Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 25, 2021 19:24:44 GMT -5
Joel should have respected Ellie's agency. What they did with her was her call, not his. That being said....
Literally nothing about their plan made me think them killing Ellie was likely to turn anything up. "Let's carve her open and just see, it'll work out because it's all we've got" isn't a plan. It's a desperation hail mary.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 25, 2021 19:28:19 GMT -5
Yeah while Joel isn't exactly a standup citizen, the Fireflies came off to me as a bunch of loonies who wanted to carve up a young girl for pretty stupid reasons. I mean even if they hadn't already killed several other people trying to do the same thing... and how the hell are they supposed to share this phantom cure with no infrastructure in place?
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 25, 2021 19:31:50 GMT -5
I get what they are going for Joel killed her father because he selfishly wanted Ellie to live. The doctor was just unlucky to get caught in the crossfire. However, Abby tortured and then killed Joel. Anything short of Joel doing the same to her or her father was not going to endear her to anyone In fairness, she's not a bad character. I do like showing her life compared to Ellie but both are one-dimensional characters seeking revenge and I'm waiting for neither one to die at the ending. (I somehow have not spoiled the ending for myself in the year this game has been out but I know it pissed people off) Plus with the tech available there is no way the Fireflys plan would have worked anyway. There is even a note in the hospital saying there is hardly any chance of it succeeding. Also, basic science. Yeah, I think that is the flaw knowing that it probably wouldn't have worked BUT Joel doomed the only chance they could have had even if it being slim Abby and Ellie both went for their selfish desires. Abby for her father getting killed despite knowing herself and listening to what would happen to the girl (Ellie) without her input but because she agreed with the plan it didn't matter. Ellie because Abby killed her father figure when they were bonding again If/when you do a game 3, you have to find a way to utilize a battle hardened Ellie but also find ways to bring the other nature out of her. I would suspect another time skip
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 25, 2021 19:34:22 GMT -5
Joel should have respected Ellie's agency. What they did with her was her call, not his. That being said.... Literally nothing about their plan made me think them killing Ellie was likely to turn anything up. "Let's carve her open and just see, it'll work out because it's all we've got" isn't a plan. It's a desperation hail mary. Yeah, both mistakes were going to the extreme Story of both games is extreme reactions to things that could have went other ways. Fireflies essentially being a domestic terrorist group in itself was always going to end bad but their desperation at grasping at straws is what doomed them
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 25, 2021 19:35:26 GMT -5
Yeah while Joel isn't exactly a standup citizen, the Fireflies came off to me as a bunch of loonies who wanted to carve up a young girl for pretty stupid reasons. I mean even if they hadn't already killed several other people trying to do the same thing... and how the hell are they supposed to share this phantom cure with no infrastructure in place? Or hoping no one steals the cure when they get wind of it
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Mozenrath
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Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,121
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 25, 2021 19:37:40 GMT -5
Joel should have respected Ellie's agency. What they did with her was her call, not his. That being said.... Literally nothing about their plan made me think them killing Ellie was likely to turn anything up. "Let's carve her open and just see, it'll work out because it's all we've got" isn't a plan. It's a desperation hail mary. Yeah, both mistakes were going to the extreme Story of both games is extreme reactions to things that could have went other ways. Fireflies essentially being a domestic terrorist group in itself was always going to end bad but their desperation at grasping at straws is what doomed them Like, I feel like I'd have been more torn if they had done things like run tests with her blood or a skin scraping or something, not just start with "We'll carve her open like a pumpkin. Dude, trust me." As it is, it made them sound like hasty morons, especially since the story could just as easily be, "Joel doomed humanity because he let quacks kill Ellie in a foolish experiment."
