|
Post by 3cheers4ramirez on Jan 22, 2021 2:46:17 GMT -5
I think that he’s just nostalgic for a bygone era more than anything. Most every generation claims that men were men in their era, but in reality people are pretty much the same just the times change. If all he said was what's been quoted on that Twitter post... then people are being way oversensitive. At worst it's just his opinion, and he even qualified it by saying that that's just how time moves on. He thinks some things were better in the good old days... which is something he shares with about 99% of people on earth.
|
|
|
Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 22, 2021 3:36:14 GMT -5
This, its kind of why i m falling out of interest in a lot of the current product (and some of AEW is this)...It comes off as community theatre mixed with cirque de solele performance and cosplaying as comic book/superhero/disney characters... its probably why a lot of the demo's have shifted off to UFC/MMAAgree completely with everything, especially the bolded part. The demo that made the Attitude Era/MNW so popular is now the audience that watches UFC, and that audience isn't coming back to WWE any time soon, if ever. Taker's points are spot on, and while yes you can blame the companies as well since they ask their talent to work/look a specific way, it doesn't change the fact that there are also major societal changes at work as well (talent today look and act differently than 20-30 years ago). If wrestling was on fire doing what they are doing now, then Taker would look like an idiot for saying what he said. It's actually the opposite. Wrestling has its niche and place in the entertainment landscape, but that's it, and I don't see why Taker's getting bashed here for essentially giving the reasons behind it (obviously there are others like creative, oversaturation, etc, but he mentioned a big reason too). The demo that made the Attitude Era so popular doesn't exist anymore. Not in the way that it matters, at least. People in that age range still exist. But they're people with massive generational turnover. The major societal changes aren't "wrestlers look different", it's that the actual wrestling side of wrestling was way less of a factor to why people liked that era than the cultural aspects of it, and it being filtered through something that at that time and place, they wanted to see. Selling and psychology were not the things casual Attitude Era fans gave any kind of a shit about. Younger fans today don't give a fraction of a damn about what people in the '80s "worked so hard to protect". And don't make the mistake of thinking UFC is a cultural juggernaut right now either; the most recent Fight Night card did worse than Raw does on any week. But the people who left wrestling for MMA were looking for something that wrestling maybe all along couldn't give them, or would no longer give them as the years turned over. People look too uncritically at the idea the Attitude Era was insanely popular without considering all of the cultural factors at work, and think it's something they could magically just pivot back to and win people over with immediately, and it's not. Those people aren't coming back. The story of the fans WWE bled in the intervening years post-Attitude Era are way more interesting as a group to examine than the people caught up in its popularity who left when the culture shifted and they walked away. There still remains no genuine correlation between the idea that wrestlers play video games or are into geeky stuff instead of into hard drugs and strippers, and them being able to perform in a TV show people want to see. I don't know on TV who has a knife and "takes care of things" and who just wants to play fighting games. That's combining gripes you want to make about the product with broad social gripes you want to make separate, and bundling them up like they're one and the same so you can express that side frustration, too.
|
|
Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,038
|
Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jan 22, 2021 3:57:36 GMT -5
Agree completely with everything, especially the bolded part. The demo that made the Attitude Era/MNW so popular is now the audience that watches UFC, and that audience isn't coming back to WWE any time soon, if ever. Taker's points are spot on, and while yes you can blame the companies as well since they ask their talent to work/look a specific way, it doesn't change the fact that there are also major societal changes at work as well (talent today look and act differently than 20-30 years ago). If wrestling was on fire doing what they are doing now, then Taker would look like an idiot for saying what he said. It's actually the opposite. Wrestling has its niche and place in the entertainment landscape, but that's it, and I don't see why Taker's getting bashed here for essentially giving the reasons behind it (obviously there are others like creative, oversaturation, etc, but he mentioned a big reason too). The demo that made the Attitude Era so popular doesn't exist anymore. Not in the way that it matters, at least. People in that age range still exist. But they're people with massive generational turnover. The major societal changes aren't "wrestlers look different", it's that the actual wrestling side of wrestling was way less of a factor to why people liked that era than the cultural aspects of it, and it being filtered through something that at that time and place, they wanted to see. Selling and psychology were not the things casual Attitude Era fans gave any kind of a shit about. Younger fans today don't give a fraction of a damn about what people in the '80s "worked so hard to protect". And don't make the mistake of thinking UFC is a cultural juggernaut right now either; the most recent Fight Night card did worse than Raw does on any/i] week. But the people who left wrestling for MMA were looking for something that wrestling maybe all along couldn't give them, or would no longer give them as the years turned over. People look too uncritically at the idea the Attitude Era was insanely popular without considering all of the cultural factors at work, and think it's something they could magically just pivot back to and win people over with immediately, and it's not. Those people aren't coming back. The story of the fans WWE bled in the intervening years post-Attitude Era are way more interesting as a group to examine than the people caught up in its popularity who left when the culture shifted and they walked away. There still remains no genuine correlation between the idea that wrestlers play video games or are into geeky stuff instead of into hard drugs and strippers, and them being able to perform in a TV show people want to see. I don't know on TV who has a knife and "takes care of things" and who just wants to play fighting games. That's combining gripes you want to make about the product with broad social gripes you want to make separate, and bundling them up like they're one and the same so you can express that side frustration, too. A big thing people in wrestling haven't understood is that in all of their efforts in figuring out how to get that demo back into their shows, they've never bothered to even once ask why they left in the first place. When Nitro finally went off the air in 2001, those fans left forever. They never came back. They didn't come to the WWF, they didn't flock to NWA-TNA, or ROH, or anything else. They stopped watching altogether and never looked back. Thing is: it's not as if the show looks or feels any different now than it did then. The wrestling matches are longer, there's not as much going on in most segments but, outside of that, the show is pretty much the same. So what's the deal? Why was there such a mass permanent exodus? I don't think any thought has been put into answering that question and, as a result, wrestling has just been throwing everything at the wall to chase after a group that couldn't give a flying one about them. Creating an identity crisis in the genre that is wreaking havoc on it from the inside out.
