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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 14, 2019 2:52:49 GMT -5
Not having the title main event would be the wrong decision imo
This is an experiment with Page and you can't just kill in the middle before the finish line if they planned on seeing it though. If this was their 10th show then year they could not put the title on last but for their first champion crowned they have to. They would do a disservice to however would be champ by not doing so.
Jericho winning "salvage" whatever situation they find themselves in BUT in kayfabe why have him behind a person he defeated so he can get this chance at the title. If they still plan to go ahead with Page, then you still at least have the pomp and circumstance of crowning him being a big deal with the boys coming to congratulate him in the ring and all that
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Post by One-Armed Drummer of Defrebel on Jul 14, 2019 3:06:15 GMT -5
They don't have to see anything through when it's clearly not meant to be. Mox vs. Omega is by far and away the most intriguing match on the card and you'd be doing way worse to the belt by having it be introduced when a substantial bit of the audience has tuned out. "Not meant to be" is in the eyes of the beholder. You just can't put your title match on the backburner because one man has fallen down especially when it is your FIRST title match for your brand You endure and see this through There's literally 0 reason to endure anything when putting the match on 2nd to last would put more eyes on the belt than it'd have if it had to follow a match between the two biggest names outside of WWE in North American wrestling right now. There's nothing to be gained by having their 1st world title match be the point when a substantial amount of people have checked out or tuned out altogether.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jul 14, 2019 3:36:10 GMT -5
Can I also point out that the narrative that Kip Sabian brought into the match of Adam Page being handed opportunities made no sense at all? Page won the battle royal fair and square. Sure, he got lucky and drew the Joker card, but he still went through most of the field as there were very few eliminations until he made it to the ring. Page would follow this up by getting another W in the Fyter Fest four way, so the build up to this point was Page capitalizing on every opportunity he got, in spite of having a bad leg.
Now, this might all make sense if Kip Sabian was a full of it bullshitter heel, but this match was really face vs. face, with Sabian playing the heel by way of being the less established person in the match. This leads to the real problem is that AEW may have planted this idea of Hangman Page being undeserving of the title shot just by having Sabian go with this angle, and then they followed it with Sabian taking Page to the limit, which advanced such sentiment instead of proving it wrong. Now, if people really start associating Adam Page with Elite nepotism, it's really their fault for bringing it up to begin with.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jul 14, 2019 3:58:42 GMT -5
If it matters at all, I'm actually going through the FightfortheFallen hashtag, and Kip Sabian actually seems to have won a bunch of people over via kissing the fan and being a smartass
So... he actually got SOMETHING out of that match which is something I can't say or see much of for Page.
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Post by eJm on Jul 14, 2019 4:06:41 GMT -5
Yes, I completely get the issues with Page, I’ve said them myself and others have and they’re fair even if I don’t 100% agree, but quite frankly for your biggest show, if you don’t have your first world title match main event you risk killing that belt from the off. Doesn’t matter the circumstances or if you think it’s working or not, that title match needs to main event.
If we were talking about a WrestleMania 18 situation a few years down the line and a Hogan/Rock style match was more anticipated then the HHH/Jericho title match then yes, that should headline. But we’re not in that situation because HHH/Jericho wasn’t to crown a first champion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2019 4:19:27 GMT -5
I'm not really seeing how it'll do more damage to the belt having it not close the show than it would having it make its debut with a likely either dead or actively rebellious crowd.
Hell, the Universal title had both of those things going against it and while that belt is awful and meaningless, I'd argue not being on the end of its debut show really doesn't at all relate to why that is.
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Post by One-Armed Drummer of Defrebel on Jul 14, 2019 4:27:24 GMT -5
Can I also point out that the narrative that Kip Sabian brought into the match of Adam Page being handed opportunities made no sense at all? Page won the battle royal fair and square. Sure, he got lucky and drew the Joker card, but he still went through most of the field as there were very few eliminations until he made it to the ring. Page would follow this up by getting another W in the Fyter Fest four way, so the build up to this point was Page capitalizing on every opportunity he got, in spite of having a bad leg. Now, this might all make sense if Kip Sabian was a full of it bullshitter heel, but this match was really face vs. face, with Sabian playing the heel by way of being the less established person in the match. This leads to the real problem is that AEW may have planted this idea of Hangman Page being undeserving of the title shot just by having Sabian go with this angle, and then they followed it with Sabian taking Page to the limit, which advanced such sentiment instead of proving it wrong. Now, if people really start associating Adam Page with Elite nepotism, it's really their fault for bringing it up to begin with. Wait, hold up KIP SABIAN'S SUPPOSED TO BE A FACE?
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 14, 2019 4:27:45 GMT -5
I'm not really seeing how it'll do more damage to the belt having it not close the show than it would having it make its debut with a likely either dead or actively rebellious crowd. Hell, the Universal title had both of those things going against it and while that belt is awful and meaningless, I'd argue not being on the end of its debut show really doesn't at all relate to why that is. The Universal title was a new title but it was not the first title in its company history and first title in general
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Post by Brian Suntan on Jul 14, 2019 7:01:21 GMT -5
Comparisons with Roman... by the time he was forced into being the guy he'd already spent several years as part of the most over team in the modern era. He, Ambrose and Rollins were already main-eventers by right when The Shield split.
