Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 24,163
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Post by Bo Rida on Dec 6, 2021 4:58:25 GMT -5
Back in the day I used to groan at RTD's big reset button, I'm now glad he's coming back to press it.
They wiped out most of the universe, daleks, cybermen, sontarians, all but one dog alien and then just shrugged it off like nothing happened? Worse than that the doctor seemed to be revelling in wiping out entire species. Yaz and Dan didn't seem too cut up about losing the guy they travelled with for the past few years either. But it's ok the daleks are back in the new year special. So guess we are just pretending it never happened?
Being in charge of something like Dr who should essentially mean being a custodian but what Chibnall has done is basically vandalism at this point.
On the plus side at least Jodi got the angel village episode, at least one standout in her run, even that had some questionable lore moments (the two touch thing), the Crimean war episode was pretty good too. The new characters nearly all worked pretty well, until they went nowhere at least.
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Flo360
Hank Scorpio
There is no truth in Wrestling...only Backbumps
Posts: 6,300
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Post by Flo360 on Dec 6, 2021 4:58:27 GMT -5
Also, poor Dan...he wasn't late you bitch! Yikes...
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 23,407
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Post by Legion on Dec 6, 2021 18:07:42 GMT -5
Maybe I'm giving Chibnall too much credit, but it almost felt like he was told to abandon half his story because so much was just left out.
There are lots of really obvious answers to quite a few of the questions, but I dunno, it felt like someone at the BBC finally realised how hated his retcons are and so stopped him before it went all the way in the hope RTD can reignite the popularity and ratings again, without poisoning so much of the base that Chibnall was clearly doing.
And while Who can't survive on just the base, it also can't survive with them so vocally shitting on it
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Dec 6, 2021 20:14:40 GMT -5
Maybe I'm giving Chibnall too much credit, but it almost felt like he was told to abandon half his story because so much was just left out. There are lots of really obvious answers to quite a few of the questions, but I dunno, it felt like someone at the BBC finally realised how hated his retcons are and so stopped him before it went all the way in the hope RTD can reignite the popularity and ratings again, without poisoning so much of the base that Chibnall was clearly doing. And while Who can't survive on just the base, it also can't survive with them so vocally shitting on it Yeah but nothing of this really feels different than his other writing where he has ideas but then doesn't explore them or doesn't really think what the massive changes would mean... Flux was full of that.
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Post by thechase on Dec 7, 2021 4:06:16 GMT -5
Another thing is he was basically cribbing from some of the expanded media (the house of Lungbarrow and Time as a god-like entity) for the more interesting bits.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 24,163
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Post by Bo Rida on Dec 7, 2021 8:41:43 GMT -5
Anybody brave enough to write a timeline on The Grand Serpent's known actions from memory? Including his motivation of those actions if possible?
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Dec 8, 2021 7:59:54 GMT -5
I'm not exactly clear on the above, sorry, but have they tried to retcon the 'Timeless Child' craic or are they actually doubling down on it?
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Post by thechase on Dec 8, 2021 9:55:13 GMT -5
I'm not exactly clear on the above, sorry, but have they tried to retcon the 'Timeless Child' craic or are they actually doubling down on it? They doubled down, but also somewhat walked back on further exploring it at the last minute. The Doctor met the head of Division, who was actually her adoptive mother, and she verified everything The Master told her in series 12 was legit. The Doctor finds her memories are all contained in a fob watch. By Flux's conclusion, The Doctor has the watch in her possession but chooses not to open it and buries it deep within the TARDIS.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 8, 2021 10:08:46 GMT -5
Brave storytelling choices and deaths are fine if you have an interesting story to tell and are talented enough to write it, Chubnall is not. His whole run felt like the almost universally revilled retcon episode of the simpsons where they wiped away Skinner's backstory seemingly just to punish people who pay attention and care. Jodie deserved better than his writing.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Dec 8, 2021 15:32:53 GMT -5
I'm not exactly clear on the above, sorry, but have they tried to retcon the 'Timeless Child' craic or are they actually doubling down on it? They doubled down, but also somewhat walked back on further exploring it at the last minute. The Doctor met the head of Division, who was actually her adoptive mother, and she verified everything The Master told her in series 12 was legit. The Doctor finds her memories are all contained in a fob watch. By Flux's conclusion, The Doctor has the watch in her possession but chooses not to open it and buries it deep within the TARDIS. It's like Chibnall realized that RTD wasn't going to mention ANY of this stuff... so they just like literally threw the conclusion into the garbage chute.
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Burst
El Dandy
*inarticulate squawking*
Posts: 8,622
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Post by Burst on Dec 8, 2021 15:56:02 GMT -5
To be honest, a lot of the criticisms that I agree with about Chibnall's writing and excessive use of retcons and subversions, feels very similar to the criticisms of Rian Johnson & The Last Jedi. Specifically, subverting or deconstructing tropes and expectations for more or less the shock value without really being able to properly follow up on it, and doing it in a way that -in the moment- while you're watching, it feels impressive, but it falls apart the more you ruminate about it afterwards.
I get a lot of what Chibnall was sort of going for, but especially with their departure and RTD coming in, it really does feel like how The Last Jedi almost vindictively swatted away every Chekhov's Gun that The Force Awakens set up and left a tangle of shocking moments (TM) and almost impossible-to-resolve plot threads for Rise of Skywalker to try to clear up.
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Post by thechase on Jan 2, 2022 3:27:45 GMT -5
Might as well soldier on with this thread as we had the latest special last night and there were some callbacks and loose ends tied up from Flux {Spoiler}{Spoiler}The 'dying TARDIS' angle was resolved, and we learn the Daleks blamed The Doctor for the flux smashing through a lot of their armada.
