Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 11, 2020 13:05:48 GMT -5
I’m sorry I was drunk as shit and annoying and basically ex communicado myself from posting again, but shit Naito winning is gonna go down as such a historic moment and I love it. Of everyone in NJPW history he gets that moment I promise I'm not trying to be all "I told you so" here, but it's what I've been saying in these threads for two years- patience. Naito was always going to get that win over Okada in the Dome sooner than later, and in my opinion the loss two years ago made the match this year all the more better. I never felt like Gedo ever gave up on Naito entirely or anything, and I feel the plan was legitimately always that he'd get one over Okada eventually, but I get how frustrating a wait it was, and the payoff was bigger than I could have even hoped for.
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Post by MrElijah on Jan 11, 2020 13:17:23 GMT -5
Well this is a little bit eerie. When you finally beat the Final Boss.
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Post by BRAINFADE on Jan 11, 2020 13:23:02 GMT -5
I promise I'm not trying to be all "I told you so" here, but it's what I've been saying in these threads for two years- patience. Naito was always going to get that win over Okada in the Dome sooner than later, and in my opinion the loss two years ago made the match this year all the more better. I never felt like Gedo ever gave up on Naito entirely or anything, and I feel the plan was legitimately always that he'd get one over Okada eventually, but I get how frustrating a wait it was, and the payoff was bigger than I could have even hoped for. I get that the wait was frustrating, but it was equally frustrating seeing people flipping their lid about Naito's booking as though this was WWE when just a little patience and foresight would tell you what the plan was. Gedo has always been willing to play the long game with his booking, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he had this double Dome/double title idea in his head for Naito when he had him lose to Okada two years ago.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 11, 2020 13:31:32 GMT -5
I’m sorry I was drunk as shit and annoying and basically ex communicado myself from posting again, but shit Naito winning is gonna go down as such a historic moment and I love it. Of everyone in NJPW history he gets that moment I promise I'm not trying to be all "I told you so" here, but it's what I've been saying in these threads for two years- patience. Naito was always going to get that win over Okada in the Dome sooner than later, and in my opinion the loss two years ago made the match this year all the more better. That really don't change the fact he should have put the title on Naito at his hottest two years ago. BUT in saying that despite the L and Naito basically spinning his wheels all of 2018, he remained the most popular guy in NJPW. The loss enhanced the win and Gedo has a great talent for weaving together stories and making it whole so it ended up as a net positive but him giving Naito his due and in the process making history is the ultimate story ender. This ended up being a better story ending than it would have been 2 years ago
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 11, 2020 13:47:41 GMT -5
I promise I'm not trying to be all "I told you so" here, but it's what I've been saying in these threads for two years- patience. Naito was always going to get that win over Okada in the Dome sooner than later, and in my opinion the loss two years ago made the match this year all the more better. That really don't change the fact he should have put the title on Naito at his hottest two years ago. BUT in saying that despite the L and Naito basically spinning his wheels all of 2018, he remained the most popular guy in NJPW. The loss enhanced the win and Gedo has a great talent for weaving together stories and making it whole so it ended up as a net positive but him giving Naito his due and in the process making history is the ultimate story ender. This ended up being a better story ending than it would have been 2 years ago I made a thread just now getting into it, but I think Naito also had the problem of the 6 star match buzz with Omega/Okada, and Naito was absolutely the bigger star in Japan, but with western ambitions, he was probably going to take a backseat to that eventually. If he won at WK 12, he probably doesn't keep it long.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 11, 2020 15:50:30 GMT -5
