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Post by mauled on Apr 8, 2020 12:15:20 GMT -5
Nope. Dr.Death was never going to get that over in WWE at that stage of his career. Russo on the documentary was right. His best days were clearly behind him. Tbh he wasn't Main Event material. Maybe stick him in a feud for the IC belt with Trips or Owen perhaps but no way was he Austin level. I feel sorry for Bart Gunn, this could have lead to an IC Title push perhaps of they'd wanted it too. But Vince and JR clearly didn't like the fact he won the shoot fight they'd put him in.
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Post by An Dog On An Skateboard on Apr 8, 2020 12:36:29 GMT -5
Nope. Dr.Death was never going to get that over in WWE at that stage of his career. I think this is the right answer. Even in his prime in the late eighties and early nineties I think he probably had very limited drawing power in the WWF, he didn't have a big enough personality and I'm not sure how well his style would have got over. By the time he got brought in he was past his best and I suspect had probably been out of the spotlight too long in North America for his comeback to really be meaningful, and had never really been a big deal in the States anyway.
I don't know if it would have mattered by this point, but I know he had a past with drugs too (and may or may not have still been using) and had a couple of drug arrests under his belt. Perhaps not someone a company with as much mainstream popularity as the WWF had at the time would want to have associated with their brand.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Apr 8, 2020 12:39:13 GMT -5
Again he would have if he had been booked correctly. He was four years older than Austin & 3 years younger than Bret Hart, who had been a main eventer for them the year prior. Also he was new to the territory & properly promoted he could have been a main even heel. Hell look at Chris Jericho today.He's what? 48 & a main event guy in AEW. Williams was 38 at the time. Yet people are acting as if he was ancient.
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Post by sungod2020 on Apr 8, 2020 12:51:35 GMT -5
People here have laid out all the correct points, but one thing that hasn't been brought up(unless there was something I glossed over) was the main event scene during that time was crowded anyway. Besides "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, you had him tied up in a feud with Kane and The Undertaker. Rock, HHH, and Mick Foley were also on the rise. Besides all these guys having far more personality and charisma than Dr. Death anyway, where would he fit in the main event equation?
If you want to be nice(as others mentioned), he could be Vince's hired gun for a few weeks towards The Texas Rattlesnake and a one-off match with him on RAW, though TBH, Big Bossman played that role just fine, and he fit in well in that era far better than Steve Williams could've.
I just don't think there was any room for Dr. Death on the top of the card. Maybe if he sticks around in 1999, he could've played a role in the hardcore division, but to me, thats the ceiling for him.
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Post by sungod2020 on Apr 8, 2020 12:54:18 GMT -5
Again he would have if he had been booked correctly. He was four years older than Austin & 3 years younger than Bret Hart, who had been a main eventer for them the year prior. Also he was new to the territory & properly promoted he could have been a main even heel. Hell look at Chris Jericho today.He's what? 48 & a main event guy in AEW. Williams was 38 at the time. Yet people are acting as if he was ancient. I think the problem was, even without the Brawl For All, he wasn't a WWF-type wrestler. Especially in an era where you had to be more than just being a pro wrestler. His age might've not helped, but personality(or lack thereof) was his biggest hindrance. Same problem with Dan "The Beast" Severn during that time.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Apr 8, 2020 13:02:19 GMT -5
Again he would have if he had been booked correctly. He was four years older than Austin & 3 years younger than Bret Hart, who had been a main eventer for them the year prior. Also he was new to the territory & properly promoted he could have been a main even heel. Hell look at Chris Jericho today.He's what? 48 & a main event guy in AEW. Williams was 38 at the time. Yet people are acting as if he was ancient. I think the problem was, even without the Brawl For All, he wasn't a WWF-type wrestler. Especially in an era where you had to be more than just being a pro wrestler. His age might've not helped, but personality(or lack thereof) was his biggest hindrance. Same problem with Dan "The Beast" Severn during that time. That's why you put him with a mouthpiece, or you put him with Mr.McMahon as the talent to destroy Austin. You get the Oklahoma Stampede over, you have him layout Austin, you have Austin come back & you have match #1 on ppv. You do a DQ finish, you do Match #2 Austin wins but is laid out by Vince's goons, you do Match #3 with a gimmick (cage, last man standing, etc) & Austin beats him clean. Doc moves down the card and pays the favor to people that put him over on the way to Austin.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 8, 2020 13:03:09 GMT -5
