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Post by Cyno on Jun 1, 2019 0:37:59 GMT -5
When I think "genius moves in wrestling," turning Bradshaw into JBL is one of the last things that'd ever come into my mind.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Jun 1, 2019 0:42:54 GMT -5
Is there anything Vince has done post 2000 that he deserves credit as a genius for? I’m honestly asking. I can’t think of any Not sure it’s genius but WWE Network has been a huge success and has changed the business. AEW will eventually have to start their own network, if not they’ll look outdated I would have to give Vince some credit for that
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Post by asellus on Jun 1, 2019 0:55:17 GMT -5
Man I don't really think dude is a genius either. People love tossing that word around. You can be good at your job and not be a genius. Just because he does something you love he's a genius? Nah bruh. If Vince is a genius in anything it's being a genius at evading all of this controversy these past few decades after the steroid stuff. He's a magician in hiding skeletons and tricking blind fans to push his bullshit. It’s the jedi mind trick of his doing the work. And I agree. He’s not really a genius, but a good business man who’s fallen way off the road when it comes to his product and pop culture. And even the «good» business man part is being challenged by some of his decisions like the XFL (original and reboot) or the world bodybuilding federation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 1:02:25 GMT -5
Man I don't really think dude is a genius either. People love tossing that word around. You can be good at your job and not be a genius. Just because he does something you love he's a genius? Nah bruh. If Vince is a genius in anything it's being a genius at evading all of this controversy these past few decades after the steroid stuff. He's a magician in hiding skeletons and tricking blind fans to push his bullshit. It’s the jedi mind trick of his doing the work. And I agree. He’s not really a genius, but a good business man who’s fallen way off the road when it comes to his product and pop culture. And even the «good» business man part is being challenged by some of his decisions like the XFL (original and reboot) or the world bodybuilding federation. Yep that's completely it.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jun 1, 2019 1:17:55 GMT -5
Is there anything Vince has done post 2000 that he deserves credit as a genius for? I’m honestly asking. I can’t think of any Don't know how much influence he had in these things, but these things were great since the attitude era 1) Turning Bradshaw into JBL 2) Evolution made stars out of Orton and Batista 3) The original Brock run 4) Making Cena the Dr of Thuganomics that led him into superstardom 5) The early days of Eugene (Yes you read that right. He was over like rover) 6) Turning Edge into the Rate R Superstar super heel 7) The Eddie and Benoit title wins 8) Keeping the Cena rumble return dead quiet 9) Hiring Bischoff as RAW GM 10) Seth Rollins Cash in 11) The entire Shield Run Bradshaw's main event run went over like a fart in an elevator and helped kill the smackdown brand as nobody bought him as a main event talent. Go away heat is not good heat. Orton has been pushed consistently for the best part of two decades and has never come close to fulfilling his initial promise and becoming the star they've pushed him as. Whenever his program failed to spark interest, it was always the other guy who got blamed, not Orton and never Vince's booking. Batista became a bigger star outside the WWE for projects unrelated to wrestling and Vince deserves little credit for that, Batista has been outspoken about how unpleasant working WWE Tv can be, and has many have said, that's Vince. Evolution also featured Triple H being pushed as the face of the WWE, cutting long, drawn out promos and being booked like the second coming of Hulk Hogan even as crowds, ratings and buyrates shrank, and spawning two average main eventers doesn't really cancel out the damage done. Brock was a once in a lifetime talent, so some credit is due there for finding and being willing to pay to secure him, but he also pushed for Brock to work with Bob Holly and promoted the toxic backstage culture, all the nonsense that burned him out. The rapper gimmick was Stephanie and Cena himself, if I remember correctly. Vince's contribution wad the Marine era on raw which was Cena becoming completely unlikeable and overcoming the odds, the period where he'd beat Benoit at submission matches, make Sabu tap, but was always the underdog, goshdarnit! One that never showed weakness. The Eugene character was Nick Dinsmore's creation. Edge had been pushed as a generic smiling babyface, tagging with Hogan and being as generic as hell under Vince's genius booking, until the crowd turned him heel because of Matt Hardy's firing and the Lita situation. The character wasn't born from a moment of genius, it was born from live crowds hijacking shows in spite of what Vince wanted. While Eddie and Benoit was a nice moment, I wouldn't call it genius. Sending crowds home happy without them having to fight for it being so rare it's considered memorable, is more troubling than anything else. Bischoff had played the sleazy heel authority figure in WCW, doing so before heel Vince. Hiring someone who was available to play a character they've played elsewhere isn't so much genius as common sense. I don't remember the Cena return or the Seth cash in all that well so won't comment there. The Shield had to fight Vince's booking from day one, having to work to avoid getting jobbed out in hsndicap matches. Take away that power of veto after they broke up, and you got Roman being Cena 2.0 only without women and kids onside and you got the 'wacky' Dean Ambrose stuff that burned him out.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 1:48:52 GMT -5
We can't say "the buck stops with Vince" when things are bad and then find addendums to remove any credit from him when things are good. Can't have that both ways.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Jun 1, 2019 1:59:59 GMT -5
We can't say "the buck stops with Vince" when things are bad and then find addendums to remove any credit from him when things are good. Can't have that both ways. Nah, giving Vince credit when the origins of something are known to be something else is just flat out lying. Sorry. If someone wants to point out something bad wasn't Vince, then that's the equivalent.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jun 1, 2019 2:02:45 GMT -5
