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Post by sfvega on May 4, 2020 7:38:12 GMT -5
I feel like the "Republicans buy shoes too" line is overblown. Everyone knows Jordan didn't get into really any divisive subjects. Neither did Jeter or A-Rod or Tom Brady, LeBron for the longest, etc etc. Guys are allowed to not be social change or political figures. Just because people want these guys to use their profile to enact change doesn't mean that they're obligated to. That's being entitled. I feel like that is just a weird stance to take; to call out guys for not doing something when someone else does. Like I'm not gonna see Zion pay for N.O. workers during the pandemic and be like "Well what is Damian Lillard doing?"
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Post by cabbageboy on May 4, 2020 8:39:12 GMT -5
Watching this again made me realize how much the Suns let that Game 6 get away from them. Up 4 with 46 seconds left and they couldn't get that win and force a Game 7 (which would have set all sorts of ratings records)? That era was heartbreak city if you were a fan of the Suns, especially given they blew a 2-0 lead vs. Houston in 1994 and even worse the 3-1 lead in 1995. After that they traded Majerle to Cleveland, Barkley left for Houston soon after, and the Suns didn't seriously contend again until the Nash era.
As far as Jordan goes, the sort of heated race politics of the 1960s/70s was on the wane by the time he got into the NBA. When he was a huge star in the late 80s through the 90s sports was more or less apolitical in a lot of ways. I just don't think Jordan was a particularly political person. In 1990 he was more focused on finally beating the Pistons and winning the title than he was Harvey Gantt vs. Jesse Helms in a NC Senate race. The "Republicans by shoes too" line sounds somewhat greedy and callous but if you look at the context of the era the NBA was hitting a crescendo during that time period and for once was drawing in quite a few white Republicans. Why alienate an audience that the NBA had spent a solid decade cultivating?
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 4, 2020 10:16:56 GMT -5
I feel like the "Republicans buy shoes too" line is overblown. Everyone knows Jordan didn't get into really any divisive subjects. Neither did Jeter or A-Rod or Tom Brady, LeBron for the longest, etc etc. Guys are allowed to not be social change or political figures. Just because people want these guys to use their profile to enact change doesn't mean that they're obligated to. That's being entitled. I feel like that is just a weird stance to take; to call out guys for not doing something when someone else does. Like I'm not gonna see Zion pay for N.O. workers during the pandemic and be like "Well what is Damian Lillard doing?" It is overblown You don't have to be a celebrity and an activist. They are not exclusive with each other and it is people trying to force their own views on you. Good for people that do take a stand and have a purpose but that's their prerogative. Jordan has always been a reclusive guy and doing nothing to hurt his bottom line and I can't be mad at that choice You shouldn't have to announce everything you do to the public, A guy like LeBron deserves a lot of credit for opening a school and being vocal about that but I don't care about his political affiliations or his opinions on world news. There is this clout around Ali but he got away with a lot of shit being a loud mouth and just saying shit with no consequences. The way he treated Joe Frazier is still a big f***ing shame
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on May 4, 2020 11:03:30 GMT -5
Yeah, it never made sense to me that you can talk about MJ being psychotically competitive and then say he would throw games because of gambling debts.
And MJ was worth somewhere around a skillion dollars (give or take), so how much in debt would he have to be that he couldn't pay back?