The initial time loops were interesting and Dan proved quite helpful, and did a lot to advance the Doctor and Yaz's story, telling Yaz to own up to not just The Doctor, but herself on how she feels. I don't think we've seen a companion 'struggle' with sexuality issues before, other times we've had companions who were pretty confident in their own skin like Bill Potts and Captain Jack.
The Daleks were creative in their strategies to outfox The Doctor and got the upper hand several times. After a while though, the loops got difficult to keep track of and I barely paid attention to the resolution. Something somehow causes fireworks to go off and the Daleks just suddenly stop sending more executors after The Doctor? A surprise cameo also towards the end with Karl ("I am important") from Jodie's first episode watching the light show at the end. Wonder if he's being set up to end Thirteen's life somehow? Ah, but onto Spring, and another classic monster on the horizon {Spoiler}{Spoiler}Sea Devils at last
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Post by Mr PONYMANIA Mr Jenzie on Jan 2, 2022 13:28:23 GMT -5
excellent episode last night, that thumping soundtrack drove the story and really good characters to use ... and no it's just a massive amount of hero worship from yaz ... because the doctor fully well knows about that!
and another fantastic dalek special too, maybe the cybermen were smarted than just blame DW for all that sontaran nonsense
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,524
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Post by FinalGwen on Jan 2, 2022 13:30:02 GMT -5
excellent episode last night, that thumping soundtrack drove the story and really good characters to use ... and no it's just a massive amount of hero worship from yaz ... because the doctor fully well knows about that! and another fantastic dalek special too, maybe the cybermen were smarted than just blame DW for all that sontaran nonsense Harold, they're lesbians.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Jan 2, 2022 15:26:32 GMT -5
excellent episode last night, that thumping soundtrack drove the story and really good characters to use ... and no it's just a massive amount of hero worship from yaz ... because the doctor fully well knows about that! and another fantastic dalek special too, maybe the cybermen were smarted than just blame DW for all that sontaran nonsense Harold, they're lesbians. Major props for having a companion grow into and acknowledge their sexuality, but it's a narrative beat that coincides onto yet another companion--after Rose, Martha, River, Amy, and Clara--having feelings for the Doctor. Two steps forward, one step back. Although if Yaz does come out, then what was hinted at in Can You Hear Me? makes even more sense in terms of Yaz's struggles as a queer teenage girl of colour. Too bad that Chibnall has only treated Yaz as the companion to ask all the exposition questions. Three seasons in and Yaz is still less of a fully developed character than Nardole, for example. The Chibnall era can be summed up in four words: so many missed opportunities.
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 23,407
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Post by Legion on Jan 2, 2022 16:04:03 GMT -5
Yaz's storyline hits home for me in a few different ways, but it really had better not have a happy ending.
I want the pain and suffering of unrequited best friend crushing. Be realistic.
As for the special, it was pretty crap outside of Aisling Bea just being amazing.
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Post by thechase on Jan 2, 2022 16:13:28 GMT -5
Yaz's storyline hits home for me in a few different ways, but it really had better not have a happy ending. It can't possibly have one, Jodie's regenerating, and we don't know who into, a man or a woman, but either way, she won't be who Yaz fell in love with for much longer. Rose so far has been the only companion we know who adjusted to a different Doctor and still loved the same person, but that's only because Billie stayed on another year. Mandip is also leaving after the last special. On paper, this can cause a great deal of issues with Yaz given what Chibs has teased about her mental state in series 12, but I doubt they'll even bring that up as it's too heavy for a family audience, and especially for twitter.
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 23,407
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Post by Legion on Jan 2, 2022 16:15:39 GMT -5
Yaz's storyline hits home for me in a few different ways, but it really had better not have a happy ending. It can't possibly have one, Jodie's regenerating, and we don't know who into, a man or a woman, but either way, she won't be who Yaz fell in love with for much longer. On paper, this can cause a great deal of issues with Yaz given what Chibs has teased about her mental state in series 12, but I doubt they'll even bring that up as it's too heavy for a family audience, and especially for twitter. She'll probably die too.
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Post by thechase on Jan 2, 2022 16:20:21 GMT -5
It can't possibly have one, Jodie's regenerating, and we don't know who into, a man or a woman, but either way, she won't be who Yaz fell in love with for much longer. On paper, this can cause a great deal of issues with Yaz given what Chibs has teased about her mental state in series 12, but I doubt they'll even bring that up as it's too heavy for a family audience, and especially for twitter. She'll probably die too. When characters 'die' in Modern Who, it's always under conditions which leave them better off than they would otherwise be. Rose-publicly deceased on her world, but thriving with a Meta-Crisis clone of The Doctor in another Amy and Rory-Lived happily ever after to death in another time River Song-Body destroyed but her mind stored with her teammates in the CAL library and allowed to live happily in a simulated reality Clara-Destined to return to Trap Street only after an indefinite period of exploring the universe in a TARDIS with a fellow immortal. Bill Potts- Converted into a Mondassian Cyberman but restored to a living body by her tear duct girlfriend and explores the universe with her, later returns to Earth after breaking up with her.
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 23,407
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Post by Legion on Jan 2, 2022 16:23:19 GMT -5
When characters 'die' in Modern Who, it's always under conditions which leave them better off than they would otherwise be. Rose-publicly deceased on her world, but thriving with a Meta-Crisis clone of The Doctor in another Amy-Lived happily ever after to death in another time Clara-Destined to return to Trap Street only after an indefinite period of exploring the universe. Bill Potts- Converted into a Mondassian Cyberman but restored to a living body by her tear duct girlfriend and explores the universe with her, later returns to Earth after breaking up with her. Whatever they do, it'll be unsatisfactory and likely left to Big Finish to clean up later
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