We can't say "the buck stops with Vince" when things are bad and then find addendums to remove any credit from him when things are good. Can't have that both ways. What if when things are good it can be a complex variety of reasons ranging from wrestling having their input to the minds Vince surrounds himself with driving ideas, and when the bad is bad it's Vince yelling about ass injections? Because it really does feel like Vvnce's best days benefited from him having a council of good minds all working to bring something together, and that things are getting worse and worse the more he insulates himself? If he could make great things happen when he had great minds for the business and valued their input, and if things stopped being so great when other voices became window dressing for his ego? I'd compare him to George Lucas. Yeah George Lucas made the original trilogy, which was good, and the prequel trilogy, which wasn't. In the latter he had complete creative control and shit the bed, in the original he didn't, and it was the efforts of people saving him from his ideas that made those work well. He had other people to write and edit and revise his ideas to keep him from stopping that, while once he had secured power and respect his unbridled George Lucas Vision was a horrible mistake. Some people need editors and other voices and someone to tell them no, and Vince McMahon is someone who has trashed his own company by slowly removing other voices, being the guy at the top who no editor can touch, and not taking no for an answer.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 1, 2019 2:03:32 GMT -5
The most credit Vince gets for a lot of that stuff is not getting in the way or knowing to strike when the iron's hot. And that's because he's always been a far better promoter than booker/writer. In terms of being a creative mind, quite frankly, that's never been a strength of his. Even when WWF/E was at its prime, his creative ideas were more often than not pretty lousy. Hell, two of the biggest stars ever made in WWF, Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock, succeeded because he accepted that they were better than his ideas like The Ringmaster and blue chipper Rocky Maivia. And the Stone Cold character pretty much originated in ECW anyway.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jun 1, 2019 2:06:54 GMT -5
The most credit Vince gets for a lot of that stuff is not getting in the way or knowing to strike when the iron's hot. And that's because he's always been a far better promoter than booker/writer. In terms of being a creative mind, quite frankly, that's never been a strength of his. Even when WWF/E was at its prime, his creative ideas were more often than not pretty lousy. Hell, two of the biggest stars ever made in WWF, Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock, succeeded because he accepted that they were better than his ideas like The Ringmaster and blue chipper Rocky Maivia. And the Stone Cold character pretty much originated in ECW anyway. I'm not going to call Vince Russo a great anything, but it was his ideas and the push into a certain kind of content that helped make WWE thrive. While Russo wasn't a sharp, wrestling-minded good ideas person, Vince also had people who did understand and would push the fundamental basis of wrestling just fine, Pat Patterson in particular having been with Vince through all his best years. Vince is not a good creative mind, never has been, and the idea of splitting the business and the creative duties of his role between Triple H and Steph is a good idea if only because there is no reason that those two roles need to be occupied by the same person and there may well be a lot of really good reasons for why they shouldn't.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Jun 1, 2019 2:11:08 GMT -5
This isn't a new thing in media either.
Authors have editors that help filter their novels.
Writers and directors have other parties like editors and producers that filter their shows & movies (if the system is working and not a George Lucas situation).
Having a second opinion is always a good thing. Having a filter of some sort for creative ideas is good. Being able to kill your darlings is vital.
Vince hasn't had that in some time and it shows. Much like a lot of booking personalities that have gotten to go unfiltered (Russo).
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jun 1, 2019 3:41:47 GMT -5
We can't say "the buck stops with Vince" when things are bad and then find addendums to remove any credit from him when things are good. Can't have that both ways. A stopped clock being right twice a day doesn't mean the clock should be hailed as a genius visionary and be praised for it's bold prediction of the future. It is what it is, and Vince is what he is. Vince at his best listens to other people's ideas and gives them room to grow. He's very rarely the source of great ideas himself, which unfortunately he believes he is at this point, and his ideas and whims undermine people far more than they help and have for a long time.
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dav
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Post by dav on Jun 1, 2019 4:51:43 GMT -5
Imagine living in a world where Hitler trusted the skilled warriors working for him rather than consider himself better than all of them. Not trying to suggest the two of them are similar in any other way. Eh... The whole 'Germany would have won if not for Hitler being mean to his generals' narrative came from the generals themselves after the war was over. All too easy to shove the blame onto a dead man. As for the topic itself, Vince had the vision and drive to get the company to the top in the 80's, but has faltered since then. While he was forced to change tact in the 90's, that same drive isn't there anymore and he's probably going to have to step back for things to improve.
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vinnie245
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Post by vinnie245 on Jun 1, 2019 7:19:41 GMT -5
Bischoff had played the sleazy heel authority figure in WCW, doing so before heel Vince. Hiring someone who was available to play a character they've played elsewhere isn't so much genius as common sense. They even shit the bed on that and missed out on a ton of money by not having Bischoff and Vince feud right off the bat instead of having them hug and shake hands...