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on May 4, 2020 11:07:30 GMT -5
I give Draymond a ton of credit for changing himself up. Dude changed up his body and as said those 2 years they first contended are his prime Also i'm not going to get on Chuck too much. While out of shape, he was still putting up the same mins but less points. Hakeen was the focus and they needed Chuck like 2 years before as he was hitting the end by then. Chuck was 33 by the time he got to the Rockets and 35 by the time he was REALLY out of shape. He didn't show up there in horrible shape and actually looked a lot like he did in Phoenix. Once Pippen got there, he was a house. Lots of greats have aged poorly by then. Kemp, Webber, Brand, even Shaq near the end. Must have been something else to see Barkley and Oliver Miller at the buffet table with the Suns.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 4, 2020 11:23:54 GMT -5
Yeah, it never made sense to me that you can talk about MJ being psychotically competitive and then say he would throw games because of gambling debts. And MJ was worth somewhere around a skillion dollars (give or take), so how much in debt would he have to be that he couldn't pay back? MJ would go to Vegas and lose thousands of dollars in one afternoon if not millions. For a man as addicted to winning as he is, you really think he's going to walk away from a table when he's only a little behind. Him and Chuck were gambling bodies and Chuck has admitted himself to losing like $10 mill in a few years during that time He loves to golf and always bet on the course and there is a rumor that he lost $1 mill on one game. He went to Vegas and lost $5 mill in one afternoon. It's not that he couldn't put it back but more so people got on his ass about it and the NBA looked to have found evidence he was betting on games which was going to get him suspended
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 4, 2020 12:42:37 GMT -5
Yeah, it never made sense to me that you can talk about MJ being psychotically competitive and then say he would throw games because of gambling debts. And MJ was worth somewhere around a skillion dollars (give or take), so how much in debt would he have to be that he couldn't pay back? MJ would go to Vegas and lose thousands of dollars in one afternoon if not millions. For a man as addicted to winning as he is, you really think he's going to walk away from a table when he's only a little behind. Him and Chuck were gambling bodies and Chuck has admitted himself to losing like $10 mill in a few years during that time He loves to golf and always bet on the course and there is a rumor that he lost $1 mill on one game. He went to Vegas and lost $5 mill in one afternoon. It's not that he couldn't put it back but more so people got on his ass about it and the NBA looked to have found evidence he was betting on games which was going to get him suspended This was only a few years after the Pete Rose situation, with how into gambling and competitive he is, there's no way MJ didn't have some sneaky bets on games somewhere. Pete Rose was it's own debacle, can see the NBA doing anything in it's power to not have that happen to their own, currently playing poster boy.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 4, 2020 12:47:39 GMT -5
MJ would go to Vegas and lose thousands of dollars in one afternoon if not millions. For a man as addicted to winning as he is, you really think he's going to walk away from a table when he's only a little behind. Him and Chuck were gambling bodies and Chuck has admitted himself to losing like $10 mill in a few years during that time He loves to golf and always bet on the course and there is a rumor that he lost $1 mill on one game. He went to Vegas and lost $5 mill in one afternoon. It's not that he couldn't put it back but more so people got on his ass about it and the NBA looked to have found evidence he was betting on games which was going to get him suspended This was only a few years after the Pete Rose situation, with how into gambling and competitive he is, there's no way MJ didn't have some sneaky bets on games somewhere. Pete Rose was it's own debacle, can see the NBA doing anything in it's power to not have that happen to their own, currently playing poster boy. Yea, keep in mind if I remember correctly Jordan was already in sort of trouble for giving I believe a drug dealer a check that he said was supposed to be some type of business check but everyone believes it was for gambling losses I believe the rumor is MJ bet on spreads and points
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Post by MrElijah on May 4, 2020 13:58:54 GMT -5
Dray's prime was those first two years they contended. The year they lost to Cleveland he had career highs in points, rebounds, assists, FG%, 3 pt%, and I think he was a better defender than the following year when he won DMVP. As much as he wants to say that KD messed with their chemistry, KD helped them way more than Green did that whole run. Green is a good player, but he's a swiss army knife. He's a very good defender (no longer elite IMO), he's still a great facilitator on offense, but his shot is booty, he's never been great on the boards, not a guy teams have to gameplan around offensively, and basically just a good passing Robert Covington at this point with a penchant for saying and doing dumb shit. They always show those Olympic team practices, show me the whole scrimmage mfs. Yea, Draymond prime was their first two playoff final years and he's been a good but not great player since. If it wasn't for Draymond kicking LBJ and Barnes missing open shots, they wouldn't have needed KD. He can't talk out the side of his mouth that KD ruined team chemistry when facts are, when he plays, they win. I still don't think they need Draymond going forward, get a decent center and a 4 like Covington and they would be fine and be spending less money Those Olympic scrimmages are probably the stuff of legends. The amount of shit talking on that court would make Kevin Garnett blush They have 2 of the greatest trash talkers at their position(Jordan & Bird) there. No doubt there was hurt feelings and bruises egos. I heard Magic got on them when they half assed it, allegedly during practice he got pissed, threw the ball and said: WE ARE HERE TO f***ING WIN!! And yes the 1993 NBA Playoffs were amazing. And Thunder Dan was an awesome nickname and player.
