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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 8:36:00 GMT -5
Imagine living in a world where Hitler trusted the skilled warriors working for him rather than consider himself better than all of them. Not trying to suggest the two of them are similar in any other way. Wow, only two pages and Godwin's Law has already been met. Not discrediting your case; just pointing it out.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 8:52:55 GMT -5
I Love Vince outside of Paul Heyman he has the best mind in the business. He still has it and still has sharp and on point as he ever was. Too many smarks nowanddays think he needs to step down or he not a genius when half of them wouldn't even be here without Vince. Haters are gonna hate it seems. Before you finish creaming your pants, I'm going to stop you there, buddy. If he still "has it", explain the steep decline in viewership over the past few years? Yes, the company has gotten sweetheart deals recently, but let's think about the fact that it boils down to networks looking for content exclusivity in today's streaming age and not due to any rampant success. Rather; it's due to WWE being a legacy brand that the company can coast off of, and has since they've not built an audience in 15 years. One can also look, historically, at when Vince had complete control and things did not go so well. Like 1992.
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TWERKIN' MAGGLE
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on May 31, 2019 8:57:33 GMT -5
I Love Vince outside of Paul Heyman he has the best mind in the business. He still has it and still has sharp and on point as he ever was. Too many smarks nowanddays think he needs to step down or he not a genius when half of them wouldn't even be here without Vince. Haters are gonna hate it seems. -10% viewers year-to-year every week on average. But yeah, haters gonna hate. He had his finger on the pulse in the 80s. He was forced to go along with popular culture in the late 90s or go bankrupt. He's turned in shit ever since there was no more competition. Get out of here with this. That's not "an opinion" that's willful ignorance. You can like Vince McMahon and admit he's not turning in anything that's hitting the mark. You don't need to defend shit writing to justify liking something.
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Post by cabbageboy on May 31, 2019 9:24:50 GMT -5
It is a bit bizarre but I think Vince has become the equivalent of a mean spirited old guy that sits around watching Fox News all day or something. I think that is one underrated negative thing about WWE over the past few years. It's dark. It's downbeat. It's not much fun to watch.
The Moxley podcast hit upon something I've been saying for a while, namely that Vince's obsession with Lesnar is wrecking WWE. The initial idea of Lesnar being back was to have a special attraction part time guy that put others over, but somewhere in all of this it turned into him ending The Streak, destroying John Cena's credibility, and has spent the past 5 years otherwise destroying top superstars. A lot of people have said Vince can't create stars anymore, but in this case he actually has. It's the worst possible option ever.
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Post by willywonka666 on May 31, 2019 9:27:02 GMT -5
That Moxley interview was really damning and kind of opened my eyes. I guess I have just chosen to ignore how much people say Vince is the problem. Or maybe just didn’t want to believe how much of a problem there actually was with the company as a whole, which directly ties to how much of a problem Vince is. I feel like the morale lately and things like this interview may get the ball rolling on Vince swallowing his pride and stepping back. Like, Ambrose really shed light to me how convoluted the whole WWE creative process is. One big thing I took away from and was so thankful he mentioned it, is when this all started, which was roughly around the time he put WCW out of business-the last piece he needed for his collection.
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Spider2024
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Post by Spider2024 on May 31, 2019 9:28:29 GMT -5
The Vince mystique is deader than the X-Men's Mystique will be at the end of the upcoming Dark Phoenix film. ...spoiler alert.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on May 31, 2019 9:32:48 GMT -5
I don’t think Vince is an idiot or anything, but I’ve always thought his genius was overrated. Wow I can’t see how the guy who had New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Toronto, Baltimore, and Washington DC in his territory was the guy to first succeed nationally over the guys running Charlotte, Atlanta, Dallas, or Minneapolis. And like many have pointed out, part of what created the Attitude Era was that things were so bad that guys were desperate and decided to reject Vince’s ideas and lobby for their own thing. Nearly every big star of that era outside of maybe Kane and Undertaker were guys who rejected their lame initial character and made a new one closer to their true life personality.
Where Vince does get credit is that he saw the money in merchandising the hell out of his acts. While he wasn’t the first to have merchandise, he was the first to put a business level operation around it. He didn’t create his best characters, but his merchandising machine made his best characters richer than they would’ve been working for someone else.