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Post by ToyfareMark on Jun 1, 2019 7:33:42 GMT -5
Bischoff had played the sleazy heel authority figure in WCW, doing so before heel Vince. Hiring someone who was available to play a character they've played elsewhere isn't so much genius as common sense. They even shit the bed on that and missed out on a ton of money by not having Bischoff and Vince feud right off the bat instead of having them hug and shake hands... Vince played a heel before Bischoff, and there is plenty of video evidence.
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Post by avenger on Jun 1, 2019 8:35:08 GMT -5
We can't say "the buck stops with Vince" when things are bad and then find addendums to remove any credit from him when things are good. Can't have that both ways. Nah, giving Vince credit when the origins of something are known to be something else is just flat out lying. Sorry. If someone wants to point out something bad wasn't Vince, then that's the equivalent. Nah, Vince is a control freak who has the final say on anything and everything that makes it onto TV, or he isn't. He's not as bad as his detractors make out, nor as good as his fans say he is. But to read some comments here, he's lucky, and good, rather than a genius/whatever. Reality is he's a great wrestling promoter and wrestling businessman. He inherited a profitable regional territory. 35 years on, he has an international company, bigger than every other wrestling business on the planet put together. He and his family can sell shares for tens and hundreds of thousands of ponds at a time, without relinquishing any control of the company whatsover. Not just that, but over the years, he's been able to lose money on vanity projects that have bombed (WBF, XFL, the early films), because he doesn't want to be seen as a wrasslin' promoter. Vince has taken loads of other people's ideas to the next level or their first in wrestling (showing on closed-circuit TV, 24 hour streaming, Hulk Hogan, using PPV), yet from a booking perspective he's shown he'll listen to others at times (the Attitude Era went against all his instincts of having a family friendly product with a dominant babyface champ), but not at others. And sometimes the secret is knowing when to listen to others, and when to ignore them. Vince still has the mystique amongst the causal viewer. Whether the hardcore like them or not, the McMahons spike ratings, and regardless of how many times Vince tries to write himself off TV for good (the exploding limo, "Paul! I can't feel my legs"), they keep pushing for him to come back.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jun 1, 2019 9:16:55 GMT -5
When I think "genius moves in wrestling," turning Bradshaw into JBL is one of the last things that'd ever come into my mind. think about it a bit more deeply though. Tag team lifer Bradshaw became a believable main eventer out of it. And I agreed with what was said before. We can't have it both ways. If the buck truly stops at Vince, then you cannot pin something on him that didn't work out on him even if it wasn't his idea, then revoke any credit for something that was good.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jun 1, 2019 9:31:54 GMT -5
When I think "genius moves in wrestling," turning Bradshaw into JBL is one of the last things that'd ever come into my mind. think about it a bit more deeply though. Tag team lifer Bradshaw became a believable main eventer out of it. And I agreed with what was said before. We can't have it both ways. If the buck truly stops at Vince, then you cannot pin something on him that didn't work out on him even if it wasn't his idea, then revoke any credit for something that was good. Did he though? How well did Smackdown as a brand do while he was being treated as though he was a star player there? Not well. He was a main eventer in the sense that was the position he was in on the card, not in the sense that fans wanted him there and were willing to tune in to see him get beat. He was put into the main event with little build, he didn't go from a tag guy after an amazing, well written build that had everyone hooked, it was 'Farooq is gone now, Bradshaw is rich and a jerk, cheap heat, cheap heat, main event.' He could have done better, given decent build, but fans were given no reason to care, so they didn't, not exactly a genius move on Vince's part.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jun 1, 2019 9:54:12 GMT -5
think about it a bit more deeply though. Tag team lifer Bradshaw became a believable main eventer out of it. And I agreed with what was said before. We can't have it both ways. If the buck truly stops at Vince, then you cannot pin something on him that didn't work out on him even if it wasn't his idea, then revoke any credit for something that was good. Did he though? How well did Smackdown as a brand do while he was being treated as though he was a star player there? Not well. He was a main eventer in the sense that was the position he was in on the card, not in the sense that fans wanted him there and were willing to tune in to see him get beat. He was put into the main event with little build, he didn't go from a tag guy after an amazing, well written build that had everyone hooked, it was 'Farooq is gone now, Bradshaw is rich and a jerk, cheap heat, cheap heat, main event.' He could have done better, given decent build, but fans were given no reason to care, so they didn't, not exactly a genius move on Vince's part. see in your explanation of JBL came to be... you aren't wrong. That's why to me it was amazing call because after a while he became believable and credible. Unlike say Jinder.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jun 1, 2019 9:59:57 GMT -5
We can't say "the buck stops with Vince" when things are bad and then find addendums to remove any credit from him when things are good. Can't have that both ways. You can credit the man for his success where he has succeed without being just silly about it. The man is not now, nor ever has been a genius. Einsten, Mozart, Da Vinci, and men of that ilk were geniuses. Vince was a really good promoter and a ruthless businessman.
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