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Post by kingoftheindies on May 10, 2020 22:18:45 GMT -5
I continue to enjoy the last dance even if it's nothing ground breaking. I do find it interesting hearing more from the teammates. From what I've heard Horace Grant has told people that was supposedly cut from the documentary and from what BJ Armstrong said some don't feel it was justified while others seemed to hate it in the moment but they understood why Michael did what he did.
Honestly the last couple episodes as well as stories you hear from others from the 90's I actually think this brings up the question of if the bigger strain for players today would be the mental side rather than the physical side? I struggle to really see many of the top players today being able to deal with the berating they would take in practice...
So I really am going to ask, which players if any could mentally hang with the guys of the 90's?
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Post by cabbageboy on May 10, 2020 22:33:23 GMT -5
See, I thought Ep. 7 was brilliant. It was almost like Jekyll and Hyde or something, showing a Jordan that lost his dad to a senseless armed robbery/murder and going to play baseball, but also showing these crazed practice moments that made him look pretty unflattering. The one major flaw in Ep. 7 however was not discussing the notorious Hue Hollins call on Pippen in that 1994 Knicks series (the Bulls likely win the series in 6 otherwise). That was really the key moment in that series that led to the Bulls losing, with the "Pippen refuses to go in" moment being a black eye for him in that moment but had little overall bearing on the series.
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Perd
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Leslie needs to butt out for fear of receiving The Bunghole Buster
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Post by Perd on May 10, 2020 23:31:41 GMT -5
My dad took me to see MJ play for the Birmingham Barons. Back when Memphis has a AA team named the Chicks. It was a total circus. Normally, it was a buy a ticket, sit where you want type thing. But not that night.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 11, 2020 2:34:10 GMT -5
I continue to enjoy the last dance even if it's nothing ground breaking. I do find it interesting hearing more from the teammates. From what I've heard Horace Grant has told people that was supposedly cut from the documentary and from what BJ Armstrong said some don't feel it was justified while others seemed to hate it in the moment but they understood why Michael did what he did. Honestly the last couple episodes as well as stories you hear from others from the 90's I actually think this brings up the question of if the bigger strain for players today would be the mental side rather than the physical side? I struggle to really see many of the top players today being able to deal with the berating they would take in practice... So I really am going to ask, which players if any could mentally hang with the guys of the 90's? If we are talking current day players, LeBron as he is now could. He was mentally weak up until his 2nd Cavs run and now that doesn't phase him much or at all Steph Curry, Russ Westbrook, Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler are the other ones off top of my head. Those guys either don't give a f*** or don't care. Russ and Butler thrive on that. Kawhi don't give a f***. Steph and Klay been through it at the highest level in this era
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Post by cabbageboy on May 11, 2020 10:41:04 GMT -5
Finished the 8th episode this morning and I have to say they kinda buried Shawn Kemp during the 1996 Finals discussion. It was all about Payton, but really it was Kemp that went for 23 and 10 in that series. As a matter of fact shouldn't Kemp be in the Hall of Fame? The Sonics back then had a bunch of Hall of Very Good type guys: Detlef Schrempf, Hersey Hawkins, Sam Perkins, etc.
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by BRV on May 11, 2020 13:43:25 GMT -5
Episodes 7 and 8 were what I've been waiting for the whole series to be. An insightful, honest, relentless look into Michael Jordan and the 1997-98 Chicago Bulls. No punches were pulled, they were totally honest, and it was exactly what I've been waiting four weeks for "The Last Dance" to become.
In particular, I thought Episode 7 was the best of the series. It was a dive into the most devastating moment of Michael Jordan's life - his father's murder - and his subsequent decision to retire from basketball. But they didn't shy away from the questions surrounding his retirement, the allegations of a hushed suspension, and rumors about the murder being tied to Michael's gambling. There were also some great stories I never knew about, like how Michael's retirement began spreading during an ALCS game in Chicago, totally overshadowing the White Sox' playoff game, or how he had to play in Birmingham because they were the only White Sox farm team that had the media facilities capable of handling Jordan's arrival.
