Steveweiser
Dalek
Mickie Mickie You're So Fine... Hey Mickie!
THE GRAPS
Posts: 50,249
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Post by Steveweiser on Aug 24, 2019 4:26:05 GMT -5
He has many ALLOCADES
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Aug 24, 2019 4:38:49 GMT -5
It's 2019 and we still do the goddamn "I Don't Know" joke *shakes head for another 15 years*
Anyways, Luger is Exhibit A in the counter-argument for the "Duhhh, WCW couldn't book a star. Only Mr Mackmahon could book a star" argument. The guy was always a star in NWA/WCW, awful in WWF. I also liked the fact that he was really the catalyst for Sting's turn into the Crow; after Sting had his back when no one else did the year before, Luger let his paranoia get the best of him and refused to believe Sting was still with WCW and that was the cruelest cut of all for the Stinger. Continuity in wrestling, a concept!
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Magnus the Magnificent
King Koopa
didn't want one.
I could write a book about what you don't know!
Posts: 12,488 
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Aug 24, 2019 8:33:01 GMT -5
He's the first guy to get a submission win over Hogan, right?
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Post by Hypnosis on Aug 24, 2019 9:43:47 GMT -5
It's 2019 and we still do the goddamn "I Don't Know" joke *shakes head for another 15 years*Anyways, Luger is Exhibit A in the counter-argument for the "Duhhh, WCW couldn't book a star. Only Mr Mackmahon could book a star" argument. The guy was always a star in NWA/WCW, awful in WWF. I also liked the fact that he was really the catalyst for Sting's turn into the Crow; after Sting had his back when no one else did the year before, Luger let his paranoia get the best of him and refused to believe Sting was still with WCW and that was the cruelest cut of all for the Stinger. Continuity in wrestling, a concept! His WWF run as "Made in the USA" Luger looked like he was wrestling a shirt that was too tight, Billy! The debut on the first Nitro was an awesome moment, but I do think his WCW World title reign in '97 could have gone a bit longer than it did, though. |
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Post by bitteroldman on Aug 24, 2019 10:03:59 GMT -5
He's the first guy to get a submission win over Hogan, right? Nope, Piper beat him with a sleeper at Starcade 96 and Inoki submitted him in Japan waaayy before that (1981?). |
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hassanchop
Grimlock
Who are you to doubt Belldandy?
Posts: 14,796
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Post by hassanchop on Aug 24, 2019 10:34:02 GMT -5
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Post by Celexa Bliss 54 on Aug 24, 2019 10:38:36 GMT -5
I watched through the new Generation and switched over to WCW during the monday night wars and Luger finally started to connect as a face in 97, so naturally they squandered it, giving him a few days with the belt so Hogan can look like a team player, paving the way for what he did to Sting. Luger never really recovered from that and kind of floated around the card like a lost soul, looking really dated in the Russo era. He was never cut out to be a WWF style babyface, slapping hands, kissing babies, not when he looked and acted like the guy who'd steal your girlfriend and smirk at you, wriggling his pecs. In WCW he became a good antihero, the villain on the side of good because the people he was going up against were so much worse, he was friends with someone with bulletproof face credentials so the fans went along with it, even though they knew he was a sneak and a snake. I loved that his real life friendship with Sting was made into fuel for storylines the way it was in a largely keyfabe heavy company like WCW. In terms of titles, I think he probably got what he deserved, there were better options at world title level for most of his run, even if they weren't used particularly well. The tail end of the 90s and 2000s were probably his best shot at a serious run but WCW gave up on him and relegated him to midcard veteran by then... because of course they did. Luger's push post-Road Wild was an enigma. He didn't fit in anywhere on the card. He was too big a name to fight for the US or TV Titles at the time, and the Tag Titles were destined to be The Steiners'. He had programs with Hall and Savage that were more there to service what his opponents were doing. They briefly paired him with Rick Steiner, but there was no chemistry, unlike Sting and Rick or Sting and Luger. Which brings up the point, why didn't they have Sting pick Luger as his partner instead of Nash? I feel like once Luger had that big moment at Nitro 100, Bischoff was like, "There, I held up my end of the deal." Then he didn't even bother with him. He lost to Buff freakin' Bagwell at Starrcade, FFS. Way to treat a guy who helped you at a pivotal point in the company's history. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 17:22:52 GMT -5