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Post by cabbageboy on May 4, 2020 14:39:04 GMT -5
Speaking of that 1993 Finals and the Suns, I forgot how awesome a player Kevin Johnson was earlier in his career. He actually was hurt and missed 33 games in the 1993 season (a hernia from trying to lift Oliver Miller when they were messing around, no less). But man for 4 years from 1988-92 KJ averaged 22 points and 11 assists. I remembered him more from the Barkley years when he was hurt a lot and questionably effective. Imagine that Suns team if they had a healthy KJ for 82 games.
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Post by RadcapRadsley on May 4, 2020 19:07:33 GMT -5
Speaking of that 1993 Finals and the Suns, I forgot how awesome a player Kevin Johnson was earlier in his career. He actually was hurt and missed 33 games in the 1993 season (a hernia from trying to lift Oliver Miller when they were messing around, no less). But man for 4 years from 1988-92 KJ averaged 22 points and 11 assists. I remembered him more from the Barkley years when he was hurt a lot and questionably effective. Imagine that Suns team if they had a healthy KJ for 82 games. In addition to that Johnson was the best players on a Suns teams that beat Magics Lakers in the 89-90 playoffs in 5 games ,a season in which the Lakers went 63-19 and Magic won MVP. KJ would be in the Hall Of Fame if he didn't have a a long history of sexual assault incidents
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Post by cabbageboy on May 4, 2020 22:44:40 GMT -5
KJ really only had that 4 year period where he was awesome. After the goofing around with Miller that resulted in a hernia he was injury plagued for the rest of his career, so when you add in various controversies he's an easy guy to leave off a HOF ballot. But yeah, all of this Isiah/Dream Team talk from The Last Dance (and ESPN talk shows) kinda ignores the fact that by 1992 there were several better PGs in the game that got MVP consideration (but didn't sniff the Dream Team: KJ, Mark Price, Tim Hardaway. Terry Porter was also better than Isiah at that point.
It's not like Isiah was some ultra well regarded player when he was playing. He never sniffed an MVP award. In fact in the 1988/89/90 seasons where the Pistons made 3 straight Finals and won 2 titles Isiah finished 12th, 17th (tied with Dumars), and 13th (again tied with Dumars) in the MVP voting. He finished behind Stockton all 3 years and sometimes behind Johnson and Price.
Blind Win Share resumes (and WS per 48) for 5 seasons (1988/89/90/91/92):
Player A: 14.1 (.238), 15.6 (.236), 14.4 (.238), 14.0 (.217), 13.4 (.215) Player B: 7.6 (.124), 7.0 (.115), 6.7 (.107), 3.4 (.098), 5.8 (.095)
I will say that Player B missed 34 games during that 3.4 season, but extrapolate it out over 82 games and it would be fairly similar to the 5.8 season.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 4, 2020 23:00:05 GMT -5
KJ really only had that 4 year period where he was awesome. After the goofing around with Miller that resulted in a hernia he was injury plagued for the rest of his career, so when you add in various controversies he's an easy guy to leave off a HOF ballot. But yeah, all of this Isiah/Dream Team talk from The Last Dance (and ESPN talk shows) kinda ignores the fact that by 1992 there were several better PGs in the game that got MVP consideration (but didn't sniff the Dream Team: KJ, Mark Price, Tim Hardaway. Terry Porter was also better than Isiah at that point. It's not like Isiah was some ultra well regarded player when he was playing. He never sniffed an MVP award. In fact in the 1988/89/90 seasons where the Pistons made 3 straight Finals and won 2 titles Isiah finished 12th, 17th (tied with Dumars), and 13th (again tied with Dumars) in the MVP voting. He finished behind Stockton all 3 years and sometimes behind Johnson and Price. Blind Win Share resumes (and WS per 48) for 5 seasons (1988/89/90/91/92): Player A: 14.1 (.238), 15.6 (.236), 14.4 (.238), 14.0 (.217), 13.4 (.215) Player B: 7.6 (.124), 7.0 (.115), 6.7 (.107), 3.4 (.098), 5.8 (.095) I will say that Player B missed 34 games during that 3.4 season, but extrapolate it out over 82 games and it would be fairly similar to the 5.8 season. Win Shares is a BS thing especially for basketball Isiah was never an MVP guy and saying he really isn't well regarded is cap. That was a well put together team that didn't need Isiah to play outside of himself. When Joe started coming into his own him and Isiah shared the rock. You're forgetting they had Adrian Dantley and then Mark Acquirre, guys who 25-30 points on previous teams to be their big punch and compliment the pieces which is what Acquirre did more then Dantley. Add on Vinnie Johnson as well who can go off
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Post by sfvega on May 5, 2020 7:23:24 GMT -5
KJ really only had that 4 year period where he was awesome. After the goofing around with Miller that resulted in a hernia he was injury plagued for the rest of his career, so when you add in various controversies he's an easy guy to leave off a HOF ballot. But yeah, all of this Isiah/Dream Team talk from The Last Dance (and ESPN talk shows) kinda ignores the fact that by 1992 there were several better PGs in the game that got MVP consideration (but didn't sniff the Dream Team: KJ, Mark Price, Tim Hardaway. Terry Porter was also better than Isiah at that point. It's not like Isiah was some ultra well regarded player when he was playing. He never sniffed an MVP award. In fact in the 1988/89/90 seasons where the Pistons made 3 straight Finals and won 2 titles Isiah finished 12th, 17th (tied with Dumars), and 13th (again tied with Dumars) in the MVP voting. He finished behind Stockton all 3 years and sometimes behind Johnson and Price. Blind Win Share resumes (and WS per 48) for 5 seasons (1988/89/90/91/92): Player A: 14.1 (.238), 15.6 (.236), 14.4 (.238), 14.0 (.217), 13.4 (.215) Player B: 7.6 (.124), 7.0 (.115), 6.7 (.107), 3.4 (.098), 5.8 (.095) I will say that Player B missed 34 games during that 3.4 season, but extrapolate it out over 82 games and it would be fairly similar to the 5.8 season. Win Shares is a BS thing especially for basketball Isiah was never an MVP guy and saying he really isn't well regarded is cap. That was a well put together team that didn't need Isiah to play outside of himself. When Joe started coming into his own him and Isiah shared the rock. You're forgetting they had Adrian Dantley and then Mark Acquirre, guys who 25-30 points on previous teams to be their big punch and compliment the pieces which is what Acquirre did more then Dantley. Add on Vinnie Johnson as well who can go off Yeah, I hate that in baseball, and it's a way more controlled game and more accurate with WAR. But there's never gonna be one singular stat that is perfect enough to be an absolute certainty. The fact of the matter is, stats tell you a lot but also clutchness tells you a lot as well. You bet your ass that I'm taking Isaiah Thomas over Mark Price. The same way I'm taking Klay over Harden today. There are very good players who put up stats and there are very good players who win. Isaiah was a beast at Indiana and he was a beast in Detroit. I disagree with MJ that he's #2 all time, I like Stockton a lot in terms of running an offense. Especially in terms of international ball. Isiah takes too many shots, and even Stockton didn't get a ton of run on the Dream Team. But he did get the ball inside more than Isiah would have.
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Post by cabbageboy on May 5, 2020 8:07:51 GMT -5
So I guess it was obvious Player A was Stockton and Player B was Isiah then. I think the main limitation to Win Shares is that someone can be a great player on a largely mediocre team. For instance, Mitch Richmond on the 1996 version of the Dream Team had only 9.3 WS but the Kings just weren't a particularly good team at 39-43. So trying to compare Richmond with Penny Hardaway in 1996 is questionable since the two teams were not remotely equals. There are some exceptions like Jordan in 1987 with a 16.9 WS (.247 per 48) on a similar 40-42 Bulls team.