That really don't change the fact he should have put the title on Naito at his hottest two years ago. BUT in saying that despite the L and Naito basically spinning his wheels all of 2018, he remained the most popular guy in NJPW. The loss enhanced the win and Gedo has a great talent for weaving together stories and making it whole so it ended up as a net positive but him giving Naito his due and in the process making history is the ultimate story ender. This ended up being a better story ending than it would have been 2 years ago I made a thread just now getting into it, but I think Naito also had the problem of the 6 star match buzz with Omega/Okada, and Naito was absolutely the bigger star in Japan, but with western ambitions, he was probably going to take a backseat to that eventually. If he won at WK 12, he probably doesn't keep it long. He's probably not keeping it long now, either.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 11, 2020 15:51:55 GMT -5
I made a thread just now getting into it, but I think Naito also had the problem of the 6 star match buzz with Omega/Okada, and Naito was absolutely the bigger star in Japan, but with western ambitions, he was probably going to take a backseat to that eventually. If he won at WK 12, he probably doesn't keep it long. He's probably not keeping it long now, either. I feel like he at least gets a few months, maybe until Dominion or something. IC belt, I'd be considerably more worried about.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 11, 2020 15:56:51 GMT -5
He's probably not keeping it long now, either. I feel like he at least gets a few months, maybe until Dominion or something. IC belt, I'd be considerably more worried about. I do think he survives KENTA, but from there, it depends on who the next man up is.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 11, 2020 16:10:50 GMT -5
They were originally an Inokism revival group, but now they're just a bunch of goofballs (including Okada) and Ishii because why not There was the match at New Year's Dash after WK 13 where Goto, Ishii and Ospreay just went out and kicked the crap out of their opponents, I remember Kushida was one of them. Kind of felt like CHAOS going back to their roots and maybe those three were going to start their own thing within the group, but that ended up going no where. Yeah, especially following that brutal Ospreay/Ibushi NEVER match at least year's WK it really seemed like we were headed toward some kind of heelish shakeup that way (even referenced in official English language NJPW video overviews of CHAOS narrated by Kevin Kelly), but if I had to wager I'd guess that KUSHIDA leaving made them reshuffle and ensure that Ospreay stayed the top junior babyface for 2019 until they could get Hiromu back and they could finish the mini-rebuild they did of the division they seemed to begin around late 2018 when Ishimori arrived. That said, for all the jokes that could be made about it Gedo and company do tend to book with long memories, and will sometimes take something that happened like that and put it in their back pocket, allowing them to revisit it should they feel they need to. Maybe they don't feel that right now, but I figure it remains a possibility.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 11, 2020 16:42:16 GMT -5
He's probably not keeping it long now, either. I feel like he at least gets a few months, maybe until Dominion or something. IC belt, I'd be considerably more worried about. Dominion is perfect IC belt I think he losses as soon as next month. He doesn't need that belt long and i'm a bit surprised they are treating it something like the Undisputed title with him defending both against KENTA Gedo loves his Western wrestling tho so I can see Naito getting an unfair night at some point with him having to wrestle back to back. He losses the IC title but keeps the IWGP title ala Seth when he lost the US title and kept the WWE title
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 11, 2020 16:50:40 GMT -5
I feel like he at least gets a few months, maybe until Dominion or something. IC belt, I'd be considerably more worried about. Dominion is perfect IC belt I think he losses as soon as next month. He doesn't need that belt long and i'm a bit surprised they are treating it something like the Undisputed title with him defending both against KENTA Gedo loves his Western wrestling tho so I can see Naito getting an unfair night at some point with him having to wrestle back to back. He losses the IC title but keeps the IWGP title ala Seth when he lost the US title and kept the WWE title Guessing it serves two purposes. One, he likely gets a successful defense out of both, making him look like less of a chump if he doesn't keep it going long. Two, I imagine they want to let it play out for a little, just so people can come see him as double champ for some shows.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 11, 2020 17:26:10 GMT -5