I watched through the new Generation and switched over to WCW during the monday night wars and Luger finally started to connect as a face in 97, so naturally they squandered it, giving him a few days with the belt so Hogan can look like a team player, paving the way for what he did to Sting. Luger never really recovered from that and kind of floated around the card like a lost soul, looking really dated in the Russo era. He was never cut out to be a WWF style babyface, slapping hands, kissing babies, not when he looked and acted like the guy who'd steal your girlfriend and smirk at you, wriggling his pecs. In WCW he became a good antihero, the villain on the side of good because the people he was going up against were so much worse, he was friends with someone with bulletproof face credentials so the fans went along with it, even though they knew he was a sneak and a snake. I loved that his real life friendship with Sting was made into fuel for storylines the way it was in a largely keyfabe heavy company like WCW. In terms of titles, I think he probably got what he deserved, there were better options at world title level for most of his run, even if they weren't used particularly well. The tail end of the 90s and 2000s were probably his best shot at a serious run but WCW gave up on him and relegated him to midcard veteran by then... because of course they did. Luger's push post-Road Wild was an enigma. He didn't fit in anywhere on the card. He was too big a name to fight for the US or TV Titles at the time, and the Tag Titles were destined to be The Steiners'. He had programs with Hall and Savage that were more there to service what his opponents were doing. They briefly paired him with Rick Steiner, but there was no chemistry, unlike Sting and Rick or Sting and Luger. Which brings up the point, why didn't they have Sting pick Luger as his partner instead of Nash? I feel like once Luger had that big moment at Nitro 100, Bischoff was like, "There, I held up my end of the deal." Then he didn't even bother with him. He lost to Buff freakin' Bagwell at Starrcade, FFS. Way to treat a guy who helped you at a pivotal point in the company's history. Hogan holding the belt hostage was starting to kneecap the NWO vs. WCW feud at that point. It felt too one-sided. Letting the red-hot Luger have an actual reign with the title with Hogan persuing would have added some needed fuel to the tank. |
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Post by abjordans on Aug 24, 2019 17:33:34 GMT -5
I would say his legacy is possibly the best physique in wrestling history and being one of the bigger stars of the early 90s.
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Post by Celexa Bliss 54 on Aug 24, 2019 20:28:15 GMT -5
Luger's push post-Road Wild was an enigma. He didn't fit in anywhere on the card. He was too big a name to fight for the US or TV Titles at the time, and the Tag Titles were destined to be The Steiners'. He had programs with Hall and Savage that were more there to service what his opponents were doing. They briefly paired him with Rick Steiner, but there was no chemistry, unlike Sting and Rick or Sting and Luger. Which brings up the point, why didn't they have Sting pick Luger as his partner instead of Nash? I feel like once Luger had that big moment at Nitro 100, Bischoff was like, "There, I held up my end of the deal." Then he didn't even bother with him. He lost to Buff freakin' Bagwell at Starrcade, FFS. Way to treat a guy who helped you at a pivotal point in the company's history. Hogan holding the belt hostage was starting to kneecap the NWO vs. WCW feud at that point. It felt too one-sided. Letting the red-hot Luger have an actual reign with the title with Hogan persuing would have added some needed fuel to the tank. Exactly. And Hogan vs. Sting really didn't need the title. It was Sting's first match since September 1996, I think it sold itself. Luger could have defended against Hall at Starrcade, then Sting could have gone after Lex next, since Lex didn't believe him when he said he wasn't with the nWo. Could have worked a cool face vs. face feud until Hogan was ready to reclaim the gold, then Sting could have finally taken it from him at Bash at the Beach. Would have freshened up Hogan and the nWo, since they wouldn't have the power anymore, salvage Luger as a draw, and make Sting's return into the road to redemption it always should have been. |