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 25, 2021 19:57:13 GMT -5
Yeah, both mistakes were going to the extreme Story of both games is extreme reactions to things that could have went other ways. Fireflies essentially being a domestic terrorist group in itself was always going to end bad but their desperation at grasping at straws is what doomed them Like, I feel like I'd have been more torn if they had done things like run tests with her blood or a skin scraping or something, not just start with "We'll carve her open like a pumpkin. Dude, trust me." As it is, it made them sound like hasty morons, especially since the story could just as easily be, "Joel doomed humanity because he let quacks kill Ellie in a foolish experiment." Yeah, like you can create the narrative "Joel doomed society" but that's a small part of the story to what actually happened. Like you said, it could easily been Joel doomed everyone because he let them kill the only known person with immunity because he listened to them. Did he have to kill them? No. But they damn sure wasn't giving her up easily and was stuck in their ways that even if they didn't kill her they would have most likely horrible experimented on Ellie
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 26, 2021 13:42:47 GMT -5
My take on Abby isn't so much that she's a horrible person who has to die in a fire like some people. I see her more as just doing something awful for deeply misguided reasons and then rightly spending the rest of the game paying for her mistake. Plus while I don't think Joel deserved what happened to him at all, it at least made sense from a narrative standpoint. Now the rest of the assholes who took part in it? Yeah not a one of them comes off sympathetic at all. At least Abby has the "He killed my dad" excuse but none of the others have anything even approximating an excuse for their actions. So I do find the cycle of revenge narrative a little hollow on that front.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 26, 2021 13:47:38 GMT -5
My take on Abby isn't so much that she's a horrible person who has to die in a fire like some people. I see her more as just doing something awful for deeply misguided reasons and then rightly spending the rest of the game paying for her mistake. Plus while I don't think Joel deserved what happened to him at all, it at least made sense from a narrative standpoint. Now the rest of the assholes who took part in it? Yeah not a one of them comes off sympathetic at all. At least Abby has the "He killed my dad" excuse but none of the others have anything even approximating an excuse for their actions. So I do find the cycle of revenge narrative a little hollow on that front. They were Fireflies, at least Manny, Owen and Mel were so they shared in her pain which sort of ties into her narrative as a whole. Owen at least tried to talk her down or very least their relationship ended cause she was so bent on revenge Nobody felt sorry for their actions tho. Even Mel said Joel should got worse but she didn't want to be there to see it so you don't have a narrative where you feel sorry for any of them
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 26, 2021 13:50:36 GMT -5
My take on Abby isn't so much that she's a horrible person who has to die in a fire like some people. I see her more as just doing something awful for deeply misguided reasons and then rightly spending the rest of the game paying for her mistake. Plus while I don't think Joel deserved what happened to him at all, it at least made sense from a narrative standpoint. Now the rest of the assholes who took part in it? Yeah not a one of them comes off sympathetic at all. At least Abby has the "He killed my dad" excuse but none of the others have anything even approximating an excuse for their actions. So I do find the cycle of revenge narrative a little hollow on that front. They were Fireflies, at least Manny, Owen and Mel were so they shared in her pain which sort of ties into her narrative as a whole. Owen at least tried to talk her down or very least their relationship ended cause she was so bent on revenge Nobody felt sorry for their actions tho. Even Mel said Joel should got worse but she didn't want to be there to see it so you don't have a narrative where you feel sorry for any of them Yeah it's very much a situation where all you can do is go "well you picked a fight with them what did you expect would happen?"
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 2, 2021 23:17:02 GMT -5
Got passed the Rat King, I want more shit like that
So much more you can explore with that type of thing. Sure it might dive a little too further into a RE type and not really a human based game but you can make it work
As I said before, just because you have me playing as Abby doesn't mean I will feel sorry for her. I can't say I like or dislike her. She's there but she's not a bad character. You cut her compassion at the knees when you introduce her as a brutal character
It worked for Negan to become a fan favorite because he had a shit ton of charisma and had fun qualities in his own way. Abby is very strong willed but also flawed (just like Ellie) but you took both so far to the other side, it is hard to really feel them as characters
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Aug 2, 2021 23:35:46 GMT -5
I loved the rat king fight. It was really well done. Challemging enough to feel like an achievement to win. But not too hard to be frustrating and annoying.