Here's why it is interesting with the Isiah/Stockton debate. The Pistons were better than the Jazz during that time period, yet Stockton was still worth far more to his team. The Jazz won 47, 51, and 55 in 1988-90, while the Pistons won 54, 63, and 59. People act like the Pistons were Isiah in the Bird/Magic/Jordan role of unquestioned star player and leader, but I would think if Isiah was so amazing he would easily lead the Pistons in Win Shares the way those other 3 guys did. The Pistons were really a balanced team in this regard, with Dantley, Laimbeer, Dumars, and Rodman (!) leading in that category at various points from 1988-92.
Either way for his career Stockton had a higher FG % than Isiah, was a way better 3 point shooter, better FT shooter, avg. 1 turnover less per game, and was a better defender.
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Post by sfvega on May 5, 2020 8:43:56 GMT -5
So I guess it was obvious Player A was Stockton and Player B was Isiah then. I didn't read your win shares stuff at all. I just agreed with Cap. IMO people trying to quantify all players by one number is flawed. And disagreed with MJ putting Isiah #2 all time. I think most people have Big O or Stockton #2.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 5, 2020 10:02:12 GMT -5
Win Shares is a BS thing especially for basketball Isiah was never an MVP guy and saying he really isn't well regarded is cap. That was a well put together team that didn't need Isiah to play outside of himself. When Joe started coming into his own him and Isiah shared the rock. You're forgetting they had Adrian Dantley and then Mark Acquirre, guys who 25-30 points on previous teams to be their big punch and compliment the pieces which is what Acquirre did more then Dantley. Add on Vinnie Johnson as well who can go off Yeah, I hate that in baseball, and it's a way more controlled game and more accurate with WAR. But there's never gonna be one singular stat that is perfect enough to be an absolute certainty. The fact of the matter is, stats tell you a lot but also clutchness tells you a lot as well. You bet your ass that I'm taking Isaiah Thomas over Mark Price. The same way I'm taking Klay over Harden today. There are very good players who put up stats and there are very good players who win. Isaiah was a beast at Indiana and he was a beast in Detroit. I disagree with MJ that he's #2 all time, I like Stockton a lot in terms of running an offense. Especially in terms of international ball. Isiah takes too many shots, and even Stockton didn't get a ton of run on the Dream Team. But he did get the ball inside more than Isiah would have. Yea, you can't just apply a stat like WAR or Win Shares in basketball. Even in Baseball I think it is overrated but more power to guys like Shin Soo Choo and Jey Heyward getting paid for it Basketball has always been a game you can see with your own eyes who impacts the floor. Stats can tell a lot but stats can also be flawed. If it reasons why a guy like Kevin Love can put up 30 and 15 on Minnesota and a losing team but put him a winning team where he has to sacrifice and he's a 18 and 10 player. Harden scores 35 a game but i'm taking Klay and Steph over them because when it comes down to it i've seen them win and knock down big shots. Isiah was a winner. He's a guy perfectly comfortable with a good team around him where he doesn't have to score 25 PPG. If he played in today NBA, he'd def kill. Yea, I can't put Isiah number 2. He's in the top 5 but he's behind Stockton, Big O and probably reigns just above Kidd and Nash. Isiah was a combo guard who buckled down to play PG but those guys were pure PGs and even then you still talking that Isiah basically averaged close to 20 and 10 for his career.