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Post by celtics543 on May 31, 2019 10:14:37 GMT -5
I think part of the Vince issue is that he doesn't really respect the other people in creative like he did in his younger days. He grew up respecting a guy like Patterson or Gorilla and he could look at them as the older guard that he worked with. Now those guys are all dead or retired and he doesn't have the same respect for HHH, Pritchard, or any of those other guys who are chronologically younger than him and haven't been with him the whole time.
Vince got a lot of credit for the empire his dad built and the ideas he got from some of the older advisers he started out with like Albano, Patterson, Monsoon, etc. Plus the territory guys got to train in places other than WWE. Then basically the most popular periods of WWE were driven by Hogan and then Austin, two guys who were allowed to be themselves and fit the era perfectly. Every other era has been average because it's a WWE created star or a guy who was forced to be something other than himself.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on May 31, 2019 12:43:03 GMT -5
Vince was a great businessman, and once smart enough of a booker to use the tools he had at his disposal (like Bruce and Pat) to their fullest potential.
But (like even Bruce and Pat) he got old. He had enough smarts to swallow his pride and get help from new blood in the 90's, after his company was nearly crippled.
Now he's even older and even more set in his way, and those he used to listen to are either too old themselves to do too much good or not around anymore.
Society has passed Vince McMahon by, and like a lot of guys like him that it does he resents it for it and is trying his hardest to prove it's wrong and he's right.
In a lot of ways Vince is the Howard Hughes of the modern era. We've definitely started into the wearing kleenex boxes on his feet and peeing into jars era Howard of Vince's life too by the look of things.
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Post by Hit Girl on May 31, 2019 13:53:51 GMT -5
It was always a myth.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on May 31, 2019 15:11:53 GMT -5
I think Vince is the greatest wrestling promoter of all time. When he is firing on all cylinders the product is awesome. No one can touch it. However, Vince can also be very slow to adjust to newer trends. It is like he is afraid of change. This he drives things into the ground long after he should have moved on. For whatever reason he seems really stuck in this current phase. Not sure if he is afraid to change now or surrounded by horrible “ yes men” but he is refusing to change now despite serious issues with the current product. I hope he can have at least one more good run before he has to give up the reigns. I don’t think the mystique is gone, just damaged. Vince isn't capable of another good run, because he does not share the values that this current generation of dedicated fans (the exact fans that AEW is making every effort to court and appeal to) have, and therefore is always going to spite them for not agreeing with his antiquated worldview. This I sadly agree with. He has zero understanding of the current generation and seemingly has zero intention of trying to understand them. I’m 40 and it feels like he has really lost the pulse big time. Can’t imagine how out of touch it feels to the younger generations.
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Post by corndog on May 31, 2019 15:34:26 GMT -5
I think clearly others deserve a lot of credit, especially Linda with how well she has handled and built the business side of the company. Cornette said the main difference between JCP and WWE was the front office. Even when Crockett was bringing in millions of dollars, he still had the same old 70 year old accountant that was doing the books before their expansion and they simply weren't set up to handle that kind of money.
But I won't take all of the credit from Vince, I think Stephanie's word "visionary" is the best way to describe him. While everyone talks about how he was lucky since most of the promoters were old and set in their ways, it could have been very easy for Vince to just enjoy having the best territory and count his cash. He saw a national product that was able to achieve mainstream popularity by bringing in celebrities and using MTV as a catalyst. While Vince has clearly lost touch with what people want now, he certainly had it in the 80s. At the same time, his knowledge of the business by learning from his dad, helped him heavily in taking out the other territories and building his own product. He had an incredible eye for talent both in the ring and behind the curtain. He has also had a completely difference approach to wrestling. While most territories preferred to build around top in ring workers, Vince built the WWF around strong, over the top characters with a good look and strong charisma. This was perfect for the 1980s where style overcame substance. Sure guys like Savage and Roberts could work, but they also had the character, presence and promo ability to draw anyone in.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on May 31, 2019 15:51:42 GMT -5
Vince isn't capable of another good run, because he does not share the values that this current generation of dedicated fans (the exact fans that AEW is making every effort to court and appeal to) have, and therefore is always going to spite them for not agreeing with his antiquated worldview. This I sadly agree with. He has zero understanding of the current generation and seemingly has zero intention of trying to understand them. I’m 40 and it feels like he has really lost the pulse big time. Can’t imagine how out of touch it feels to the younger generations. Oh, I don't think he has zero understanding. I think he has absolute resentment. He doesn't want a progressive, woke fanbase. He wants rowdy, chauvinistic dudebros.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on May 31, 2019 16:14:35 GMT -5
Is there anything Vince has done post 2000 that he deserves credit as a genius for? I’m honestly asking. I can’t think of any
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Magnus the Magnificent
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on May 31, 2019 16:44:49 GMT -5
How many millions has "great businessman" Vince McMahon pissed away on the XFL and Linda's political aspirations?