With Page, him being pushed at the top of the card feels completely arbitrary. He's not had years of being a star behind him, doesn't have much of a character and is very average on the mic and in the ring.
I don't really understand what he's got going for him tbh. He'd struggle to make a top ten of most over talent in AEW, and that's before their roster bulks up for TV.
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King Devitt
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Post by King Devitt on Jul 14, 2019 7:18:21 GMT -5
I think people are taking the Roman comparison's WAY too literally.
He can't logistically be compared to Reigns because AEW hasn't even been a company long enough for Page to have that kind of push. It's not apples to apples.
BUT
In the short time AEW has been a company they've already managed to overpush/expose him to the point he's being compared to Roman Reigns. That's the issue. He's starting to get go away heat.
No it's not as bad as Roman's, Page isn't winning "superstar of the year" awards when more popular people are in the polls, he's not getting a title match his first match out of the group that helped establish him, and he's not the final image of their not-even-debuted weekly TV show telling the world "this is your guy now".
But it feels like it's happening eerily the same just at an accelerated pace.
What's making it even worse is that AEW always seems to have its pulse on the reactions of the fans. They address them without fail on BTE, so they know what's going on, but it seems like it's way too late to fix anything since it's set in stone.
Another problem as others have stated is the way Page has been presented. Take the PAC situation out of it for a sec...
Page is treated like a bigger deal than he comes off as, and this is coming from someone that loved his work on BTE over the years. The guy can do serious, and he can do comedy very well, but it's not clicking. I don't blame them early on for choosing him as their ace, but it's just not working. He's not ready.
But the booking is doing him zero favors. So you have the Battle Royal, which had more over people in it, and Page iirc is the only one that comes out with Pyro, and gets the "Joker" spot. Favoritism upon favoritism. Just like Roman. Similar, but different, but it's there.
You have the 4-way in which ALL 3 of the other people were more over than Page.
It's not a good look. They've booked him horribly, and tonight was no different.
I agree that Moxley vs. Jericho vs. Omega is your AEW World Title match and main event. Way more intriguing and SO many different ways you can tell that story in the lead up because all 3 are established characters that know who they are in and out of the ring, and how to present themselves on the mic and how they wrestle.
Page doesn't have that. But in a rare miss by AEW instead of booking to his strengths, they're showing his weaknesses, and it's just as much their fault behind the scenes as it is Page's. He knows it's not working, they know it's not working, so it'll be interesting to see if they can right the ship in any way, because right now even new people like Darby Allin are outclassing their chosen one.
And that's the issue too. We already went through it with Roman being shoved down our throats, and it's all too familiar and is clearly happening again.
The comparisons are completely justified, but no they're not 1:1 because that's impossible.
If you've rebelled against something and see it happening again, you're going to rebel faster, and that's what's going on.
I like Adam Page, but even I'm like "dude GTFO".
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jul 14, 2019 7:32:45 GMT -5
If you've rebelled against something and see it happening again, you're going to rebel faster, and that's what's going on. That could be applied to what happened with Reigns, really, because of lingering resentment over John Cena's run as the company ace and all that entailed. Like, 2014-2015 was when they were just starting to phase Cena out as the ace, but many saw Reigns almost as a literal recasting of the same role because of the booking he got, and rebelled before he even got to the mountaintop. As opposed to Cena who got there, then got gimmick-tweaked after the fact and got the subsequent backlash.
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Post by 111111 on Jul 14, 2019 8:57:43 GMT -5
Adam Page is boring as shit.
He's a decent wrestler and all but there's plenty of guys on the roster further down the card that I care about 1000x more than Page.
They should have spent a year or so building him up and getting him to show some personality.
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4real
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Post by 4real on Jul 14, 2019 9:31:08 GMT -5
I’m assuming this is all just to give Page experience of being in the main event scene and seeing what he can do. Once he loses to Jericho I’d imagine he’ll be in a midcard feud with MJF or Spears or something.
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Post by Dub H on Jul 14, 2019 9:53:13 GMT -5
Honestly I don't even think the plan is to have Page be THE guy.
Just to have the rub of being the first champion.Kenny don't need it for sure.It still aint working but I dont think it is a "this guy is going to be long term the best"
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Post by cabbageboy on Jul 14, 2019 10:15:51 GMT -5
Why on earth would you go into TNT with Page as your first champion though? That's like killing your TV show out of the gate. At least Jericho gives you that mainstream cred, even if he's a stopgap measure. I'm telling you, the absolute worst thing they can do is come out of the gate with a guy getting a bad push when he's not over. That's just...death. It would be like if Heyman had put the world title on Justin Credible in Aug. 1999 in preparation for the TNN show, haha. Instead of putting it on him later in 2000 when there were few options.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 14, 2019 15:49:04 GMT -5
I think people should relax a bit on the feeling that AEW wants Page as their "ace" or whatever; I don't think that's the case at all, at least not in 2019-2020.