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Post by häšhtå.gdālėÿ on Aug 2, 2021 23:54:01 GMT -5
I loved the rat king fight. It was really well done. Challemging enough to feel like an achievement to win. But not too hard to be frustrating and annoying. I self-handicapped myself by thinking I was confined to the single room you start in. I later see someone on a lets play able to use an entire wing of the hospital to help escape and find some cover. 😂
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 4, 2021 13:02:26 GMT -5
Mixed feelings on watching Ellie get her ass whooped like that. This game was a damn chore to play through
If they must do another game, def got to do a big time skip like 10 years ahead. Will have to have more of the heart TLOU1 had. I wouldn't mind Ellie dying at the end of a TLOU3 to protect the child and that ending the series but they can't really expect fans to sit through a rough ride like that again
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2021 13:43:42 GMT -5
Yepppppppppppp.
As much as I loved the first game you better believe I'm not replaying the second one. I'd say it's a masterpiece, it's an amazing achievement but that story is something I never wanna experience again. After what happened to shit, everybody in this game I'm not with it. Lev's like the only person who's good and alive at the end. This game was literally making my stomach hurt during the latter part of it.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 4, 2021 13:59:52 GMT -5
Yepppppppppppp. As much as I loved the first game you better believe I'm not replaying the second one. I'd say it's a masterpiece, it's an amazing achievement but that story is something I never wanna experience again. After what happened to shit, everybody in this game I'm not with it. Lev's like the only person who's good and alive at the end. This game was literally making my stomach hurt during the latter part of it. It took me a whole year to finish this game This is misery the game. Once again, Abby is okay but you not going make me feel sorry for her. Her and Ellie are unlikeable and an attempt to garner sympathy from both sides and somehow make Abby her Joel to Lev's Ellie, that ain't hit for me. Like fine Abby killed Joel. It's whatever really depending on how you look at it. But she brutally murdered him and it didn't fix her. He died for nothing, a footnote in her story and a thing of guilt in Ellie for not making up with him For a story that is supposed to be Ellie (and Abby by extension), I still care more about Joel than those two
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Aug 5, 2021 8:44:36 GMT -5
The fact you couldn't kill Abby at the end was one of those endings that just spoiled the rest of the game for me. I left the game thinking that's it, what the f***?
The game's story .... wasn't great. But I really enjoyed the gameplay--the extra enemies such as dogs and archers added a new challenge (those dogs were a pain, but it was fun figuring out a way past them) and I enjoyed seeing more of the world.
But that ending was just such a let down.
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Post by häšhtå.gdālėÿ on Aug 5, 2021 10:05:36 GMT -5
The whole goddamn thing would have been just swell had Tommy just never showed up in the epilogue and everyone lives as happily every after as possible in this shitty world.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 5, 2021 10:13:12 GMT -5
The whole goddamn thing would have been just swell had Tommy just never showed up in the epilogue and everyone lives as happily every after as possible in this shitty world. “Happy” Ellie and her survivors guilt and panic attacks would eventually tore that family apart
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 5, 2021 10:17:30 GMT -5
The fact you couldn't kill Abby at the end was one of those endings that just spoiled the rest of the game for me. I left the game thinking that's it, what the f***? The game's story .... wasn't great. But I really enjoyed the gameplay--the extra enemies such as dogs and archers added a new challenge (those dogs were a pain, but it was fun figuring out a way past them) and I enjoyed seeing more of the world. But that ending was just such a let down. I think cause the game is so linear, they didn’t want to give you that branching option tho they should have I’m sure a decent number of people would let Abby survive and the story they wanted to tell would been changed. Their is comfort in that Ellie is finally at some type of peace but I wished we got more heart in the game as opposed to the misery The ending with Ellie and Joel talking about rebuilding their relationship was heartbreaking but in a good way. They could got a lot more mileage in trying to build their relationship in the game as opposed to the flashbacks
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