|
|
|
Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 22, 2021 4:13:10 GMT -5
The demo that made the Attitude Era so popular doesn't exist anymore. Not in the way that it matters, at least. People in that age range still exist. But they're people with massive generational turnover. The major societal changes aren't "wrestlers look different", it's that the actual wrestling side of wrestling was way less of a factor to why people liked that era than the cultural aspects of it, and it being filtered through something that at that time and place, they wanted to see. Selling and psychology were not the things casual Attitude Era fans gave any kind of a shit about. Younger fans today don't give a fraction of a damn about what people in the '80s "worked so hard to protect". And don't make the mistake of thinking UFC is a cultural juggernaut right now either; the most recent Fight Night card did worse than Raw does on any/i] week. But the people who left wrestling for MMA were looking for something that wrestling maybe all along couldn't give them, or would no longer give them as the years turned over. People look too uncritically at the idea the Attitude Era was insanely popular without considering all of the cultural factors at work, and think it's something they could magically just pivot back to and win people over with immediately, and it's not. Those people aren't coming back. The story of the fans WWE bled in the intervening years post-Attitude Era are way more interesting as a group to examine than the people caught up in its popularity who left when the culture shifted and they walked away. There still remains no genuine correlation between the idea that wrestlers play video games or are into geeky stuff instead of into hard drugs and strippers, and them being able to perform in a TV show people want to see. I don't know on TV who has a knife and "takes care of things" and who just wants to play fighting games. That's combining gripes you want to make about the product with broad social gripes you want to make separate, and bundling them up like they're one and the same so you can express that side frustration, too. A big thing people in wrestling haven't understood is that in all of their efforts in figuring out how to get that demo back into their shows, they've never bothered to even once ask why they left in the first place. When Nitro finally went off the air in 2001, those fans left forever. They never came back. They didn't come to the WWF, they didn't flock to NWA-TNA, or ROH, or anything else. They stopped watching altogether and never looked back. Thing is: it's not as if the show looks or feels any different now than it did then. The wrestling matches are longer, there's not as much going on in most segments but, outside of that, the show is pretty much the same. So what's the deal? Why was there such a mass permanent exodus? I don't think any thought has been put into answering that question and, as a result, wrestling has just been throwing everything at the wall to chase after a group that couldn't give a flying one about them. Creating an identity crisis in the genre that is wreaking havoc on it from the inside out. Vince loathes the idea of listening to other people and having the audience tell him the problems, so he's let things fester and blindly stumble forward on the notion that he's right and knows what people want. But the WCW die-hards who bailed forever are also a group that interests me. What did they see in one promotion that another couldn't given them? Was is just firm brand loyalty and a pride thing? Had people invested in WCW as the legacy to the promotions of their younger days, and if it was dead, they were simply done? In pre-internet days, had those people simply not known about TNA or ROH or the like, and were long out of caring by the time they might have found out about it? There's so much there that's genuinely interesting to look at that tell way more interesting stories and have much more to say about the business than the people who came on during the Attitude Era entirely for what the Attitude Era was and then left when the show changed and the culture changed.
|
|
|
Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 22, 2021 6:38:57 GMT -5
If Taker thinks the WWE locker room isn't manly enough, wait until he sees that video of Top Flight, Pillman Jr, Starks and co goofing off and selling for Brodie Jr. His head will explode.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 7:00:06 GMT -5
I don’t know about “not shitting on it”, apparently he got right on a “the locker room isn’t REAL men anymore because video games” tangent somewhere in there. "Back in my day, we used to shave our bodies from the neck down, and then spend the rest of our days in tanning beds and getting our hair done. Then we would gossip about each other behind each other's backs but act cool to each other's faces. You know, like real manly men!"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 7:04:38 GMT -5
I think that he’s just nostalgic for a bygone era more than anything. Most every generation claims that men were men in their era, but in reality people are pretty much the same just the times change. If all he said was what's been quoted on that Twitter post... then people are being way oversensitive. At worst it's just his opinion, and he even qualified it by saying that that's just how time moves on. He thinks some things were better in the good old days... which is something he shares with about 99% of people on earth. I'm neither a politician nor a mathmetician, but I highly doubt 99% of people on Earth are yearning for the "good old days".