I thought they got a little rose-colored with his baseball tenure. The hardest thing to do in sports is hit a baseball, so yes, it's impressive that 30-year-old Michael Jordan could hit .202 after not having played baseball since he was a kid, but let's not pretend that he was inches away from the big leagues. A .202 hitter is still a .202 hitter, whether it's Michael Jordan or some scrub named Jordan Michaels. The only reason MJ would've made it to Comiskey Park is because of his name, and given how competitive he is, I don't think that's something he would've wanted.
And his competitive streak, man, these episodes showed us how Michael is a whole different breed. That line about how "'Well, he wasn't really a nice guy. He may have been a tyrant.' Well, that's you, because you never won anything," just had me smiling from ear-to-ear. That's the competitive edge I want to see back in the NBA. Enough with the jersey-swapping, AAU, super-team-forming, buddy-buddy stuff. I want more Michael Jordans. Same goes for when he's in the locker room, holding a baseball bat, chomping a cigar and criticizing B.J. Armstrong for only talking s**t when he's in the lead. That edge is gone from the game and I hope today's players watching "The Last Dance" are taking notes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2020 14:01:46 GMT -5
My dad took me to see MJ play for the Birmingham Barons. Back when Memphis has a AA team named the Chicks. It was a total circus. Normally, it was a buy a ticket, sit where you want type thing. But not that night. 1994 in the Southern League was a weird year. Jordan playing, Nashville had two baseball teams.
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Ben Wyatt
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Are You Gonna Go My Way?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on May 11, 2020 14:02:29 GMT -5
And his competitive streak, man, these episodes showed us how Michael is a whole different breed. That line about how "'Well, he wasn't really a nice guy. He may have been a tyrant.' Well, that's you, because you never won anything," just had me smiling from ear-to-ear. That's the competitive edge I want to see back in the NBA. Enough with the jersey-swapping, AAU, super-team-forming, buddy-buddy stuff. I want more Michael Jordans. Same goes for when he's in the locker room, holding a baseball bat, chomping a cigar and criticizing B.J. Armstrong for only talking s**t when he's in the lead. That edge is gone from the game and I hope today's players watching "The Last Dance" are taking notes. And that, kids, is why Jordan will always be better than LeBron. LeBron is the best player of his generation, absolutely no question there, but he has never, and will never had Jordan's competitive spirit and drive. It's what makes Michael Jordan *Michael Jordan* and everyone else...well...... everyone else
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 11, 2020 14:19:17 GMT -5
Finished the 8th episode this morning and I have to say they kinda buried Shawn Kemp during the 1996 Finals discussion. It was all about Payton, but really it was Kemp that went for 23 and 10 in that series. As a matter of fact shouldn't Kemp be in the Hall of Fame? The Sonics back then had a bunch of Hall of Very Good type guys: Detlef Schrempf, Hersey Hawkins, Sam Perkins, etc. Nah, Kemp could not sustain or rise his game to where it needed to be His numbers at his best were good but not outstanding. Even once he got to the Cavs and had more free reign it is not like he turned it up to a different level
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Post by cabbageboy on May 11, 2020 14:52:33 GMT -5
I mean Tracy McGrady is in the HOF and never made it past the first round. First ballot too, no less. To me Kemp was a dominant player for the bulk of the 1990s and that is enough to get someone in the HOF. Admittedly he did not age well once he hit age 30. I think Kemp is at least a "Frankie Frisch gets his teammates and friends in via the Veteran's Committee" level Hall of Famer.
If there's a big overall problem I have with Jordan from watching this it would be that I don't feel like he has any respect whatsoever for even his Hall of Fame level opponents. I get his hatred for Isiah and the Bad Boy Pistons, that's well documented and to some extent justified given the video packages of them constantly gooning him. But it seems like if you aren't Magic or Bird then MJ just has no respect for you. Has there been a single time where Jordan has put over anyone he faced as being a great player? He's been pretty dismissive of Clyde Drexler as being this pretender to the throne and a jobber (Drexler is a 10 time All Star and 5 time All NBA, obvious HOFer). He never really put over Barkley either, mostly just noting his disdain for Charles getting MVP in 1993 instead of him. Last night he openly laughed at Gary Payton's comments about wishing he could have guarded Jordan for the entire 1996 series. He had no time for Ewing either, but again in that case there was bad blood between the Bulls and Knicks. Will he bury Miller, Stockton, and Malone in the last 2 episodes?