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Aug 24, 2019 20:51:34 GMT -5
Luger was always in the position, as a face, of being the #2 face behind Sting in WCW and, yes, Bret Hart in WWF. He worked well as a heel during his run with the Four Horsemen and was kind of their big guy. Outside it, he seemed not to have a whole lot going for him character-wise. In WWF, for whatever reason (and it continues to this day), Vince couldn't abide the fact that his most over babyface and the Face of His Company(tm) was not some blond, blue-eyed American; jingoism simply wasn't selling in 1993. It really seems short sighted and off "The Vince MaMahon story" On topic, I loved WCW heel luger in late 80's/early 90's. It was the only time I really dug him. I still think he should've done the Lex Express the exact same in WWE, just as a shit heel that was a condescending dick to the fans. Or go full delusional like Bo Dallas was in NXT, have him think he's the next Hogan, go all in and full meta with it. Just as a heel. |
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hassanchop
Grimlock
Who are you to doubt Belldandy?
Posts: 14,796
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Post by hassanchop on Aug 25, 2019 3:22:41 GMT -5
It really seems short sighted and off "The Vince MaMahon story" On topic, I loved WCW heel luger in late 80's/early 90's. It was the only time I really dug him. I still think he should've done the Lex Express the exact same in WWE, just as a shit heel that was a condescending dick to the fans. Or go full delusional like Bo Dallas was in NXT, have him think he's the next Hogan, go all in and full meta with it. Just as a heel. For that to work it should be either against Bret Hart or a face Yokozuna. In Yokozuna’s case, have Hogan involved in putting Yoko over and call out Luger when he goes on about Yoko not being “one of us”. |
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 25, 2019 3:54:44 GMT -5
The Elizabeth thing being something that people/WWE hold against him is a weird idea cuz it assumes she had no agency in her own life. I'm not saying people don't feel that way, it just seems weird as it puts undue blame on him and treats her like the character she played rather than a real person.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,125
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 25, 2019 3:58:23 GMT -5
The Elizabeth thing being something that people/WWE hold against him is a weird idea cuz it assumes she had no agency in her own life. I'm not saying people don't feel that way, it just seems weird as it puts undue blame on him and treats her like the character she played rather than a real person. If it had just been her ODing, that'd be one thing, but the domestic violence in tandem with it probably sealed Lex's fate. |
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Post by LexExpress on Aug 25, 2019 4:47:03 GMT -5
A memorable Lex fact for me is him having an autobiography with about 10% wrestling in it, despite being a famous wrestler. I didn't buy your book to read about football and Jesus!
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 25, 2019 4:49:00 GMT -5
The Elizabeth thing being something that people/WWE hold against him is a weird idea cuz it assumes she had no agency in her own life. I'm not saying people don't feel that way, it just seems weird as it puts undue blame on him and treats her like the character she played rather than a real person. If it had just beevn her ODing, that'd be one thing, but the domestic violence in tandem with it probably sealed Lex's fate. Oh for sure, not absolving him of his part in the domestic violence; it's just odd how people treat her as her character and not a person with her own demons. |
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Post by jason1980s on Aug 25, 2019 9:44:38 GMT -5
It's probably a fan base that grew up admiring a woman like Elizabeth on TV and believing more in the character she played on TV rather than herself off TV. She may have been perfect in real life but she may also have been perfectly flawed.
Another thing is, talent. Lex wasn't the talent that Macho Man was and yet Macho gets no blame for anything Elizabeth related. Perhaps there was some PTSD in her life 10 years after her life with Macho Man ended where she still had to deal with the type of man he was in their relationship. Drug use can start anywhere in anyone's life and in her case not necessarily because Lex Luger wanted to try things with her.