|
|
|
Post by eJm on Jan 22, 2021 7:08:12 GMT -5
If all he said was what's been quoted on that Twitter post... then people are being way oversensitive. At worst it's just his opinion, and he even qualified it by saying that that's just how time moves on. He thinks some things were better in the good old days... which is something he shares with about 99% of people on earth. I'm neither a politician nor a mathmetician, but I highly doubt 99% of people on Earth are yearning for the "good old days". Not to generalize but I don’t think people who don’t fit the person in my profile picture are pining for those days...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 8:41:42 GMT -5
"I miss when the guys were intimidating, racist and sexist bullies. REAL MEN! "
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 236,212
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 22, 2021 8:46:10 GMT -5
His talk about missing "Real manly men" is just him secretly missing Steven Regal.
|
|
hassanchop
Grimlock
Who are you to doubt Belldandy?
Posts: 14,796
|
Post by hassanchop on Jan 22, 2021 8:58:58 GMT -5
If all he said was what's been quoted on that Twitter post... then people are being way oversensitive. At worst it's just his opinion, and he even qualified it by saying that that's just how time moves on. He thinks some things were better in the good old days... which is something he shares with about 99% of people on earth. I'm neither a politician nor a mathmetician, but I highly doubt 99% of people on Earth are yearning for the "good old days". Depends what they mean by "good old days", that sounds much like a perspective or nuanced thing. I'm sure the young folks of today will say the same thing when they reach 50. And the next young people will laugh at them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 9:11:26 GMT -5
I'm neither a politician nor a mathmetician, but I highly doubt 99% of people on Earth are yearning for the "good old days". Depends what they mean by "good old days", that sounds much like a perspective or nuanced thing. I'm sure the young folks of today will say the same thing when they reach 50. And the next young people will laugh at them. If you say so. I'm pushing 50 myself and don't long for the past at all. I mean, there's older music and movies and stuff I like I guess. But to me "the good old days" was nothing but white people on tv, women barefoot in the kitchen instead of having careers, gay people getting beaten up for simply existing, and me getting made fun of for being Jewish. But yeah, those good old days...
|
|
Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,294
|
Post by Fade on Jan 22, 2021 9:28:17 GMT -5
Surprised they didn’t bring up the stalker storyline. One of the comments though Legit one of the times I laughed hardest during the podcast. Joe going on and on about Dallas cause he had him before and Taker gets all quiet and I’m wondering to myself if he’s thinking “yeah, yeah..I buried that mother f***er”.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 9:43:50 GMT -5
I feel the same way about Taker that I do about Hogan and Warrior. I love the characters they played on TV and have a ton of nostalgia for them, but I don't care for the men who portrayed them at all. Also, just dropping this here as the main thing that soured me on Taker. Mods, please feel free to remove if it breaks any rules, but it is a photo worth seeing, IMO.
|
|
|
Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jan 22, 2021 10:00:53 GMT -5
I feel the same way about Taker that I do about Hogan and Warrior. I love the characters they played on TV and have a ton of nostalgia for them, but I don't care for the men who portrayed them at all. Also, just dropping this here as the main thing that soured me on Taker. Mods, please feel free to remove if it breaks any rules, but it is a photo worth seeing, IMO. It took me a second but WTF?
|
|
|
Post by Viking Hall on Jan 22, 2021 10:47:35 GMT -5
I feel the same way about Taker that I do about Hogan and Warrior. I love the characters they played on TV and have a ton of nostalgia for them, but I don't care for the men who portrayed them at all. Also, just dropping this here as the main thing that soured me on Taker. Mods, please feel free to remove if it breaks any rules, but it is a photo worth seeing, IMO. That picture has been knocking around for years and the t-shirt is from a (now defunct) Chopper company called Dago Choppers. Doesn't make the symbol any less questionable (obviously) but purely for clarity's sake he wasn't walking around in a white power shirt on, he was advertising a bike shop.
|
|
hassanchop
Grimlock
Who are you to doubt Belldandy?
Posts: 14,796
|
Post by hassanchop on Jan 22, 2021 10:55:27 GMT -5
The name Dago is already questionable. I wonder if Teddy Long or Paul Heyman chewed him out for that shirt
|
|
|
Post by Viking Hall on Jan 22, 2021 11:03:37 GMT -5
The name Dago is already questionable. I wonder if Teddy Long or Paul Heyman chewed him out for that shirt Slang for San Diego, where the shop was based.
|
|
|
Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 22, 2021 11:19:50 GMT -5
A bike shop named after a slur and with a logo that's just SS symbol is, even if taken to not be malicious, the most unbelievably, hilariously cursed fumbling of one's business I could ever imagine.
|
|
|
Post by eJm on Jan 22, 2021 11:29:01 GMT -5
A bike shop named after a slur and with a logo that's just SS symbol is, even if taken to not be malicious, the most unbelievably, hilariously cursed fumbling of one's business I could ever imagine. It is sort of like going “No, it’s not the Undertaker unintentionally representing views related to the Nazis, it’s a bike shop unintentionally representing views related to the Nazis” which doesn’t sound that much better.
|
|