In a weird way the guy I most feel sorry for after watching 8 episodes is in fact Sir Charles. In the episode on the 1993 Finals he sadly admitted for the first time he really knew there was one guy out there better than him, and it was Jordan.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 11, 2020 15:29:41 GMT -5
I mean Tracy McGrady is in the HOF and never made it past the first round. First ballot too, no less. To me Kemp was a dominant player for the bulk of the 1990s and that is enough to get someone in the HOF. Admittedly he did not age well once he hit age 30. I think Kemp is at least a "Frankie Frisch gets his teammates and friends in via the Veteran's Committee" level Hall of Famer. Tracy was THE MAN on his teams and in the argument for being the man in the league at his best. While he did not have the playoff success, he really never had a team like Seattle until he got with the Rockets and unlucky for them both Yao and T-Mac started to falter Let's average out Kemp best years which is 92-93 to 99-00. 8 years PPG - 18.65, RPG - 10.14, FG - 56%, BLK -1.4, STL - 1.4 Those are not HOF numbers. Those are very good numbers. I don't feel like averaging Tracy numbers but over an 8 year stretch in terms of scoring he put up dominant numbers and was an MVP candidate. Tracy is one of the best overall scorers in NBA history
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Post by sfvega on May 12, 2020 6:22:02 GMT -5
I mean Tracy McGrady is in the HOF and never made it past the first round. First ballot too, no less. To me Kemp was a dominant player for the bulk of the 1990s and that is enough to get someone in the HOF. Admittedly he did not age well once he hit age 30. I think Kemp is at least a "Frankie Frisch gets his teammates and friends in via the Veteran's Committee" level Hall of Famer. Tracy was THE MAN on his teams and in the argument for being the man in the league at his best. While he did not have the playoff success, he really never had a team like Seattle until he got with the Rockets and unlucky for them both Yao and T-Mac started to falter Let's average out Kemp best years which is 92-93 to 99-00. 8 years PPG - 18.65, RPG - 10.14, FG - 56%, BLK -1.4, STL - 1.4 Those are not HOF numbers. Those are very good numbers. I don't feel like averaging Tracy numbers but over an 8 year stretch in terms of scoring he put up dominant numbers and was an MVP candidate. Tracy is one of the best overall scorers in NBA history Tracy over his peak 8 season averaged 26.3/6.4/5.5 with 1.4 STLs and 0.9 BLKs on 43.6% from the field, 34% from 3, and a bit surprisingly only 75% from the line. I thought he was a better FT shooter than that. I wouldn't mind Kemp in the hall. But I do think that he won't get the benefit of the doubt in that he just got overweight and out of shape. It wasn't like Amare or Gilbert Arenas who blow out a knee and are never the same. His downfall was more avoidable.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on May 12, 2020 10:08:46 GMT -5
Just wanted to say that Shannon Sharpe is a f***ing idiot for riding Lebron’s nuts. If Jordan was playing today he would average 40.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 12, 2020 10:30:01 GMT -5
I mean Tracy McGrady is in the HOF and never made it past the first round. First ballot too, no less. To me Kemp was a dominant player for the bulk of the 1990s and that is enough to get someone in the HOF. Admittedly he did not age well once he hit age 30. I think Kemp is at least a "Frankie Frisch gets his teammates and friends in via the Veteran's Committee" level Hall of Famer. If there's a big overall problem I have with Jordan from watching this it would be that I don't feel like he has any respect whatsoever for even his Hall of Fame level opponents. I get his hatred for Isiah and the Bad Boy Pistons, that's well documented and to some extent justified given the video packages of them constantly gooning him. But it seems like if you aren't Magic or Bird then MJ just has no respect for you. Has there been a single time where Jordan has put over anyone he faced as being a great player? He's been pretty dismissive of Clyde Drexler as being this pretender to the throne and a jobber (Drexler is a 10 time All Star and 5 time All NBA, obvious HOFer). He never really put over Barkley either, mostly just noting his disdain for Charles getting MVP in 1993 instead of him. Last night he openly