Lex is one of the few people in wrestling who has had a true redemption. He lives his life of faith and knows that his life was saved and I'm not even religious enough to believe in the things that he may believe. I think Lex did a lot better than he gets credit for. Bad booking really hurt the face turn almost from the very beginning and yet the storylines just kept going. But WWF went with Lex because he was really all they had. Razor wasn't quite ready, Macho was a little past prime, Crush was god awful, Steiners were just a team, Tatanka wasn't main event and his push was lacking and Bret fell slightly down the card after the WrestleMania loss.
I don't see Lex as a guy who needs the hall of fame but he does have a good relationship with WWE so anything's possible. I don't see his health and appearance being a big issue standing in the way. The wrestling fans know what he looks like and contrary to WWE's belief that the whole world IS watching them, I don't think the non-WWE fan will wind up tuning in to the HOF ceremonies to see Lex and question steroid use in wrestling in the past. The only problem I could foresee is the Elizabeth fans starting some "boos."
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 25, 2019 9:55:36 GMT -5
If it had just beevn her ODing, that'd be one thing, but the domestic violence in tandem with it probably sealed Lex's fate. Oh for sure, not absolving him of his part in the domestic violence; it's just odd how people treat her as her character and not a person with her own demons. The convenience of people not wanting to judge the person as opposed to the character she portrayed. She got the wholesome girl image forever which almost basically admits she couldn't be without faults Both played a part in her death but unfortunately for Luger he will get the blame because he is alive to be able to tell the tale |
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Aug 25, 2019 10:50:45 GMT -5
Oh for sure, not absolving him of his part in the domestic violence; it's just odd how people treat her as her character and not a person with her own demons. The convenience of people not wanting to judge the person as opposed to the character she portrayed. She got the wholesome girl image forever which almost basically admits she couldn't be without faults Both played a part in her death but unfortunately for Luger he will get the blame because he is alive to be able to tell the tale I'd also add that from what people have always said about both of them, Elizabeth was almost universally liked by anyone who has come in contact with her, while many people found Lex to be an asshole. My lesson out of the whole thing; drugs and addiction don't discriminate. |
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J. Hova
Don Corleone
Emotionally exhausted and morally bankrupt
Posts: 2,001
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Post by J. Hova on Aug 26, 2019 1:08:40 GMT -5
Lex is the classic number 2 whatever in the company. If he was a heel, he was behind Yoko in the WWF or Flair/Vader/Hogan in WCW. If he was face he was behind Bret in the WWF and Sting in WCW. His selling and body language was always very wooden to me. I thought his offense was very well suited to him and his heel work was very good. His face work was meh outside of beating Hogan for the title or when he was chasing Flair (although I'll argue that Sting should have been in that spot).
Overall, he was an underachiever, but still had a damn solid career. I think JR said it best in an interview somewhere, "If you looked at an 8x10 and based it solely on that, Luger would be an all time great and a 1st ballot HoFer." I think he'll eventually get in the Hall of Fame and deserves it. His appearance is different, but everyone loves a story of redemption and his relationship with the WWE is currently very good. I don't think you can solely blame steroids for his physical issues of today. I have no doubts they played a factor but considering he was a walking pharmacy for what 10 years, there were a lot of factors for that spinal stroke.
As far as the Miss Elizabeth stuff goes, he deserves some of the blame for her death. From pretty much all sources, that was the very definition of a toxic relationship. It wasn't like he poured the booze down her throat and crushed pills into her food. The domestic abuse charges were dismissed after her death and I have no idea if those are two mutually exclusive ideas, but according to Luger, it was because the coroner found that the injury to her face was a scraping injury as opposed to an impact injury which matched up to Luger and Liz's statements that it was from a fall while walking the dogs. How much of that is true, who knows? I'm not trying to defend a woman beater, if that's the case. I'm just stating another version of events. There are only two people who know for sure what happened there, one is dead and the other is probably not going to admit to it if it did happen.
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