To be honest anything you were gonna get from Dr.Death was already gonna be done better at that time by Ken Shamrock anyway.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Apr 8, 2020 13:20:15 GMT -5
Wouldn't he also have been a terrible choice to wrestle Steve 'my neck doesn't exist' Austin? His moves were all stuff suplexes, right That was his calling card, but he's also the guy Lance Storm has said he would allow to punch his son in the face because he was so gentle in the ring. As to the main topic...I think he could have gotten over if they were patient. Given that two years later, Chris Benoit was able to get over as a tough, no-nonsense guy because he could work like hell and looked like someone who could kick your ass - I think that Dr. Death just working his ass off for half a year to a year in the midcard could have gotten over. But then, he would have been doing so in the Russo era, where the Big Show was pretty much ruined as a monster within a month; I don't think that patience would have been there. So, could he have? Yeah, probably. Would he have? Nope, because he was not in an environment that would have played to his strengths.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 8, 2020 13:20:35 GMT -5
Even if you have him great booking I don't think Williams gets over to a huge degree in 98. You might get a one month title shot program, which fine, but I don't think it was any great travesty that didn't happen. I liked him back in the mid 80s, but even back then he was never the type that was going to be a megastar.
Dude was tough as hell, but charisma and looks wise he was more like your uncle who is a tough lumber yard worker or something. That's only going so far, even with a mouthpiece in that particular era.
He was sort of Duggan without Duggan's loveable persona. He was better in ring than Hacksaw, but the rest is negligible.
And again, if you're pushing a dude cuz he's badass, Shamrock was better in every way.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Apr 8, 2020 13:22:21 GMT -5
Wouldn't he also have been a terrible choice to wrestle Steve 'my neck doesn't exist' Austin? His moves were all stuff suplexes, right That was his calling card, but he's also the guy Lance Storm has said he would allow to punch his son in the face because he was so gentle in the ring. Wasn't that Hogan?
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Post by An Dog On An Skateboard on Apr 8, 2020 13:56:14 GMT -5
Even if you have him great booking I don't think Williams gets over to a huge degree in 98. You might get a one month title shot program, which fine, but I don't think it was any great travesty that didn't happen. I liked him back in the mid 80s, but even back then he was never the type that was going to be a megastar. Dude was tough as hell, but charisma and looks wise he was more like your uncle who is a tough lumber yard worker or something. That's only going so far, even with a mouthpiece in that particular era. I was thinking about this just now, and I'd sort of liken him to Scott Norton, who wasn't a total mug in the ring and had all the tools to be big in Japan where they like burly American brawlers, but just wasn't a good fit for the main event scene in the States. You could give him a manager, or a catchy nickname, or put him in a programme with the top star in the company, but it wasn't going to compensate for the fact that he just didn't have the required personality.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Apr 8, 2020 14:05:13 GMT -5
Why were these guys, who wrestled and were athletes, tearing all their ligaments like tissue paper in a shoot fight?
Was it just 'roids?
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Post by lildude8218 on Apr 8, 2020 14:23:02 GMT -5
Maybe if they had let him do the "Five Million Dollar Man" gimmick sooner he would've gotten over
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Post by cornettesracket on Apr 8, 2020 14:24:59 GMT -5
It didn't ruin it as a whole but probably hastened the end of his WWF run.
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Post by An Dog On An Skateboard on Apr 8, 2020 14:34:32 GMT -5
Why were these guys, who wrestled and were athletes, tearing all their ligaments like tissue paper in a shoot fight? Was it just 'roids? Probably a combination of that, and the wrestlers not being adequately prepared for the kind of strain that legitimate fighting puts on the muscles. There wouldn't have been much downtime between fights, and they just wouldn't have been physically up to the things that shoot fighting/boxing required of them. Just another reason why it was a f***ing awful idea, really.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 8, 2020 14:35:52 GMT -5
Nah being really broken down was what killed him.