Like others have said already, going by earlier news reports the original plan appeared to be to have All Out headlined by Omega vs. PAC for the title; once PAC was out of Double or Nothing, instead of keeping Kenny in the match they decided they didn't want to screw with the face/heel dynamic and went with Page vs. Jericho, instead. My best bet is that Jericho's likely to win, and that they money in the possibility of building to Omega/Jericho 3 for Kenny's coronation. I don't think Moxley entered into a lot of these plans, since by some accounts he was a late addition, anyway.
That said, for the promotion's early run they knew the Elite, as a unit, were a draw, so they've put a lot of work into establishing other people while using the Elite group to sell the cards as they ramp up toward the TNT debut. When plans changed vis a vis PAC (and likely when they could confirm they'd have Moxley in the fold), they probably thought they could just maintain having one of the core group in the first world title match and keep it at that. Problem is, Page has a less established personality and gimmick than his teammates do, and just running him out there as a straightforward babyface with no real narrative isn't going to work, and if you're going to instead establish him via his in-ring actions then it doesn't really work to have it done in a comedy battle royal, a 4-way that didn't do much to especially highlight him, or a near time-limit draw with an unestablished opponent that didn't play to his strengths. That's just not great planning.
All that said, I agree with what a couple others have said: this really isn't anything that a couple of focused video packages/interviews can't fix. Page is talented, he's capable, but he's not an established main eventer like Omega, he's not a widely known former WWE guy like Cody, and he doesn't have a partner to play off the way the Bucks do, so they can't just go from here to August 31 without giving Page something more to work with and to chew on. Given how these guys have done things thus far, I think they're smart enough to recognize that.
Whatever the case, again, I think the most likely outcome is Page fighting hard but coming up short against Jericho, then slotting into a strong upper midcard style feud with someone like MJF, while we eventually build to scummy heel champ Jericho being chased by a back on his game Omega...or maybe Omega and Moxley, depending on how that match goes at All Out.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 14, 2019 16:12:58 GMT -5
I think people should relax a bit on the feeling that AEW wants Page as their "ace" or whatever; I don't think that's the case at all, at least not in 2019-2020. Like others have said already, going by earlier news reports the original plan appeared to be to have All Out headlined by Omega vs. PAC for the title; once PAC was out of Double or Nothing, instead of keeping Kenny in the match they decided they didn't want to screw with the face/heel dynamic and went with Page vs. Jericho, instead. My best bet is that Jericho's likely to win, and that they money in the possibility of building to Omega/Jericho 3 for Kenny's coronation. I don't think Moxley entered into a lot of these plans, since by some accounts he was a late addition, anyway. That said, for the promotion's early run they knew the Elite, as a unit, were a draw, so they've put a lot of work into establishing other people while using the Elite group to sell the cards as they ramp up toward the TNT debut. When plans changed vis a vis PAC (and likely when they could confirm they'd have Moxley in the fold), they probably thought they could just maintain having one of the core group in the first world title match and keep it at that. Problem is, Page has a less established personality and gimmick than his teammates do, and just running him out there as a straightforward babyface with no real narrative isn't going to work, and if you're going to instead establish him via his in-ring actions then it doesn't really work to have it done in a comedy battle royal, a 4-way that didn't do much to especially highlight him, or a near time-limit draw with an unestablished opponent that didn't play to his strengths. That's just not great planning. All that said, I agree with what a couple others have said: this really isn't anything that a couple of focused video packages/interviews can't fix. Page is talented, he's capable, but he's not an established main eventer like Omega, he's not a widely known former WWE guy like Cody, and he doesn't have a partner to play off the way the Bucks do, so they can't just go from here to August 31 without giving Page something more to work with and to chew on. Given how these guys have done things thus far, I think they're smart enough to recognize that. Whatever the case, again, I think the most likely outcome is Page fighting hard but coming up short against Jericho, then slotting into a strong upper midcard style feud with someone like MJF, while we eventually build to scummy heel champ Jericho being chased by a back on his game Omega...or maybe Omega and Moxley, depending on how that match goes at All Out. Yea, Idk where this Ace stuff came from. Do they want him as a top guy? Yes. As THE GUY, no
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 14, 2019 16:42:06 GMT -5
Honestly I don't even think the plan is to have Page be THE guy. Just to have the rub of being the first champion.Kenny don't need it for sure.It still aint working but I dont think it is a "this guy is going to be long term the best" That's the direction they are going which is why he's in the spot he's in but they have done him an injustice of not giving him something to sink his teeth into and make him come out looking good each time He's being treated like a guy who we have supposed to have watched his journey and have a rooting interest but the opposite effect is happening and he's slipping As I said starting the thread they were in between a rock and a hard place with his push could fall short and be hurt whether he wins the title or not
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Magnus the Magnificent
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Jul 14, 2019 17:45:04 GMT -5
I think it's kind of funny that a face has a nickname like "Hangman" and carries a lynching rope.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 14, 2019 17:46:59 GMT -5
I think it's kind of funny that a face has a nickname like "Hangman" and carries a lynching rope. Because he's been heel up to this point
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