I’m sorry I was drunk as shit and annoying and basically ex communicado myself from posting again, but shit Naito winning is gonna go down as such a historic moment and I love it. Of everyone in NJPW history he gets that moment I promise I'm not trying to be all "I told you so" here, but it's what I've been saying in these threads for two years- patience. Naito was always going to get that win over Okada in the Dome sooner than later, and in my opinion the loss two years ago made the match this year all the more better. Tbh you should, I’d do the same to you lol. In all honesty I’m glad we both get to walk away happy. BUT if you can allow me one small bitterness—I do not think this was a planned story at all. Fans of Gedo’s booking often benefit from “well bad thing happened but what if a good thing happened later?” Mindset. I think the heartbreak and emotional investment made this win the ultimate one, but I just think he can’t do this with every situation. Naito is a special story, but like...do Sanada, ibushi, Ospreay, Hiromu, Shingo etc need decade journeys ? Who knows maybe I get proved wrong again
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 11, 2020 17:29:13 GMT -5
I promise I'm not trying to be all "I told you so" here, but it's what I've been saying in these threads for two years- patience. Naito was always going to get that win over Okada in the Dome sooner than later, and in my opinion the loss two years ago made the match this year all the more better. Tbh you should, I’d do the same to you lol. In all honesty I’m glad we both get to walk away happy. BUT if you can allow me one small bitterness—I do not think this was a planned story at all. Fans of Gedo’s booking often benefit from “well bad thing happened but what if a good thing happened later?” Mindset. I think the heartbreak and emotional investment made this win the ultimate one, but I just think he can’t do this with every situation. Naito is a special story, but like...do Sanada, ibushi, Ospreay, Hiromu, Shingo etc need decade journeys ? Who knows maybe I get proved wrong again I wonder if we'll ever know for sure, or if Gedo has no intention of ever sharing his side of things once he's done. I do think he seems to be a guy who likes to keep a lot of balls in the air when he juggles, he's just not a dumb asshole about it like Russo, who lost interest in most of them and let them hit the ground.
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Post by BRAINFADE on Jan 11, 2020 19:40:36 GMT -5
I promise I'm not trying to be all "I told you so" here, but it's what I've been saying in these threads for two years- patience. Naito was always going to get that win over Okada in the Dome sooner than later, and in my opinion the loss two years ago made the match this year all the more better. Tbh you should, I’d do the same to you lol. In all honesty I’m glad we both get to walk away happy. BUT if you can allow me one small bitterness—I do not think this was a planned story at all. Fans of Gedo’s booking often benefit from “well bad thing happened but what if a good thing happened later?” Mindset. I think the heartbreak and emotional investment made this win the ultimate one, but I just think he can’t do this with every situation. Naito is a special story, but like...do Sanada, ibushi, Ospreay, Hiromu, Shingo etc need decade journeys ? Who knows maybe I get proved wrong again I think in general, booking wrestling relies heavily on capitalising on happenstance- making the best of what fate hands you. For example, the initial Naito push in 2013. New Japan fans did not take to the Stardust Genius, which led to Naito/Okada getting voted out of the WK8 main event. No way they planned for that. But a good booker knows how to roll with the punches, and Gedo did that superbly with Naito, to the point where he is the most popular wrestler he has. But I disagree with you in saying that the loss two years ago wasn't planned with the win this year in mind. Gedo without question had this two night show in mind when he booked WK 12, and wanted to come back with the rematch when he could put 70,000 in the building over two nights. Like I said before, Naito losing two years ago played in so perfectly into him beating Okada to become double champion. It worked so well, both storywise and business-wise.