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 16:58:18 GMT -5
Man I don't really think dude is a genius either. People love tossing that word around. You can be good at your job and not be a genius. Just because he does something you love he's a genius? Nah bruh.
If Vince is a genius in anything it's being a genius at evading all of this controversy these past few decades after the steroid stuff. He's a magician in hiding skeletons and tricking blind fans to push his bullshit.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 19:02:28 GMT -5
Is there anything Vince has done post 2000 that he deserves credit as a genius for? I’m honestly asking. I can’t think of any I can't say he's a genius for it, but strangely enough, 205 Live was at its best when Vince was said to be the one running things.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on May 31, 2019 19:14:18 GMT -5
Is there anything Vince has done post 2000 that he deserves credit as a genius for? I’m honestly asking. I can’t think of any Don't know how much influence he had in these things, but these things were great since the attitude era 1) Turning Bradshaw into JBL 2) Evolution made stars out of Orton and Batista 3) The original Brock run 4) Making Cena the Dr of Thuganomics that led him into superstardom 5) The early days of Eugene (Yes you read that right. He was over like rover) 6) Turning Edge into the Rate R Superstar super heel 7) The Eddie and Benoit title wins 8) Keeping the Cena rumble return dead quiet 9) Hiring Bischoff as RAW GM 10) Seth Rollins Cash in 11) The entire Shield Run
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Post by arrogantmodel on May 31, 2019 20:38:10 GMT -5
Is there anything Vince has done post 2000 that he deserves credit as a genius for? I’m honestly asking. I can’t think of any Don't know how much influence he had in these things, but these things were great since the attitude era 1) Turning Bradshaw into JBL 2) Evolution made stars out of Orton and Batista 3) The original Brock run 4) Making Cena the Dr of Thuganomics that led him into superstardom 5) The early days of Eugene (Yes you read that right. He was over like rover) 6) Turning Edge into the Rate R Superstar super heel 7) The Eddie and Benoit title wins 8) Keeping the Cena rumble return dead quiet 9) Hiring Bischoff as RAW GM 10) Seth Rollins Cash in 11) The entire Shield Run I feel like Vince could have had a hand in maybe four of those. There's stories of The Shield guys having to fight against them jobbing to guys so early in the run, or stupid storylines. Wasn't Cena kind of on the chopping block before the "rapping" took off? I imagine Triple H may have been a bigger influence on picking Orton and Batista. Vince loves the kids of former stars, but I doubt he had those plans for Randy. You would have to be a special kind of stupid to screw up Brock's first run. I can see JBL coming up with his character to pander to Vince. A rich, white, conservative man? Make him champ ASAP! Yeah, Vince probably didn't really launch these things. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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Post by Joe Neglia on May 31, 2019 22:39:44 GMT -5
I Love Vince outside of Paul Heyman he has the best mind in the business. He still has it and still has sharp and on point as he ever was. Too many smarks nowanddays think he needs to step down or he not a genius when half of them wouldn't even be here without Vince. Haters are gonna hate it seems. -10% viewers year-to-year every week on average. But yeah, haters gonna hate. He had his finger on the pulse in the 80s. He was forced to go along with popular culture in the late 90s or go bankrupt. He's turned in shit ever since there was no more competition. Get out of here with this. That's not "an opinion" that's willful ignorance. You can like Vince McMahon and admit he's not turning in anything that's hitting the mark. You don't need to defend shit writing to justify liking something. Yeah, let's dial things back down juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust a notch. K?
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