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Post by Aceorton on Apr 8, 2020 14:49:03 GMT -5
I think the problem was, even without the Brawl For All, he wasn't a WWF-type wrestler. Especially in an era where you had to be more than just being a pro wrestler. His age might've not helped, but personality(or lack thereof) was his biggest hindrance. Same problem with Dan "The Beast" Severn during that time. That's why you put him with a mouthpiece, or you put him with Mr.McMahon as the talent to destroy Austin. You get the Oklahoma Stampede over, you have him layout Austin, you have Austin come back & you have match #1 on ppv. You do a DQ finish, you do Match #2 Austin wins but is laid out by Vince's goons, you do Match #3 with a gimmick (cage, last man standing, etc) & Austin beats him clean. Doc moves down the card and pays the favor to people that put him over on the way to Austin. This is exactly what I envision. You don't build the company around him. Just give him a three-month program, basically. Doc would have been a great first stab at Vince hand-picking a "corporate challenger" to mess with Austin, with JR belly-aching about how Doc sold out and this isn't the guy he's known for all these years. Let Vince do all the talking. Doc is just an angry beast who steamrolls people, and they talk up how unstoppable he was in Japan. When Austin wins their mini-feud, Vince blames Doc and kicks him to the curb in favor of Attempt No. 2, the Rock, and Doc gets a few months of trying to get back at Vince and his goons. Aligning him with Vader or Shamrock could have been a good use for him, or having him act as a mentor for Bradshaw, who seemed to have no direction for most of that year.
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Apr 8, 2020 15:25:59 GMT -5
Again he would have if he had been booked correctly. He was four years older than Austin & 3 years younger than Bret Hart, who had been a main eventer for them the year prior. Also he was new to the territory & properly promoted he could have been a main even heel. Hell look at Chris Jericho today.He's what? 48 & a main event guy in AEW. Williams was 38 at the time. Yet people are acting as if he was ancient. I think the problem was, even without the Brawl For All, he wasn't a WWF-type wrestler. Especially in an era where you had to be more than just being a pro wrestler. His age might've not helped, but personality(or lack thereof) was his biggest hindrance. Same problem with Dan "The Beast" Severn during that time. Ken Shamrock at least had his Dangerous Man gimmick that helped him stand out, aside from being a MMA tough guy like Severn was.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Apr 8, 2020 16:16:38 GMT -5
Dr. Death is one of those guys who got mythologized by circumstances and what ifs. He had a bunch of traditional wrestling business people certain he'd be a hit, and because drastic circumstances kept him from being one, he gets to be talked about as if he definitely would have been if not for (X). Sort of like how you can't talk broadly about Crockett in retrospectives without going into Magnum T.A. and his accident; who knows if he would have had a big or even noteworthy reign, but the fact he didn't is something that's lionized him in history and let anyone who believed he'd be a star talk up how he could have been a star. A broken down Dr. Death would not have been a star, but Cornette and Ross give plenty of interviews and show up all the time so they're always able to sing the could-have-beens on him. Given how people like Ross and Cornette talk about Dr. Death, it's almost like all these people who were smart to the wrestling business bought into their own kayfabe when it came to this shoot-worked event of the Brawl for All and wrestling's dopey alpha-male tough guy bullshit.
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Post by 06vwgti on Apr 8, 2020 16:40:12 GMT -5
I think the problem was, even without the Brawl For All, he wasn't a WWF-type wrestler. Especially in an era where you had to be more than just being a pro wrestler. His age might've not helped, but personality(or lack thereof) was his biggest hindrance. Same problem with Dan "The Beast" Severn during that time. Ken Shamrock at least had his Dangerous Man gimmick that helped him stand out, aside from being a MMA tough guy like Severn was. Plus he didn't look like Tom Selleck
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