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Post by BRAINFADE on Jan 11, 2020 19:43:39 GMT -5
Tbh you should, I’d do the same to you lol. In all honesty I’m glad we both get to walk away happy. BUT if you can allow me one small bitterness—I do not think this was a planned story at all. Fans of Gedo’s booking often benefit from “well bad thing happened but what if a good thing happened later?” Mindset. I think the heartbreak and emotional investment made this win the ultimate one, but I just think he can’t do this with every situation. Naito is a special story, but like...do Sanada, ibushi, Ospreay, Hiromu, Shingo etc need decade journeys ? Who knows maybe I get proved wrong again I wonder if we'll ever know for sure, or if Gedo has no intention of ever sharing his side of things once he's done. I do think he seems to be a guy who likes to keep a lot of balls in the air when he juggles, he's just not a dumb asshole about it like Russo, who lost interest in most of them and let them hit the ground. To be fair, if I were Gedo I would never be telling either way. Let us have a bit of that mystery as a talking point. And that is why the dude is a first ballot hall of fame booker.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 11, 2020 20:30:14 GMT -5
Tbh you should, I’d do the same to you lol. In all honesty I’m glad we both get to walk away happy. BUT if you can allow me one small bitterness—I do not think this was a planned story at all. Fans of Gedo’s booking often benefit from “well bad thing happened but what if a good thing happened later?” Mindset. I think the heartbreak and emotional investment made this win the ultimate one, but I just think he can’t do this with every situation. Naito is a special story, but like...do Sanada, ibushi, Ospreay, Hiromu, Shingo etc need decade journeys ? Who knows maybe I get proved wrong again I think in general, booking wrestling relies heavily on capitalising on happenstance- making the best of what fate hands you. For example, the initial Naito push in 2013. New Japan fans did not take to the Stardust Genius, which led to Naito/Okada getting voted out of the WK8 main event. No way they planned for that. But a good booker knows how to roll with the punches, and Gedo did that superbly with Naito, to the point where he is the most popular wrestler he has. But I disagree with you in saying that the loss two years ago wasn't planned with the win this year in mind. Gedo without question had this two night show in mind when he booked WK 12, and wanted to come back with the rematch when he could put 70,000 in the building over two nights. Like I said before, Naito losing two years ago played in so perfectly into him beating Okada to become double champion. It worked so well, both storywise and business-wise. If you follow this pattern Naito mains against Okada this year at WK. Are you ok with that?
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 11, 2020 20:32:44 GMT -5
I think in general, booking wrestling relies heavily on capitalising on happenstance- making the best of what fate hands you. For example, the initial Naito push in 2013. New Japan fans did not take to the Stardust Genius, which led to Naito/Okada getting voted out of the WK8 main event. No way they planned for that. But a good booker knows how to roll with the punches, and Gedo did that superbly with Naito, to the point where he is the most popular wrestler he has. But I disagree with you in saying that the loss two years ago wasn't planned with the win this year in mind. Gedo without question had this two night show in mind when he booked WK 12, and wanted to come back with the rematch when he could put 70,000 in the building over two nights. Like I said before, Naito losing two years ago played in so perfectly into him beating Okada to become double champion. It worked so well, both storywise and business-wise. If you follow this pattern Naito mains against Okada this year at WK. Are you ok with that? And losses to Okada
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Post by BRAINFADE on Jan 11, 2020 20:37:36 GMT -5
I think in general, booking wrestling relies heavily on capitalising on happenstance- making the best of what fate hands you. For example, the initial Naito push in 2013. New Japan fans did not take to the Stardust Genius, which led to Naito/Okada getting voted out of the WK8 main event. No way they planned for that. But a good booker knows how to roll with the punches, and Gedo did that superbly with Naito, to the point where he is the most popular wrestler he has. But I disagree with you in saying that the loss two years ago wasn't planned with the win this year in mind. Gedo without question had this two night show in mind when he booked WK 12, and wanted to come back with the rematch when he could put 70,000 in the building over two nights. Like I said before, Naito losing two years ago played in so perfectly into him beating Okada to become double champion. It worked so well, both storywise and business-wise. If you follow this pattern Naito mains against Okada this year at WK. Are you ok with that? After how amazing the match was this year, hell yes I'm up for another one.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 11, 2020 20:47:12 GMT -5
If you follow this pattern Naito mains against Okada this year at WK. Are you ok with that? After how amazing the match was this year, hell yes I'm up for another one. I don't think we get Okada/Naito at WK for probably another 2 years I do expect them to have a regular matchup in the G1 now or something to that effect. They've basically wrestled one on one a total of 4 times over the last 5 years all over the IWGP title
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 11, 2020 20:55:33 GMT -5
After how amazing the match was this year, hell yes I'm up for another one. I don't think we get Okada/Naito at WK for probably another 2 years I do expect them to have a regular matchup in the G1 now or something to that effect. They've basically wrestled one on one a total of 4 times over the last 5 years all over the IWGP title It’ll happen in the next two years. Particularly after they try to make Sanada or Ospreay main and get bad results.
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