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Post by sfvega on May 5, 2020 10:22:33 GMT -5
Yeah, I hate that in baseball, and it's a way more controlled game and more accurate with WAR. But there's never gonna be one singular stat that is perfect enough to be an absolute certainty. The fact of the matter is, stats tell you a lot but also clutchness tells you a lot as well. You bet your ass that I'm taking Isaiah Thomas over Mark Price. The same way I'm taking Klay over Harden today. There are very good players who put up stats and there are very good players who win. Isaiah was a beast at Indiana and he was a beast in Detroit. I disagree with MJ that he's #2 all time, I like Stockton a lot in terms of running an offense. Especially in terms of international ball. Isiah takes too many shots, and even Stockton didn't get a ton of run on the Dream Team. But he did get the ball inside more than Isiah would have. Yea, you can't just apply a stat like WAR or Win Shares in basketball. Even in Baseball I think it is overrated but more power to guys like Shin Soo Choo and Jey Heyward getting paid for it Basketball has always been a game you can see with your own eyes who impacts the floor. Stats can tell a lot but stats can also be flawed. If it reasons why a guy like Kevin Love can put up 30 and 15 on Minnesota and a losing team but put him a winning team where he has to sacrifice and he's a 18 and 10 player. Harden scores 35 a game but i'm taking Klay and Steph over them because when it comes down to it i've seen them win and knock down big shots. Isiah was a winner. He's a guy perfectly comfortable with a good team around him where he doesn't have to score 25 PPG. If he played in today NBA, he'd def kill. Yea, I can't put Isiah number 2. He's in the top 5 but he's behind Stockton, Big O and probably reigns just above Kidd and Nash. Isiah was a combo guard who buckled down to play PG but those guys were pure PGs and even then you still talking that Isiah basically averaged close to 20 and 10 for his career. I don't think those Piston teams win the 2 titles and 3 ECF without Thomas. We was a good defender, a great agitator, many times their best offensive player and a better facilitator than he's given credit for. Like Billups, his play opened up Rip's offense. Which isn't to say that Rip or Dumars weren't good offensive players, they definitely were. But they also benefited from their counterparts more than the other way around.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 10:30:54 GMT -5
Reggie Miller really didn't want to be interviewed for this documentary but they managed to talk to him, so I'm looking forward to that. I don't know why he didn't want to be interviewed Reggie is one of the most famous shit talkers of all time, don't be getting modest in your old age Apparently, while he respects Jordan, he really, really does not like to look back at 1998. So much so that ESPN didn't get feedback from him regarding Game 7 of the ECF for an article a week ago. Which, I agree with you; like, you were known for stirring shit up in New York City. Don't suddenly go mum. Own up to it. Anyway, I should've presented the article when I posted this. www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2020/04/20/last-dance-rekindles-millers-hurtful-respect-jordan/5164863002/
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 5, 2020 10:59:39 GMT -5
Yea, you can't just apply a stat like WAR or Win Shares in basketball. Even in Baseball I think it is overrated but more power to guys like Shin Soo Choo and Jey Heyward getting paid for it Basketball has always been a game you can see with your own eyes who impacts the floor. Stats can tell a lot but stats can also be flawed. If it reasons why a guy like Kevin Love can put up 30 and 15 on Minnesota and a losing team but put him a winning team where he has to sacrifice and he's a 18 and 10 player. Harden scores 35 a game but i'm taking Klay and Steph over them because when it comes down to it i've seen them win and knock down big shots. Isiah was a winner. He's a guy perfectly comfortable with a good team around him where he doesn't have to score 25 PPG. If he played in today NBA, he'd def kill. Yea, I can't put Isiah number 2. He's in the top 5 but he's behind Stockton, Big O and probably reigns just above Kidd and Nash. Isiah was a combo guard who buckled down to play PG but those guys were pure PGs and even then you still talking that Isiah basically averaged close to 20 and 10 for his career. I don't think those Piston teams win the 2 titles and 3 ECF without Thomas. We was a good defender, a great agitator, many times their best offensive player and a better facilitator than he's given credit for. Like Billups, his play opened up Rip's offense. Which isn't to say that Rip or Dumars weren't good offensive players, they definitely were. But they also benefited from their counterparts more than the other way around. Isiah did everything while everyone else specialized in a task and it worked for that team. They don't win without him Billups is a perfect contrast. He knew what he had to do to win and did it. As the leader they handled their roles and allowed the other guys to fit into a space and not go overboard. Leadership is highly underrated and a sport like the NBA where egos can tear apart a squad that matters a lot
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