acumen, even if it's come down to being downright lucky at times, he's still seized the opportunities that have fallen at his feet. However, bearing in mind the proven creative minds the WWF/E have had on their payroll through the decades it's not a giant leap to say that they should have been far more successful in terms of content than they have been. The fact is, other than relatively brief boom periods which they've continued to dine out on for years afterwards, the quality of the actual on-screen product has veered from awful to unfulfilled pretty much constantly. The past few years should have been a golden era for the WWE, but it's been fairly universally panned by both fans and increasingly, the performers themselves and the root of the problem always (and has done for decades) come back to one man, Vince McMahon.
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on May 30, 2019 18:46:58 GMT -5
I never bought the notion of him being a genius. He just happened to have the best territory. And he hoodwinked a bunch of other carnies. Somebody was going to get rich, bringing wrestling to the masses, and he had the most ammo to get it done. Now, I don’t think he’s a moron or anything, but I damn sure don’t think he’s a genius: Yep, luck and timing and to his credit the balls to act on the idea of growing his brand and lack of caring what the 'old ways' were.
|
|
|
Post by abjordans on May 30, 2019 18:54:44 GMT -5
I do think Vince being born on third base and thinking he hit a triple does have a little bit of truth. Yea, I know he grew up in a trailer park and had a tough life. But, he was also born in the unique position of direct access to the most valuable wrestling territory in the world. Yea, what he has done with it is amazing, but being in the position to do that in the first place is a 1 of 1 situation.
Still probably one of the most interesting people in history.
|
|
|
Post by RI Richmark on May 30, 2019 20:22:41 GMT -5
I do think Vince being born on third base and thinking he hit a triple does have a little bit of truth. Yea, I know he grew up in a trailer park and had a tough life. But, he was also born in the unique position of direct access to the most valuable wrestling territory in the world. Yea, what he has done with it is amazing, but being in the position to do that in the first place is a 1 of 1 situation. Still probably one of the most interesting people in history. I tend to think that he was born on second and took third.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 20:36:51 GMT -5
As an on screen character he's easily one of the greatest heels ever and I can't take that away from him. Behind the scenes, creatively, it seems like about 80-90% of his ideas have been garbage. And it's not just a recent thing either... even during the Attitude Era and before, you read about some of the ideas he had and go, "WTF?"
|
|
|
Post by arrx on May 30, 2019 21:02:49 GMT -5
I Love Vince outside of Paul Heyman he has the best mind in the business. He still has it and still has sharp and on point as he ever was. Too many smarks nowanddays think he needs to step down or he not a genius when half of them wouldn't even be here without Vince.
Haters are gonna hate it seems.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 21:07:59 GMT -5
I Love Vince outside of Paul Heyman he has the best mind in the business. He still has it and still has sharp and on point as he ever was. Too many smarks nowanddays think he needs to step down or he not a genius when half of them wouldn't even be here without Vince. Haters are gonna hate it seems. How's it going, Vince?
|
|
|
Post by Joe Neglia on May 30, 2019 21:10:31 GMT -5
Vince of old had the luxury of being surrounded by people he trusted and listened to. Whether it was George Scott (who was the booker from '83-86), Gorilla Monsoon or Patterson, he trusted his agents and producers. Maybe it was Russo and Ferrara's sudden departure/betrayal, or JJ Dillon's before that, or maybe something else entirely, but something in that period caused Vince to stop listening to others and to stop trusting them.
|
|
|
Post by abjordans on May 30, 2019 21:18:24 GMT -5
I do think Vince being born on third base and thinking he hit a triple does have a little bit of truth. Yea, I know he grew up in a trailer park and had a tough life. But, he was also born in the unique position of direct access to the most valuable wrestling territory in the world. Yea, what he has done with it is amazing, but being in the position to do that in the first place is a 1 of 1 situation. Still probably one of the most interesting people in history. I tend to think that he was born on second and took third. I think maybe the truly accurate description is born on third and calling it a homer. Since he did turn it into a billion dollar global company
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 21:21:18 GMT -5
Vince of old surrounded himself with great wrestling minds and bought all of the best talent. Vince these days buys most of the best talent and surrounds himself with failed sitcom writers.
I truly think that guys like Patterson behind the scenes had more to do with the WWE’s success on screen than Vince ever did. Vince is just a ruthless businessman that would step on anyone’s throat for a dollar.
I’m so glad that the cult of personality(hi Phil!) that he and his family have built around him is crumbling, dude needs a reality check and I’m glad that he’s getting it while he’s still alive.
|
|
|
Post by Nickybojelais on May 30, 2019 21:22:54 GMT -5
Too many smarks nowanddays think he needs to step down or he not a genius when half of them wouldn't even be here without Vince. He definitely played a part in me becoming a fan of the company, but it doesn't exonerate him from the fact that he's played an even bigger part in completely driving me, and millions of others away from it.
|
|
|
Post by Cyno on May 30, 2019 21:23:06 GMT -5
History will show you that, more often than not, the most successful business people are those who know how to delegate to the right people, while micro-managers will eventually be doomed to failure, ESPECIALLY in the entertainment business. The Vince of old was hands-on, but he also delegated a lot to the right people in addition to also having a lot of luck and knowing when to jump on the mistakes made by his rivals. Current Vince is an obsessive micro-manager and it's to the detriment of everyone else. It's no surprise that the least creatively bankrupt portion of the company, NXT, also has the least direct involvement from Vince. He delegates that to Triple H who in turn delegates it to people he trusts to do a good job.