laughed at Gary Payton's comments about wishing he could have guarded Jordan for the entire 1996 series. He had no time for Ewing either, but again in that case there was bad blood between the Bulls and Knicks. Will he bury Miller, Stockton, and Malone in the last 2 episodes? In a weird way the guy I most feel sorry for after watching 8 episodes is in fact Sir Charles. In the episode on the 1993 Finals he sadly admitted for the first time he really knew there was one guy out there better than him, and it was Jordan. I don't think he meant to be disrespectful, it's just that psychopathic need to be the best. Like for him, he NEEDS to be the best, and there can only be 1 person with that title. That's why anyone got anything over him, he'd obsessively train to specifically beat them. Drexler? He beat him, Barkley? He beat him, Payton? He beat him. Anyone who was treated as a threat by the media etc. He can't accept that, so he's never going to say it. But the fact that those people are guys he picked out, are guys he focused on being better than than, that is his respect, I'd look at his actions rather than his words.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 12, 2020 12:02:35 GMT -5
Tracy was THE MAN on his teams and in the argument for being the man in the league at his best. While he did not have the playoff success, he really never had a team like Seattle until he got with the Rockets and unlucky for them both Yao and T-Mac started to falter Let's average out Kemp best years which is 92-93 to 99-00. 8 years PPG - 18.65, RPG - 10.14, FG - 56%, BLK -1.4, STL - 1.4 Those are not HOF numbers. Those are very good numbers. I don't feel like averaging Tracy numbers but over an 8 year stretch in terms of scoring he put up dominant numbers and was an MVP candidate. Tracy is one of the best overall scorers in NBA history Tracy over his peak 8 season averaged 26.3/6.4/5.5 with 1.4 STLs and 0.9 BLKs on 43.6% from the field, 34% from 3, and a bit surprisingly only 75% from the line. I thought he was a better FT shooter than that. I wouldn't mind Kemp in the hall. But I do think that he won't get the benefit of the doubt in that he just got overweight and out of shape. It wasn't like Amare or Gilbert Arenas who blow out a knee and are never the same. His downfall was more avoidable. Yea, that's more so my point Kemp did have a healthy prime. He just didn't take care of himself on the backend to really continue to put those numbers up the way he could have. As fearful as Kemp was in his prime, he sadly finished up when you got some of the greatest Power Forwards in the game coming into their own like KG, Dirk, Duncan, etc... He has a borderline case for the hall and probably would got in if him and Payton stayed together
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Post by arrogantmodel on May 13, 2020 12:17:10 GMT -5
I remember stories of Shawn Kemp being illiterate and not being able to read or understand his contracts. And not being sure of how many kids he has, which can be anywhere from 7 to 11 kids with 6 to 9 different women.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 13, 2020 13:18:37 GMT -5
I remember stories of Shawn Kemp being illiterate and not being able to read or understand his contracts. And not being sure of how many kids he has, which can be anywhere from 7 to 11 kids with 6 to 9 different women. I think official count is 7 He's not Antonio Cromartie bad who has 14 children
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warden
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Post by warden on May 13, 2020 18:13:00 GMT -5
Man, how awkward was it to see jordan breakdown over guys that didn't want to play the way he played.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 13, 2020 18:18:13 GMT -5
Man, how awkward was it to see jordan breakdown over guys that didn't want to play the way he played. I wouldn't say it was awkward He was more so breaking down because that's the price of winning. He isn't going to be the most likable human being but that's what he sacrificed to win at all cost For better or worse, his desire to win is too strong
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on May 14, 2020 18:38:03 GMT -5
However many years later and I don't get Jerry Krause's game plan to tell everyone the 5x championship coach wasn't coming back during the damn season.
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