I've said it before, but Vince McMahon is VERY similar to Michael Eisner. Read about Eisner's successes and especially his failures while CEO as Disney and you see a lot of similarities in personality and attitudes as McMahon. Right down to using his product in a petty way to sling insults at his perceived enemies. (That episode of Raw that felt like half of it was dedicated to bashing Stan Kroenke because of a scheduling conflict, and the original concept for the Superstar Limo ride at Disneyland's California Adventure)
|
|
Gus Richlen Was Wrong
Patti Mayonnaise
Metal Maestro: Co-winner of the FAN Idol Throwdown!
Fun while it lasted
Posts: 38,527
|
Post by Gus Richlen Was Wrong on May 30, 2019 21:25:10 GMT -5
Vince of old had the luxury of being surrounded by people he trusted and listened to. Whether it was George Scott (who was the booker from '83-86), Gorilla Monsoon or Patterson, he trusted his agents and producers. Maybe it was Russo and Ferrara's sudden departure/betrayal, or JJ Dillon's before that, or maybe something else entirely, but something in that period caused Vince to stop listening to others and to stop trusting them. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the decisions he makes regarding talent and creativity have a lot to do with anything negative that occurs around him companywise. I remember reading a thought tossed around here that because of The Rock hightailing it for Hollywood resulted in him trying to make the brand the star and not the wrestlers themselves. Not sure if that's actually true or not but that's the kind of thing that tells me stuff about his mindset in general.
|
|
|
Post by GuyOfOwnage on May 30, 2019 21:35:14 GMT -5
From Game of Thrones, to Star Wars, to when I was on a Guns N Roses board and the consensus was the band's success was all down to Izzy Stradlin... it's a well worn trope of internet fansites that their figureheads are derided as being nothing but hacks. If you put similar effort into the careers of successful businessmen, you'd also see a long list of failed projects, terrible ideas and elements of luck. You don't fluke what Vince has done and continues to do with the business of the WWE. The fact that they are going to be making more than they ever have, with a fanbase in perpetual revolt, is amazing. But he shouldn't be head of creative in the year 2019. My feelings exactly. I would not be against him continuing to handle the business side of things, as he's still as good of a businessman as he ever was. But holy shit get him away from creative, like, yesterday. Or at the very least take the stance he did in the late 90s where he admitted he wasn't hip to pop culture anymore, and let the talent have more input.
|
|
|
Post by -Lithium- on May 30, 2019 23:46:48 GMT -5
I never bought him as a "genius" anyway. He more or less fluked his way into "killing WCW" by Austin and Rock rejecting the gimmicks HE wanted them have (just imagine thinking Steve Austin needed a mouth piece!) and letting them loose and be the characters they wanted to be. Granted he himself played a big role in the Austin story and was a great character on the shows too. Maybe his genius WAS the fact he let them loose but creatively speaking I'm not entirely buying it. Exactly. Vince creatively is about as far away from a genius as you could get. He's always been f***ing HORRENDOUS when it came to creative issues. If the WWF in the mid 90s ran solely on his creative vision, it would have died. Without question.
|
|
|
Post by The Dark Order Inferno on May 31, 2019 2:34:00 GMT -5
The WWE's biggest asset was having Linda there to run the business side if things like a business. No shortchanging people on the night of events, no skipping out entirely. The WWE gives people what they promise on the financial side of things and that helped them to stripmine the territories and watch as they tore themselves apart due to carniex being carnies and out of their depth as business people. Vince was always a lunatic, but the business side was solid, and is to this day, it's not something he's heavily involved in, hasn't filled with lackeys, he's got qualified people in that role and he's reaping the benefits, even as the WWE rots, creatively.
Seriously, Linda would never have approved the spending that killed Jim Crockett Promotions, the nightmare contracts that killed WCW, Dixie's spending in TNA and for the most part she kept Vince in check, just quietly doing her job. The fact it took so long for the WWE to start losing money in the nineties is a testament to her acumen as a business person.
|
|
|
Post by Viking Hall on May 31, 2019 2:44:22 GMT -5
It would be interesting to put together a list of the worst ever ideas either proposed or committed to screen and see how many of them could be attributed to the demented mind of Vince McMahon.
|
|
Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
Posts: 6,508
|
Post by Johnny Flamingo on May 31, 2019 5:01:46 GMT -5
I think Vince is the greatest wrestling promoter of all time. When he is firing on all cylinders the product is awesome. No one can touch it.
However, Vince can also be very slow to adjust to newer trends. It is like he is afraid of change. This he drives things into the ground long after he should have moved on.
For whatever reason he seems really stuck in this current phase. Not sure if he is afraid to change now or surrounded by horrible “ yes men” but he is refusing to change now despite serious issues with the current product.
I hope he can have at least one more good run before he has to give up the reigns.
I don’t think the mystique is gone, just damaged.
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,169
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on May 31, 2019 6:32:32 GMT -5
I think Vince is the greatest wrestling promoter of all time. When he is firing on all cylinders the product is awesome. No one can touch it. However, Vince can also be very slow to adjust to newer trends. It is like he is afraid of change. This he drives things into the ground long after he should have moved on. For whatever reason he seems really stuck in this current phase. Not sure if he is afraid to change now or surrounded by horrible “ yes men” but he is refusing to change now despite serious issues with the current product. I hope he can have at least one more good run before he has to give up the reigns. I don’t think the mystique is gone, just damaged. Vince isn't capable of another good run, because he does not share the values that this current generation of dedicated fans (the exact fans that AEW is making every effort to court and appeal to) have, and therefore is always going to spite them for not agreeing with his antiquated worldview.
|
|
Nr1Humanoid
Hank Scorpio
Is the #3 humanoid at best.
Posts: 5,513
|
Post by Nr1Humanoid on May 31, 2019 7:26:31 GMT -5
Imagine living in a world where Hitler trusted the skilled warriors working for him rather than consider himself better than all of them.
Not trying to suggest the two of them are similar in any other way.
|
|